Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah

[Angelina]

@amigo de christo, agreed.
The Old Covenant system dealt with sin through repeated sacrifices because the problem of sin had not yet been finally dealt with. But Jesus became the once-for-all sacrifice: "But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God." Hebrews 10:12

If believers were still required to come under the Mosaic Law as a covenant obligation in order to remain justified, it would raise the question:
Was Christ's sacrifice sufficient, or must something still be added?

Paul strongly addresses this idea: "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4

This does not mean the moral character revealed in God's Law is abolished. The Holy Spirit produces the righteousness that the Law pointed toward: "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:4

 

[Nancy]

Hello, I was speaking in regard to the Torah, not just the Noahide laws. Whether or not Jesus can be worshiped in a way that is idolatrous and/or non-idolatrous is an important issue, but the flaw is not with God's command against committing idolatry. Jews parade a Torah scroll around the room during a Torah service and bow, touch it, or kiss it as it passes by them, and while some might consider that to be idolatry, they would be incorrect for the same reason that it is not idolatry to worship Jesus. A Torah scroll is essentially chicken scratch on a dead goat attached to two poles, but it is more than that, it is God's Word, and what what Jews are worshipping is not the physical object, but rather Jews are worshipping God's Word. Jesus has a human body, but he is more than that, he set a perfect example for us to follow of how to embody God's Word by living in sinless obedience to the Torah, so he is God's Word made flesh, and what Christians are worshipping is not his physical body but rather Christians are worshipping God Word. The purpose of God's Word is to teach us how to know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about Him through embodying His character traits. The problem with idolatry is that it misrepresents the character of God. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), so if he were anything less than that, then worshipping him would have been idolatry, but because he is all of that, then the way to worship him is exactly the same as the way to worship the Father, so our good works in obedience to the Torah worship both the Father and the Son and it makes no difference to specify that our good works worship one or the other.

That is not at all what I was saying. What i was trying to say is that the 1st of the 7 Noahide laws is to have no other gods before us. Worshipping Jesus to them IS idolatry and one day soon, many will get be-headed for not denying Him.
Jesus said to Love God and love neighbor, the rest of the commandments (the ten) will naturally fall into place.

 

[Soyeong]

I disagree

1) Christ Followed the Torah perfectly, but Christ actually showed his followers the goals of the Torah. You make it sound like the Torah was a goal in and of itself. The Torah has been described as a kind of "Gospel" in the Old Testament, and this fits in with the late Shadow terminology because it literally was. Getting saved by Moses with the plagues is most definitely a kind of Salvation from being slowly worked death in the hot sun of Egypt!. In that sense, the Torah was very reasonable. The Torah is however burdensome from a stand point of absolute perfection, where he even saint James said it was so in the book of Acts.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3).

The Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23 called for repentance from our disobedience to the Torah, so that is a central part of the Gospel, not a kind of "Gospel".

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of the Torah is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. It is contradictory for someone to think that they need salvation from sin while also thinking that they have no obligation to obey the Torah.

In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. James did not say that the Torah was burdensome.

2) The Torah is inferior to the Gospel because it did not give eternal life!

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, the Torah is our very life. In Leviticus 18:5, those who obey the Torah will attain life by it. In Proverbs 3:16-18, the Torah is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Revelation 22:14, those who kept God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so the experience of getting to be a doer of the Torah is God's gift of eternal life.

Key Bible Verses (Easy Copy-Paste Format)​

These drive home that the Torah/Law was not given to grant eternal life (theosis, divine life). Eternal life comes through the promise to Abraham, fulfilled in Christ (faith, not works of Torah). Fr. De Young often highlights these in Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews contexts.
Galatians 3:21 (core verse Fr. De Young cites directly):

God did give the Torah as a way to earn the promise or our righteousness as the result, but rather the only way to receive them is through faith, however, that does not mean that there is no connection between them. The promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because they did that in obedience to the Torah (Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, Deuteronomy 30:16). The Torah is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed by walking in God's way (Psalm 119:1-3), so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplies and are a blessing to the nations in according with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and by teaching them to obey the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel (Acts 3:25-26). It is contradictory for someone to want to have the blessing of Abraham while not wanting to follow the Torah's instructions for how to receive the blessing of Abraham.

