Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah

[Angelina]

@amigo de christo, agreed.
The Old Covenant system dealt with sin through repeated sacrifices because the problem of sin had not yet been finally dealt with. But Jesus became the once-for-all sacrifice: "But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God." Hebrews 10:12

If believers were still required to come under the Mosaic Law as a covenant obligation in order to remain justified, it would raise the question:
Was Christ's sacrifice sufficient, or must something still be added?

Paul strongly addresses this idea: "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4

This does not mean the moral character revealed in God's Law is abolished. The Holy Spirit produces the righteousness that the Law pointed toward: "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:4

 

[Nancy]

Hello, I was speaking in regard to the Torah, not just the Noahide laws. Whether or not Jesus can be worshiped in a way that is idolatrous and/or non-idolatrous is an important issue, but the flaw is not with God's command against committing idolatry. Jews parade a Torah scroll around the room during a Torah service and bow, touch it, or kiss it as it passes by them, and while some might consider that to be idolatry, they would be incorrect for the same reason that it is not idolatry to worship Jesus. A Torah scroll is essentially chicken scratch on a dead goat attached to two poles, but it is more than that, it is God's Word, and what what Jews are worshipping is not the physical object, but rather Jews are worshipping God's Word. Jesus has a human body, but he is more than that, he set a perfect example for us to follow of how to embody God's Word by living in sinless obedience to the Torah, so he is God's Word made flesh, and what Christians are worshipping is not his physical body but rather Christians are worshipping God Word. The purpose of God's Word is to teach us how to know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about Him through embodying His character traits. The problem with idolatry is that it misrepresents the character of God. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), so if he were anything less than that, then worshipping him would have been idolatry, but because he is all of that, then the way to worship him is exactly the same as the way to worship the Father, so our good works in obedience to the Torah worship both the Father and the Son and it makes no difference to specify that our good works worship one or the other.

That is not at all what I was saying. What i was trying to say is that the 1st of the 7 Noahide laws is to have no other gods before us. Worshipping Jesus to them IS idolatry and one day soon, many will get be-headed for not denying Him.
Jesus said to Love God and love neighbor, the rest of the commandments (the ten) will naturally fall into place.

 

[Soyeong]

I disagree

1) Christ Followed the Torah perfectly, but Christ actually showed his followers the goals of the Torah. You make it sound like the Torah was a goal in and of itself. The Torah has been described as a kind of "Gospel" in the Old Testament, and this fits in with the late Shadow terminology because it literally was. Getting saved by Moses with the plagues is most definitely a kind of Salvation from being slowly worked death in the hot sun of Egypt!. In that sense, the Torah was very reasonable. The Torah is however burdensome from a stand point of absolute perfection, where he even saint James said it was so in the book of Acts.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3).

The Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23 called for repentance from our disobedience to the Torah, so that is a central part of the Gospel, not a kind of "Gospel".

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of the Torah is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. It is contradictory for someone to think that they need salvation from sin while also thinking that they have no obligation to obey the Torah.

In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. James did not say that the Torah was burdensome.

2) The Torah is inferior to the Gospel because it did not give eternal life!

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, the Torah is our very life. In Leviticus 18:5, those who obey the Torah will attain life by it. In Proverbs 3:16-18, the Torah is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Revelation 22:14, those who kept God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so the experience of getting to be a doer of the Torah is God's gift of eternal life.

Key Bible Verses (Easy Copy-Paste Format)​

These drive home that the Torah/Law was not given to grant eternal life (theosis, divine life). Eternal life comes through the promise to Abraham, fulfilled in Christ (faith, not works of Torah). Fr. De Young often highlights these in Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews contexts.
Galatians 3:21 (core verse Fr. De Young cites directly):

God did give the Torah as a way to earn the promise or our righteousness as the result, but rather the only way to receive them is through faith, however, that does not mean that there is no connection between them. The promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because they did that in obedience to the Torah (Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, Deuteronomy 30:16). The Torah is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed by walking in God's way (Psalm 119:1-3), so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplies and are a blessing to the nations in according with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and by teaching them to obey the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel (Acts 3:25-26). It is contradictory for someone to want to have the blessing of Abraham while not wanting to follow the Torah's instructions for how to receive the blessing of Abraham.

