The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

Ok great. I'm going to have to divide this up into a few posts since there is a character limit, and it wont let me post, and nothing is more of a pain when that happens!

I understand the point you are trying to make here. I think it's a bit of a stretch. Yes, I have given you examples- 3 times in the NT- the angle warned John 2x in Rev and Peter warned Cornelius. Of course Jesus never said a thing because He accepted it unlike the angle and unlike Peter. -- Jesus already made it perfectly clear to whom alone worship (proskuneo) and sacred service (latreou) belong to in Matt 4:10 and elsewhere..
Judas was prophesied about- so why would Jesus hinder that? Jesus knows the hearts of all men. He knew who Judas was. John 6:64, John 2:24-24, Matt 9:4, Rev 2:23, Luke 9:47.
Of course He didn't stop all sin everywhere- God doesn't do that. But to insinuate that people were sinning when they gave Jesus worship (proskuneo) is just plain absurd. They also did not just simply "bow" to Him. -
Proskuneó: To worship, to bow down, to prostrate oneself.- from the Lexicon
And, as I'm sure you know they did prostrate themselves before Him in worship. That's the plain definition of the word in the NT.
Considering that Jesus knew and taught full well that proskuneo was ONLY to be given to God--- to insinuate that He allowed people to commit idolatry including His own disciples with zero rebuke is nothing but a vain attempt to deny reality. Of course Jesus receiving worship many times, without even the slightest rebuke is proof of accepting it! I'm flabbergasted that you would even entertain such a twisted way to think. It's a lie. Beware, my friend- Satan will toss all sorts of doubts your way when it comes to faith in Jesus. This is where the rubber meets the road. This is where you need the Lord's help by His spirit in you. I want to encourage you to spend some quiet time focused on this verse-and pray do as He says John 5-39-40
39“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
Go to him, Rman- not as puffed up with knowledge but in humility knowing He is your Savior- sincerely, like a child and He will help you if you ask Him.
In Him, you will find rest for your soul.

The Lord Jesus did not accept proskuneo/worship according to you? WHERE?

Con't..

Noted, but you conceded that God allows things to happen without commenting or intervening, you conceded that Jesus allowed things to happen without commenting or intervening. So it's a stretch to jump to the conclusion that if Jesus didn't stop them when they bowed to him, then it automatically follows that Jesus was accepting what they did.

There is something called implied consent in life. We live here in the world, go about our lives, and things might happen that we have no control over; we know this, we have no choice but to accept this fact of life. Jesus never commanded anyone to bow to him, but did they? Sure they did. Did he ever stop them? No he didn't. A lot of other things happened to Jesus that he didn't command or even necessarily desire, and didn't really have the ability to stop.

Someone bowed to me before. Did I command them to do that? No. Did I accept it? Only in so far as I had no other choice but to accept the reality that it just happened. Now, did I approve of it? No.

I think the better way to ask this is "Did Jesus approve of worshipping him?" We can actually quantify what Jesus approved of based off of his teachings, we cannot necessarily predict what Jesus may have been thinking at any given moment. Jesus taught to worship the Father, that is all my friend.

So I really don't see that Jesus accepted worship in the sense you're suggesting. That's a tough one to sell in my honest opinion.

 

[Runningman]

Anybody thinking Jesus is a created Being has been deceived.

He's the Word of God and nobody created Him because God's Word is God.

The enemy has a little word play, a little semantics going that has some folks deceived.




Of course the carnally minded will focus on the Body the Lord prepared for the Word to be manifest in.

Flesh is as flesh does.





Yeah, the cult people don't know Jesus so they believe all the lies the devil tells them about Jesus

Is the Son of God the same referent as the Son of Man?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Is the Son of God the same referent as the Son of Man?

Ah, the old "lookie over there, a bird" tactic.

Jesus is God's Word. God's Word took upon Himself flesh.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Apparently YOU are one of the folks 2 John 1:7 is speaking of.

Jesus is the last Adam and walked in the office of "Son of Man" so to speak to succeed where Adam failed.

This should not lead to confusion causing people to not understand that Jesus is God's Word and God's Word took upon Himself flesh. But, the tares are easily confused. You should stop caucusing with the tares!

 

[Runningman]

Ah, the old "lookie over there, a bird" tactic.

Jesus is God's Word. God's Word took upon Himself flesh.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Apparently YOU are one of the folks 2 John 1:7 is speaking of.

Jesus is the last Adam and walked in the office of "Son of Man" so to speak to succeed where Adam failed.

This should not lead to confusion causing people to not understand that Jesus is God's Word and God's Word took upon Himself flesh. But, the tares are easily confused. You should stop caucusing with the tares!