While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Torah will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of the Torah other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which was aware declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Torah (Romans 3:28-31).

Galatians 3:10-14, 16-18 (context on Torah vs. Abrahamic promise):

According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so it would absurd to interpret Galatians 3:10 as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law comes under a curse straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law and that everyone who rely on works of the law instead come under that curse. God did not give the Torah as a curse but as instructions for teaching us how to not be cursed, so Jesus free us from the curse of the Torah is freeing us to enjoy the blessing of getting to be a doer of the Torah.

Romans 3:20 (and surrounding; law reveals sin, doesn’t justify):

If you agree that the Torah gives us knowledge of what sin is and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should be arguing in favor of obeying the Torah.

Romans 7:10 (the commandment was for life, but brought death because of sin):

In Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that the Torah is good and that it was not that which is good that brought death to him.

Hebrews 7:18-19 (law made nothing perfect; better hope in Christ):

The Torah is perfect (Psalm 19:7), so it was not given as a way of becoming prefect, but rather it was given to describe the behavior of those who have been made perfect.

Hebrews 8:7-8, 13 (first covenant faultless? No; becoming obsolete):

Hebrews 87-9 does not say that the fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was with the Torah but with the people for not continuing in their covenant, so the solution to the problem was not to do away with the Torah but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying it, which is why the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our heart (Hebrews 8:10), so the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete does not mean that we should no longer obey the Torah.

John 5:39-40 (Jesus to the Jews: “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.”)

I've quoted many verses that show that eternal life can be found in the Scriptures, so the Pharisees were correct to sear for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scripture is to teach us how to know Christ and to enter into a relationship with him for eternal life.

These show the Torah’s role was not earning eternal life—it managed sin, maintained holiness for God’s presence among Israel, and pointed forward to Christ. Eternal life was always the Abrahamic promise, inherited by faith in Christ.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about what is intrinsically requires to experience the gift of eternal life, not about the way to be good enough to earn it as the result. The Torah was never given as a way of earning eternal life even as the result of having perfect obedience to it, but that does not mean that eternal life does not require us to be a doer of the Torah through faith in Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

This is patently false! All the so called "paganized" Christian holidays did not start until 2 centuries or more after the New Testament era. The Judaizers is the actual historic context of this passage.

Colossians 2:16 by itself leaves room for two possible scenarios:

1.) The Colossians were not celebrating God's feasts, they were being judged by Jews because they were not, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for not celebrating them.

2.) The Colossians were celebrating God's tests, they were being judged by pagans because they were, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for celebrating them.

There is nothing that Paul described about the views of the people who were judging the Colossians that suggests that they were being judged by Judaizers, but rather being judged by those promoting human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body is all consistent with them being judged by pagans. Again, those promoting asceticism and severity to the body would be judging people for celebrating feasts, not for refraining from doing that.

Torahists that want to dismiss the Church Fathers need to take care because they themselves are like the tail of dog that thinks it is going to wag the entire dog. I got to say, I have been shocked talking to my friend over 2 years ago. Talking about his conceptions of the ancient Church, especially the different problems coming from the Pharisees. I pointed out the problems of the Pharisees resisting Christ, even though I acknowledged their were many good ones and that I considered the Pharisees a sympathetic movement a kind of cautionary tale of "There but for the Grace of God go I!". But my friend then shocked me, saying "You know you can have a synagogues with no rabbinic system" (Karaite Judaism) And I was immediately suspicious because there was no mention of this in Josephus and Early Enough historians, meaning this would likely be a new movement, post the Biblical era. And sure enough, I did find that confirmed, The Earliest we can find Karaites is around 720 AD in Nineveh Iraq! But my friend seems to assume them as a pure form of his own kind of Judaism from the get go.