While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Torah will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of the Torah other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which was aware declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Torah (Romans 3:28-31).

Galatians 3:10-14, 16-18 (context on Torah vs. Abrahamic promise):

According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so it would absurd to interpret Galatians 3:10 as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law comes under a curse straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law and that everyone who rely on works of the law instead come under that curse. God did not give the Torah as a curse but as instructions for teaching us how to not be cursed, so Jesus free us from the curse of the Torah is freeing us to enjoy the blessing of getting to be a doer of the Torah.

Romans 3:20 (and surrounding; law reveals sin, doesn’t justify):

If you agree that the Torah gives us knowledge of what sin is and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should be arguing in favor of obeying the Torah.

Romans 7:10 (the commandment was for life, but brought death because of sin):

In Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that the Torah is good and that it was not that which is good that brought death to him.

Hebrews 7:18-19 (law made nothing perfect; better hope in Christ):

The Torah is perfect (Psalm 19:7), so it was not given as a way of becoming prefect, but rather it was given to describe the behavior of those who have been made perfect.

Hebrews 8:7-8, 13 (first covenant faultless? No; becoming obsolete):

Hebrews 87-9 does not say that the fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was with the Torah but with the people for not continuing in their covenant, so the solution to the problem was not to do away with the Torah but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying it, which is why the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our heart (Hebrews 8:10), so the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete does not mean that we should no longer obey the Torah.

John 5:39-40 (Jesus to the Jews: “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.”)

I've quoted many verses that show that eternal life can be found in the Scriptures, so the Pharisees were correct to sear for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scripture is to teach us how to know Christ and to enter into a relationship with him for eternal life.

These show the Torah’s role was not earning eternal life—it managed sin, maintained holiness for God’s presence among Israel, and pointed forward to Christ. Eternal life was always the Abrahamic promise, inherited by faith in Christ.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about what is intrinsically requires to experience the gift of eternal life, not about the way to be good enough to earn it as the result. The Torah was never given as a way of earning eternal life even as the result of having perfect obedience to it, but that does not mean that eternal life does not require us to be a doer of the Torah through faith in Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

This is patently false! All the so called "paganized" Christian holidays did not start until 2 centuries or more after the New Testament era. The Judaizers is the actual historic context of this passage.

Colossians 2:16 by itself leaves room for two possible scenarios:

1.) The Colossians were not celebrating God's feasts, they were being judged by Jews because they were not, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for not celebrating them.

2.) The Colossians were celebrating God's tests, they were being judged by pagans because they were, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for celebrating them.

There is nothing that Paul described about the views of the people who were judging the Colossians that suggests that they were being judged by Judaizers, but rather being judged by those promoting human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body is all consistent with them being judged by pagans. Again, those promoting asceticism and severity to the body would be judging people for celebrating feasts, not for refraining from doing that.

Torahists that want to dismiss the Church Fathers need to take care because they themselves are like the tail of dog that thinks it is going to wag the entire dog. I got to say, I have been shocked talking to my friend over 2 years ago. Talking about his conceptions of the ancient Church, especially the different problems coming from the Pharisees. I pointed out the problems of the Pharisees resisting Christ, even though I acknowledged their were many good ones and that I considered the Pharisees a sympathetic movement a kind of cautionary tale of "There but for the Grace of God go I!". But my friend then shocked me, saying "You know you can have a synagogues with no rabbinic system" (Karaite Judaism) And I was immediately suspicious because there was no mention of this in Josephus and Early Enough historians, meaning this would likely be a new movement, post the Biblical era. And sure enough, I did find that confirmed, The Earliest we can find Karaites is around 720 AD in Nineveh Iraq! But my friend seems to assume them as a pure form of his own kind of Judaism from the get go.

I've studied Justin Martyr's Monologue with Trypho and I pretty unimpressed to put it politely. He clearly did not understand the role of the Jews or of the Torah, such as with him holding the position that God gave the Torah as a punishment to Jews when the Bible says that it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).