Well, I could go after all of your non-Biblical statements, i.e:

"He's the Word of God and nobody created Him because God's Word is God."
"Jesus is God's Word."
"God's Word took upon Himself flesh."
"...Jesus is God's Word and God's Word took upon Himself flesh."

And down the rabbit hole we would go. Though, I find it funny that you preach uninspired phraseology and statements and then turn to suggest others are deceivers. I have often said, those who accuse are often guilty of the things they accuse of.

So that's why I am just trying to get an idea of your perspective. Do you believe the Son of God is the the same person as the Son of Man?

 

[PS95]

Noted, but you conceded that God allows things to happen without commenting or intervening, you conceded that Jesus allowed things to happen without commenting or intervening. So it's a stretch to jump to the conclusion that if Jesus didn't stop them when they bowed to him, then it automatically follows that Jesus was accepting what they did.

There is something called implied consent in life. We live here in the world, go about our lives, and things might happen that we have no control over; we know this, we have no choice but to accept this fact of life. Jesus never commanded anyone to bow to him, but did they? Sure they did. Did he ever stop them? No he didn't. A lot of other things happened to Jesus that he didn't command or even necessarily desire, and didn't really have the ability to stop.

Someone bowed to me before. Did I command them to do that? No. Did I accept it? Only in so far as I had no other choice but to accept the reality that it just happened. Now, did I approve of it? No.

I think the better way to ask this is "Did Jesus approve of worshipping him?" We can actually quantify what Jesus approved of based off of his teachings, we cannot necessarily predict what Jesus may have been thinking at any given moment. Jesus taught to worship the Father, that is all my friend.

So I really don't see that Jesus accepted worship in the sense you're suggesting. That's a tough one to sell in my honest opinion.

So what you are actually tossing at me here is that Jesus ignored and allowed IDOLATRY by various people including his own disciples- and never warned or corrected them even once. LOL
I mean what is there to say to that? You've made Jesus a minister of sin. The chief shepherd of His flock would never do that. Idolaters will enjoy the 2nd death. Even after Jesus was taken up to heaven- they worshiped Him. So your FAKE JESUS caused that idolatry. What a mess you have here.
Please don't toss out your Judas stuff again-that prophecy had to come to fulfillment.

And again- as a side note- I never said they only bowed- they prostrated themselves, as well. You must be on the ground to grab his feet. So we have the outward expressions of worship---Since Jesus reads hearts- He knew what was in their hearts as well. We can safely assume love, devotion, adoration, praise, honor, submission, reverence... IOW- pure worship.
They gave PROSKUNEO to the SON JUST AS THEY DO THE FATHER.
Angels reject it- Godly men reject it.- Jesus did not. He accepted it.

 

[Lambano]

I told you that was what this thread was REALLY all about.

 

[PS95]

Agreed. This part should be fairly straightforward. Servants worship and serve God, but we do not worship servants in the Bible. Even Jesus is one of those servants.

Do you want to worship the God of Abraham or worship His servant?

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

I do worship the God of Abraham! Lol Your problem is simple- you deny that Jesus is the Word who became flesh. That causes you to have to deny that He accepted worship and was called, God.

I'd like to know- Are you a Christadephian or Unitarian or ?
Wrangler I am unsure- he wont say.

 

[Runningman]

So what you are actually tossing at me here is that Jesus ignored and allowed IDOLATRY by various people including his own disciples- and never warned or corrected them even once. LOL
I mean what is there to say to that? You've made Jesus a minister of sin. The chief shepherd of His flock would never do that. Idolaters will enjoy the 2nd death. Even after Jesus was taken up to heaven- they worshiped Him. So your FAKE JESUS caused that idolatry. What a mess you have here.
Please don't toss out your Judas stuff again-that prophecy had to come to fulfillment.

And again- as a side note- I never said they only bowed- they prostrated themselves, as well. You must be on the ground to grab his feet. So we have the outward expressions of worship---Since Jesus reads hearts- He knew what was in their hearts as well. We can safely assume love, devotion, adoration, praise, honor, submission, reverence... IOW- pure worship.
They gave PROSKUNEO to the SON JUST AS THEY DO THE FATHER.
Angels reject it- Godly men reject it.- Jesus did not. He accepted it.

Long story short, there is no indicator that the disciples would have been bowing to Jesus any differently than others who bowed to someone. Others received proskuneo, Jesus received proskuneo, none of them stopped them from doing it. It has nothing to do with worshipping someone as God in every context. You still have a missing link. You have not proved that the disciples or anyone else ever intended to worship Jesus as God, nor shown an instruction to worship Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

I do worship the God of Abraham! Lol Your problem is simple- you deny that Jesus is the Word who became flesh. That causes you to have to deny that He accepted worship and was called, God.