I've studied Justin Martyr's Monologue with Trypho and I pretty unimpressed to put it politely. He clearly did not understand the role of the Jews or of the Torah, such as with him holding the position that God gave the Torah as a punishment to Jews when the Bible says that it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).

In regard to the debate between the school of Hillel and the school of Shammai, the school of Hillel is what won out to become Orthodox Judaism and there is strong agreement between what Jesus taught and the school of Hillel. For reference, Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel, who argued in defense of early Christians (Acts 5:34)who was Paul's rabbi (Acts 22:3). In Deuteronomy 17:8-13, it gives authority to priests and judges to make rulings about how to correctly obey the Torah that the community was obligated to obey, and in Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus recognized that the scribes and the Pharisees had this authority by saying that they sit in the Seat of Moses and by instructing his followers to do and observe all that they said. It is possible for someone to practice Judaism while rejecting rabbinic traditions, such as with Karaite or Reform Judaism, but they split off from Orthodox Judaism much later. Some Torah observant Christians interpret the phrase "works of the law" as Paul speaking in opposition to the Oral Torah, so they align with Karaite Jews in rejecting rabbinic traditions, though they are just following a different set of traditions.

As far as the anti-Semitic remarks we should not forget the actual persecution of Christians spurred on by the Jews at this time, as well as the many slanderous and blasphemous sayings about Christ in the Talmud and the oral tradition that preceded it. But back to my friend, it is almost amazing to me the ability to dismiss Apostolic Fathers who themselves were mentored by the very Apostles, just because there teaching does not fit your own Self Confirming Bias. I mean besides the various scriptures that nakedly go against the Torahist agenda, you got other ones too that likewise bolster the authority of such people from scripture as far as establishing and mentoring the next generation of leadership with the laying on of hands, establishing things "in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses", the actual rabbinic term of "Binding and Loosening" used in the Great Commission, and the One Body Ecclesiology of Christianity.

Jews have faced persecution from Christians over the course of the past two thousands years, so it is certainly easy to understand why there was tension between the two groups, but someone making anti-Semitic remarks nevertheless shows that they do not understand the role of the Jews or of the Torah. In Romans 9:3, Paul expressed a willingness to give up his salvation if it meant that his Jewish kinsmen could be saved, so if someone misses the love expressed for Jews in the Bible, then they have a fundamental misunderstanding of it. The expulsion of the Jews from Rome happened around 49-50 AD, so splits were happening fairly early that the ECF were exacerbating.

While it might make sense to you to interpret the Apostles as expressing views that are in disagreement with what the considered to be Scripture and that would make them false prophets according to Deuteronomy 13, it I consider them to be servants of God, so I reject interpreting them as speaking against obeying the Torah.

Besides all this there is also the important concept of Alethia, Truth in the Greek, as in objective truth. There really is a shocking lack of it in the other side. And this has been a point I have really raised to my friend. "Where are these ancient Messianic Synagogues?" Really the New Testament should be written differently if his side was right, or at least there should be some kind of Ebionite / Messianic Equivalent to things on my side. I mean if his side had any truth, you would expect some kind of Apostolic Instruction on Keeping the Festivals and some of "Essential" Mitzot from the Torah. But you don't have any of that! What you got are folks who are anti-Oral Torah who are defacto following The Modus Operandi of Talmudic Judaism even though they disagree with it's formal Theology!! This is really shocking, if you think about it. In ancient Christianity we got a concept called "LEx Orandi, Lex Credendi. The rule of worship, is the rule of Faith/ belief, and it comes from the earliest times of Judaism itself, that the Great Prayers and Hymns of Judaism like the Shema, the Davidic psalms with their prophetic prophesies etc. were not just prayers but also statements of doctrinal belief. But very odd and unusual to have largely unbelievers making your form of worship. I will however note, I am not categorically against Messianic Judaism as far as being some kind of End Time Witness or Ministry to traditional Jews.