In regard to the debate between the school of Hillel and the school of Shammai, the school of Hillel is what won out to become Orthodox Judaism and there is strong agreement between what Jesus taught and the school of Hillel. For reference, Hillel was the grandfather of Gamaliel, who argued in defense of early Christians (Acts 5:34)who was Paul's rabbi (Acts 22:3). In Deuteronomy 17:8-13, it gives authority to priests and judges to make rulings about how to correctly obey the Torah that the community was obligated to obey, and in Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus recognized that the scribes and the Pharisees had this authority by saying that they sit in the Seat of Moses and by instructing his followers to do and observe all that they said. It is possible for someone to practice Judaism while rejecting rabbinic traditions, such as with Karaite or Reform Judaism, but they split off from Orthodox Judaism much later. Some Torah observant Christians interpret the phrase "works of the law" as Paul speaking in opposition to the Oral Torah, so they align with Karaite Jews in rejecting rabbinic traditions, though they are just following a different set of traditions.

As far as the anti-Semitic remarks we should not forget the actual persecution of Christians spurred on by the Jews at this time, as well as the many slanderous and blasphemous sayings about Christ in the Talmud and the oral tradition that preceded it. But back to my friend, it is almost amazing to me the ability to dismiss Apostolic Fathers who themselves were mentored by the very Apostles, just because there teaching does not fit your own Self Confirming Bias. I mean besides the various scriptures that nakedly go against the Torahist agenda, you got other ones too that likewise bolster the authority of such people from scripture as far as establishing and mentoring the next generation of leadership with the laying on of hands, establishing things "in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses", the actual rabbinic term of "Binding and Loosening" used in the Great Commission, and the One Body Ecclesiology of Christianity.

Jews have faced persecution from Christians over the course of the past two thousands years, so it is certainly easy to understand why there was tension between the two groups, but someone making anti-Semitic remarks nevertheless shows that they do not understand the role of the Jews or of the Torah. In Romans 9:3, Paul expressed a willingness to give up his salvation if it meant that his Jewish kinsmen could be saved, so if someone misses the love expressed for Jews in the Bible, then they have a fundamental misunderstanding of it. The expulsion of the Jews from Rome happened around 49-50 AD, so splits were happening fairly early that the ECF were exacerbating.

While it might make sense to you to interpret the Apostles as expressing views that are in disagreement with what the considered to be Scripture and that would make them false prophets according to Deuteronomy 13, it I consider them to be servants of God, so I reject interpreting them as speaking against obeying the Torah.

Besides all this there is also the important concept of Alethia, Truth in the Greek, as in objective truth. There really is a shocking lack of it in the other side. And this has been a point I have really raised to my friend. "Where are these ancient Messianic Synagogues?" Really the New Testament should be written differently if his side was right, or at least there should be some kind of Ebionite / Messianic Equivalent to things on my side. I mean if his side had any truth, you would expect some kind of Apostolic Instruction on Keeping the Festivals and some of "Essential" Mitzot from the Torah. But you don't have any of that! What you got are folks who are anti-Oral Torah who are defacto following The Modus Operandi of Talmudic Judaism even though they disagree with it's formal Theology!! This is really shocking, if you think about it. In ancient Christianity we got a concept called "LEx Orandi, Lex Credendi. The rule of worship, is the rule of Faith/ belief, and it comes from the earliest times of Judaism itself, that the Great Prayers and Hymns of Judaism like the Shema, the Davidic psalms with their prophetic prophesies etc. were not just prayers but also statements of doctrinal belief. But very odd and unusual to have largely unbelievers making your form of worship. I will however note, I am not categorically against Messianic Judaism as far as being some kind of End Time Witness or Ministry to traditional Jews.

There were Christians who continued to follow Christ's example of obedience to the Torah, such as with the Ebionites and the Nazarenes. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb and then concluded that we should therefore continue to celebrate Passover. I agree that Jewish prayers are important and statements of doctrinal belief. Many Jews believe in the Messiah, so I do not consider them to be unbelievers. Even if you do not agree that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to the Torah, there is still much value in Messianic Judaism teaching how to understand the NT in light of its Jewish cultural context.

 

[Soyeong]

That is not at all what I was saying. What i was trying to say is that the 1st of the 7 Noahide laws is to have no other gods before us. Worshipping Jesus to them IS idolatry and one day soon, many will get be-headed for not denying Him.
Jesus said to Love God and love neighbor, the rest of the commandments (the ten) will naturally fall into place.

How can it be idolatry to worship Jesus when the way to worship Jesus is exactly the same as the way to worship the Father? That would mean that everyone who worships the Father is also committing idolatry.