I'd like to know- Are you a Christadephian or Unitarian or ?

I don't agree with that interpretation, but are you saying God is made of flesh? Or are you saying that Jesus was essentially a suit that God put on and used like a puppet?

I am a Unitarian Christian. One God the Father, who is alone the True God, just as Jesus as the apostles taught.

 

[Runningman]

I told you that was what this thread was REALLY all about.

That's fair. May I ask you what the gospel is?

 

[Lambano]

May I ask you what the gospel is?

No.

 

[PS95]

Long story short, there is no indicator that the disciples would have been bowing to Jesus any differently than others who bowed to someone. Others received proskuneo, Jesus received proskuneo, none of them stopped them from doing it. It has nothing to do with worshipping someone as God in every context. You still have a missing link. You have not proved that the disciples or anyone else ever intended to worship Jesus as God, nor shown an instruction to worship Jesus.

Read the New Testament sometime
PROSKUNEO IS RESERVED ONLY FOR GOD--
JESUS SAID IT.-- "it is written" !!!
JESUS RECEIVED & ACCEPTED PROSKUNEO MANY TIMES OVER.
ANGELS REJECTED IT.
APOSTLE REJECTED IT.
Denying that wont change the facts.

I'm done, RMan. Circular reasoning and cognitive dissonance is all I see in your posts. I've had a lifetime of that.

 

[BreadOfLife]

My post is very clear. It seems that you misunderstood it as you're arguing against something I never said. What I clearly stated was: "You’re promoting the heresy of Modalism/Oneness theology."

You replied: "The doctrine of the Trinity is not heresy. It is not "Modalism" or "Oneness" theology. The problem here is YOU and your misunderstanding - and misuse of these terms."

I never said the doctrine of the Trinity was heresy; I'm Trinitarian, so why would I say it was heresy? I clearly stated that Modalism/Oneness theology was heresy. Perhaps rather than just jumping in like that and making false accusations, you should go back and read more of the discussion so you know who is saying what.

@JimKnox has been strongly implying that when Isa. 9:6 states the son is the "Everlasting Father," that Jesus is the Father. That is something he refuses to clarify or deny. That is Modalism/Oneness.

You’re right.

Afte reading both arguments again (and others), I see now that was Jimknox who made the false claim. My apologies.

He insists that Isa. 9:6-7 “clearly teaches that Jesus is the Everlasting Father.” It doesn’t. This is based on a total misunderstanding of the 3 ROLES of the ONE Being.

Jesus is ONE with the Father and the Holy Spirit in BEING – but He is NOT the Person of the Father.

 

[BreadOfLife]

“Hypostasis” is silly, obtuse, Greek philosophical terminology. You mean in English substance, essence, or being.

Hypostasis simply refers to the fact that Jesus unites to Himself TWO natures: Human and Divine.
Difficult for some to understand, maybe – but not “obtuse”.

At one point at least, the will of Jesus existed as distinct from His Father’s will, but Jesus suppressed His will and preferred His Father’s will to be done.

Luke 22:42
saying, “Father, if Thou be willing, remove this cup from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Thine be done.”

The Holy Spirit proceeds (Greek: ekporeuetai) from the Father only.

In addition to accurately reflecting the words of Scripture, “proceeds” (for the Spirit) and “begotten” (for the Son) describe the distinct ways each person of the Trinity relates to the Father. Since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all fully God, these relationships distinguish them as unique persons.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth who proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me.

Other passages fill in that picture:

• John 16:7 — Jesus says of the Spirit, “I will send him to you.”
• John 20:22 — Jesus breathes on the disciples after His resurrection and says, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”
• Galatians 4:6 — “God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts.”

So while John 15:26 emphasizes that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, the broader New Testament shows that the Spirit is also intimately related to the Son—to the point where He is even called “the Spirit of the Son.”

In fact, in John 14, when telling His disciples at the Last Supper that He would not abandon them through this departure from this world, Jesus said that He would come to them, in the context of sending the Holy Spirit to them (see John 14:18).

Furthermore, the New Testament authors tell us that the Holy Spirit indwells those who believe in Jesus, and then Paul tells us in Colossians that Christ dwells in us who believe (cf. Ephesians 1:13-14; Colossians 1:27)

You’ve made a great argument for the fact that the Holy Spirit proceeds from BOTH the Father (John 15:26) - AND the Son ,who breathed Him out - PRIOR to His Ascension to Heaven (John 20:22) and "departure from this world" . . .

 

[Wrangler]

It's sad and really slow that you don't know God's Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Again, reading into this. Nothing says Jesus is the word of God here.