There were Christians who continued to follow Christ's example of obedience to the Torah, such as with the Ebionites and the Nazarenes. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb and then concluded that we should therefore continue to celebrate Passover. I agree that Jewish prayers are important and statements of doctrinal belief. Many Jews believe in the Messiah, so I do not consider them to be unbelievers. Even if you do not agree that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to the Torah, there is still much value in Messianic Judaism teaching how to understand the NT in light of its Jewish cultural context.

 

[Soyeong]

That is not at all what I was saying. What i was trying to say is that the 1st of the 7 Noahide laws is to have no other gods before us. Worshipping Jesus to them IS idolatry and one day soon, many will get be-headed for not denying Him.
Jesus said to Love God and love neighbor, the rest of the commandments (the ten) will naturally fall into place.

How can it be idolatry to worship Jesus when the way to worship Jesus is exactly the same as the way to worship the Father? That would mean that everyone who worships the Father is also committing idolatry.

 

[amigo de christo]

How can it be idolatry to worship Jesus when the way to worship Jesus is exactly the same as the way to worship the Father? That would mean that everyone who worships the Father is also committing idolatry.

Yea rather , HOW can one be HONORING THE SON
if they wont acknowledge The dire necessity for to have to beleive on HIM and all things HE did say .
Some might wanna go tell their inclusive ones that serious dire reminder .
NO MAN , NO WOMAN is honoring the SON when they fail to BELEIEVE on HIM
and thus call HIM A LIAR and say , HEY we dont beleive YOU DID THIS nor that we have to believe it .
And now a word .
LORD who then can be saved . WITH MAN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE , BUT NOT WITH GOD .
And what was it that GOD determined by how to SAVE MAN .
For it pleased the Father that by the preaching to save those WHO BELIEVE . NOT THOSE WHO REJECT
and follow false religoins , or jews that reject and try and keep the law .
FOR EVEN THE PROPHETS , EVEN MOSES , even the TORAH spoke of HIM .
HAD anyone heard MOSES , they had BELEIVED ON JESUS , for moses spoke and wrote of HIM .
IF ANY truly did hear the law , THEY HAD BELEIVED ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
FAITH . Now abraham i know had faith . GOD spoke , abraham beleived and obeyed .
Yet lastly GOD has spoken unto us by the SON , AND IT DARN SURE DONT SEEM Like many be heeding and a hearing HIM .
My advice , Time for all to hear and TO BELIEVE THE VERY WORDS of JESUS CHRIST
and all things the apostels also left us in said bible . Not picking and choosing as many do
and do so unto their own destruction . but rather , as wee tiny child , JUST BELIEVING THE TRUTH .
And by the signs of the times , WE just aint got much time left .
Nor does any know the hour his soul departs his body . All other religoins are of the darkness .
As are all jews STILL in UNBELEIF on JESUS THE GLORIOUS CHRIST .
SO i suggest we point to CHRIST and speak CHRIST and HIM crucified .
Cause JESUS dont honor any sin either , NOR UNBELEIF .

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Colossians 2:16 by itself leaves room for two possible scenarios:

1.) The Colossians were not celebrating God's feasts, they were being judged by Jews because they were not, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for not celebrating them.

2.) The Colossians were celebrating God's tests, they were being judged by pagans because they were, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for celebrating them.

There is nothing that Paul described about the views of the people who were judging the Colossians that suggests that they were being judged by Judaizers, but rather being judged by those promoting human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body is all consistent with them being judged by pagans. Again, those promoting asceticism and severity to the body would be judging people for celebrating feasts, not for refraining from doing that.

Freedom From Human Rules​

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.


Do you believe these are a "Shadow" of the things to Come in Christ? Or are they more than that and Paul was wrong?


There are other things that suggest a Jewish context. The mention of the worship of Angels for instance, "8 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you." This sounds to me like some of the Occult things going on with Early Kabbalism, Merkavism, and the folks that were syncretistic with such things. I did actually run a grok study on that just now.


Besides that there is the "Eating and Drinking" mentioning which of course is a big deal as far as keeping Koshur goes. So I believe my friend you're in denial.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

@Soyeong I did ask Grok to look for other things in the epistle that I might have missed to suggest Judaizers as the context and this is what it said. "
Yes, Colossians 2:16–17 presents the festivals, New Moons, and Sabbaths (along with food/drink regulations) as "a shadow of the things to come," with the reality (sōma, body/substance) found in Christ. This is the plain reading of the text in context. Paul is not dismissing their original value under the old covenant but arguing they pointed forward to fulfillment in Jesus. Your friend’s pushback seems to resist this typological/fulfillment framework common in the New Testament (e.g., Hebrews 8–10 on the temple system as shadow; Matthew 5:17 on fulfillment).

Broader Context in Colossians 2​

The chapter forms a unified warning against a syncretic "philosophy" (v. 8) that mixes:

• Jewish elements — Dietary laws ("what you eat or drink"), calendrical observances (festivals, New Moon, Sabbath), and possibly circumcision (v. 11–12, though reframed spiritually).
• Mystical/ascetic elements — Self-abasement/false humility, worship of angels, visions, and regulations (vv. 18, 20–23).

Paul contrasts this with Christ’s supremacy (Col 1–2 overall): He is the image of the invisible God (1:15), the one in whom "all the fullness of deity dwells bodily" (2:9), the head of the body (2:19), and the one who triumphs over powers (2:15). Believers are "filled in Him" (2:10), circumcised "not with hands" (spiritual, 2:11), buried/raised with Him in baptism (2:12), and forgiven (2:13–14). No need to submit to "elemental spirits/principles of the world" (stoicheia tou kosmou, vv. 8, 20) or human traditions/regulations that lack lasting value (v. 23).

On "elemental spirits" (stoicheia): This term can mean basic principles, elemental forces (earth/air/etc.), or spiritual powers/demons behind pagan or legalistic systems. In context, it ties to the false teaching’s regulations and philosophy — whether Jewish-mystical or pagan-influenced. Paul says believers have "died" to them with Christ (v. 20), so why submit?

Other Jewish/Mystical/Contextual Hints Across the Epistle​

You mentioned eating/drinking (kosher), worship of angels (Merkabah/Hekhalot precursors to early Kabbalism), and the shadow language. Here are additional supporting elements I see:

• Circumcision and "handwritten certificate" (2:11–14): Spiritual circumcision "of Christ" contrasts physical (a key Judaizing marker, cf. Galatians). The "record of debt" nailed to the cross evokes Torah obligations or legal accusations canceled in Christ.
• "Philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition" (2:8): Echoes critiques of Pharisaic traditions (Mark 7) or emerging mystical-esoteric speculations. The Colossian error likely blended Jewish mysticism (angelic ascents, visions) with local pagan ideas.
• Triumph over powers (2:15): Christ disarms rulers/authorities (spiritual forces, possibly including the stoicheia or angelic intermediaries). This undercuts any system elevating angels or cosmic principles.
• Whole epistle themes:
  • Christ’s cosmic supremacy (Col 1:15–20): Creation, sustenance, reconciliation of "all things" — counters any lesser mediators or partial revelations via angels/festivals.
  • Mystery revealed in Christ (1:26–27; 2:2): The true mystery is "Christ in you, the hope of glory," not hidden gnosis or visionary elitism.
  • Warning against being "taken captive" or "disqualified" (2:8, 18): Language of spiritual competition/prize, fitting ascetic-mystical groups claiming superior access.
  • Ethical outworking (Col 3–4): Focus shifts to new life in Christ (put off old self, put on new), household codes, prayer — grounded in the gospel, not calendrical observance.

Scholars often describe the Colossian heresy as a Jewish-Christian syncretism with mystical/ascetic tendencies (possibly influenced by Essene-like or proto-Merkabah groups) plus Phrygian pagan elements. Not full "Judaizers" like in Galatians (who demanded full Torah for Gentiles), but similar pressure to add observances and esoteric practices for "fullness."

Shadow vs. "More Than That"?​

Paul’s "shadow" (Greek skia) language is typological: Old covenant practices had real value as pointers (like a shadow outlining a body) but are fulfilled and transcended in Christ, the reality. This doesn’t mean they were bad or useless — they taught, disciplined, and foreshadowed (cf. Galatians 3:24 on the law as guardian; Hebrews on better covenant). But for believers (Jew or Gentile), insisting on them as binding or superior risks legalism, division, and distraction from Christ.

Your friend may see ongoing validity (e.g., as voluntary, cultural, or prophetic), which some Messianic/Hebrew Roots groups argue. However, the epistle’s rhetoric strongly subordinates them: "do not let anyone judge you" on these matters. Freedom in Christ includes liberty regarding the calendar for Gentiles (and even Jewish believers in mixed communities), while guarding against pride or syncretism. This fits Paul’s broader pattern (Romans 14 on disputable matters; Galatians against returning to "weak and miserable forces").

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I'm finally getting at your covering the various Bible passages @Soyeong but shaking my head.

1) The Fact that the Torah does not grant eternal life (as previous mentioned) is a straight up and extremely important fact. I really wanted to cover Fr. De Young's expedition of it more, this was concerning erroneous ideas in Calvinism where it is assumed that our Eternal Life in Christ comes from Christ perfect fulfillment of the Torah. As I blogged to my friend a few months back


"Let's not loose sight of this past insight (name) Tying It to De Young's Argument (Deeper Integration)
For those new to the conversation: Rabbi Tovia Singer is a well-known Jewish counter-missionary who often debates Christian street preachers. He frequently argues that Christian theology (especially Protestant views of atonement) reads ideas into the Hebrew Bible that simply aren’t there — like the claim that perfect obedience to the Torah earns eternal life in heaven, or that breaking it sends you to eternal hell. He points out that Deuteronomy 28–30 and Leviticus 26 actually describe very this-worldly, national blessings and curses for Israel (long life and prosperity in the land vs. famine, exile, and invasion).

I don’t ultimately agree with Singer’s rejection of the New Testament, but his textual observations are sharp and worth wrestling with. That’s why Fr. Stephen De Young’s take is so helpful.

Fr. Stephen De Young is an Orthodox priest, biblical scholar, and co-host of the Lord of Spirits podcast. In his episode “Blessings and Curses” he makes almost the exact same point — but from a Christian perspective that sees fulfillment rather than contradiction.
De Young notes that the Torah’s blessings and curses are this-worldly and corporate for Israel in the land: fertility, security, long life — or famine, defeat, and exile. The Torah never once says “if you keep all these commandments perfectly, you earn eternal heavenly life as a wage,” nor does it threaten eternal conscious torment for failure. Those ideas aren’t in the text. Paul in Galatians 3 is referring to the visible Deuteronomic national curse Israel was under (Roman rule, etc.). Christ redeems us from that curse by becoming a curse Himself, so the Abrahamic blessing (faith, the Spirit, Gentiles included) can flow freely.
Just saw a good thread on Christianity Board called “Why Christians not under the Torah” discussing Romans 6:14 and Galatians 5:18. The discussion hits the usual notes: Gentiles were never under the full Sinai covenant, Jewish believers died to the law in Christ, and we’re now under the “law of Christ” led by the Spirit.
De Young’s framework fits and sharpens it: Christians are not under the Torah as the old covenant system with its national sanctions and boundary markers. The old system managed sin provisionally. The Messiah fulfills it by defeating the deeper problem (sin, death, the powers) and brings us into new-covenant reality — eternal life as communion with God (John 17:3), not a merit transaction.
For my Messianic Rabbi friend this is the exact tension Singer presses. If we want to stay faithful to the Torah’s own categories, we shouldn’t import later systematic assumptions either. The apostles show the law’s goodness is fulfilled, not abolished, in the risen Christ and the law written on the heart."



2) Besides this you have the literal words of Apollos or Saint Paul that says the Old Covenant was imperfect, and lays out why in the book of Hebrews the need for shedding of blood being the most noticeable. As far as David saying your Torah is "perfect" in the Psalms I would say sure, idiomatically. Compared to Human wisdom yes, but is it really the best compared to the New Covenant this really reminds me of Christ talking about "The New Wine Skin", when asked about why his disciples were not fasting like the Pharisees.

Jesus Questioned About Fasting​

33 They said to him, “John’s disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking.”

34 Jesus answered, “Can you make the friends of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? 35 But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; in those days they will fast.”

36 He told them this parable: “No one tears a piece out of a new garment to patch an old one. Otherwise, they will have torn the new garment, and the patch from the new will not match the old. 37 And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine will burst the skins; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. 38 No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. 39 And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, ‘The old is better.’”


And this seems to be born out when you actually look up the actual use of the word in Hebrews 8:7. Namely we have a better covenant, than that of Early Generations, even though such people like the Pharisees were suspicious of such things. What is funny is Torahists doing their best to straddle both Covenants with their foot in each one.


Englishman's Concordance
ἄμεμπτος (amemptos) — 2 Occurrences
Philippians 3:6 Adj-NMS
GRK: νόμῳ γενόμενος ἄμεμπτος
NAS: which is in the Law, found blameless.
KJV: the law, blameless.
INT: [the] law having become blameless

Hebrews 8:7 Adj-NFS
GRK: ἐκείνη ἦν ἄμεμπτος οὐκ ἂν
NAS: [covenant] had been faultless, there would have been no
KJV: [covenant] had been faultless, then should
INT: that [one] were faultless not anyhow

 

[Pavel Mosko]

What is funny is Torahists doing their best to straddle both Covenants with their foot in each one.

I might as well include this summary of a video from Professor Solberg of the Biblical Roots Channel. I was actually thinking of doing a Thread on it somewhere on the Board.


Expanded Summary Treatment: Rob Solberg – “Why We Cannot Follow the Gospel of Jesus and the Law of Moses at the Same Time”
Rob Solberg’s video offers a clear, scripture-driven case against combining full Torah observance with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He argues that while the Torah is good, beautiful, and foundational to the Christian Bible, attempting to live under both the old covenant Law of Moses and the new covenant Gospel creates an untenable, double-minded position that dilutes devotion to Christ. The teaching is structured around four-and-a-half key reasons showing why the two systems are fundamentally incompatible. Solberg acknowledges the sincere motives many have when exploring Hebrew Roots or Torah-observant Christianity but warns of its dangers.

Introduction: Good Intentions and a Slippery Slope​

Solberg begins by noting that many Christians drawn to Torahism start with positive desires: a deeper faith, greater understanding of the Bible’s Hebrew roots, and a sincere wish to please God. Practices like eating biblically clean foods, observing Torah feasts, avoiding Christmas and Easter, or keeping a seventh-day Sabbath often appeal as ways to connect more authentically with Scripture.
He references Michael Brown’s four stages many experience on this path: it first fascinates with fresh insights into ancient contexts, then stimulates further study. Soon, however, things become complicated—reconciling Torah commands (such as animal sacrifices) with New Testament teachings about Jesus’ finished work, deciding how to handle holidays, or navigating social situations like meals with non-observant friends. Eventually, the focus suffocates the believer: faith narrows to detailed rules about food and calendars rather than sharing the Gospel or living as Christ’s hands and feet in the world.

Solberg adds a fifth stage: legislate. At this point, some begin pressuring or judging other Christians to adopt the same observances. He is quick to clarify that personal choices like Sabbath-keeping or kosher eating are permitted in Christian freedom and not sinful. However, they are not required, and they contribute nothing to one’s righteousness before God, which rests entirely on faith in Jesus. The core question becomes: What is the proper role and purpose of the Mosaic Law for followers of Jesus today? The answer, Solberg contends, is that we cannot pursue both grace and the works of the Law without compromising the Gospel.

Reason 1: Atonement for Sin​

Under the Torah, sin is addressed through repeated animal sacrifices, most prominently the annual Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) rituals described in Leviticus 16. The high priest would make atonement for the people year after year. Some in the Hebrew Roots movement anticipate a future rebuilt temple where these sacrifices would resume.
The New Testament, however, presents Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross as “once for all.” Hebrews 10 explains that the blood of bulls and goats could never truly take away sins—it served only as a reminder. Jesus’ offering ended the need for any further sacrifice for sin. These are mutually exclusive approaches: If ongoing animal sacrifices are still required, then Christ’s death accomplished nothing substantial. Conversely, if Jesus truly provided the final atonement, the Torah’s sacrificial system has fulfilled its God-given, temporary purpose and is no longer in force. Scripture does not allow a hybrid approach.

Reason 2: The Priesthood​

The Torah establishes a strict Levitical priesthood. Only descendants of Levi, and specifically Aaron’s line for high priests, could perform temple services and mediate between God and the people.
In the New Testament, this changes dramatically. All believers—regardless of tribal ancestry—are described as a holy priesthood called to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:5). Revelation refers to believers as priests of God multiple times. Even the apostle Paul, from the tribe of Benjamin rather than Levi, speaks of his ministry to the Gentiles in priestly terms (Romans 15:16), and Romans 12:1 calls on all believers to present their bodies as living sacrifices.
Most significantly, Jesus Himself serves as our eternal High Priest—not after the Levitical (Aaronic) order, but after the order of Melchizedek, a priesthood that existed long before the Law was given (Hebrews 6–7). Hebrews 7:12 explicitly states that a change in priesthood necessitates a change in the law. Jesus descended from Judah, a tribe with no priestly rights under Moses’ Law. These two priesthoods cannot coexist: If the Levitical system remains binding, the New Testament’s teachings about believer-priesthood and Christ’s high priesthood violate Torah. If the New Testament reality is true, the old priesthood has served its purpose and been superseded.

Reason 3: The Temple​

Solberg highlights the extraordinary beauty, detail, symbolism, and richness of God’s instructions for the tabernacle and temple in the Torah. These structures stood at the heart of Israel’s worship, housing God’s presence and facilitating sacrifices.
The New Testament reorients this reality around Christ and His people. Jesus presents Himself as the true Temple, and believers collectively become the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. Maintaining the full Torah temple system alongside the Gospel creates irreconcilable practical and theological conflicts, particularly around ongoing sacrifices and access to God’s presence. The old shadows find their fulfillment in the new reality.

Reason 4: The Veil​

In the Torah, a physical veil separated the Holy of Holies, restricting access to God’s presence. Only the high priest could enter, and only once a year on the Day of Atonement.
At the moment of Jesus’ death, the temple veil tore from top to bottom (Matthew 27), dramatically symbolizing new, open access to God for all believers through Christ. No longer is there a barrier or exclusive mediator. Attempting to uphold the Torah’s system of restricted access while embracing the Gospel’s open invitation creates a contradictory view of how people relate to God.

Reason 4.5: Circumcision​

As a concise additional illustration, Solberg points to circumcision—the covenant sign commanded in the Torah for males. The New Testament (Acts 15 and Galatians) makes clear that this is not required for Gentile believers. The emphasis shifts to circumcision of the heart. Paul strongly resisted imposing this as a continuing obligation, viewing it as a burdensome yoke. This example underscores the broader principle: many Torah ceremonies and signs served as pointers that are fulfilled in Christ rather than carried forward in their literal form.

Conclusion and Pastoral Close​

Solberg wraps up by affirming the Torah’s enduring value as Scripture while insisting on proper orientation: it points forward to Christ and is not an additional set of requirements layered onto the Gospel. Christians enjoy freedom in Christ—certain practices may be chosen personally—but they are not obligatory and do not improve one’s standing with God. Righteousness comes through faith alone.
Trying to hold both systems leads to double-mindedness and shifts the center of faith away from Jesus and onto rule-keeping. The Gospel calls believers to freedom, mission, and relationship rather than suffocating legalism. Solberg’s tone throughout remains respectful toward the Torah and those sincerely seeking deeper roots, while firmly urging clarity on the new covenant’s implications.