What does it mean to be "born again"?

[Armour of God]

What you did was provide quotes and sources showing the CATHOLIC Church believed baptismal regeneration, but what you did NOT do is show proof that the one true church of the living God EVER taught or believed in baptismal regeneration.
And as I TOLD you, it is NEVER taught in Acts which is the history of THAT church. Additionally, I showed you where Peter denies your doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
Speaking of moving goal posts: that is also on you since you constantly "forget" we are talking about baptismal regeneration by dishonestly saying we are talking about "baptism". I never denied baptism. But I vehemently reject baptismal regeneration which YOU promote.

You asked me to prove that the early church believed in baptism. I did that by supplying 1 catholic source and 7 non catholic sources.

I asked you to prove that the early church didn't believe in baptism. You supplied no sources at all.

Fact - The early church believed in baptism
You have failed to prove otherwise

 

[PeterAndroz]

I was asked to give proof that the early church, from the 2nd to 5th Centuries AD, believed in baptism. I did that well and truly by supplying 8 sources.

Some of those 'sources' also believe in purgatory yet where does Paul (Romans to Philemon) teach that ?
Point ?
Church 'beliefs' do not replace or over-ride Scripture.

 

[NayborBear]

Okay; let's flesh that out a bit. (Pun intentional.)

If I were to argue that, I'd start with verse 5:

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Being "born of water" is an obvious reference to Baptism, and there is a lot of baptizing going on here (though I disagree with the statement "the rest of the chapter is about baptism").

Question 1: What does being "born of the Spirit" mean?

Welp? I may not be able to convince or persuade anyone else?
When one is "born again of the Spirit?"
The one who has been "born again, or born from above, or born again of the Spirit?"
KNOWS IT!......FOR A FACT!!.......THAT "THIS" HAS OCCURRED!
Because what USUALLY follows is like a (how can I say) a "season(?)" or series, which seem like "waves" of "BEING CONVICTED" by this SELFSAME SPIRIT with which "the one," or one, who HAS been "born from above" is subjected to!
Of the WHICH? Tis TRULY a very humbling experience! And? I SHOULD add, although, it really SHOULD go without saying.
An "EXPERIENCE" one does not soon, nor SHOULD EVER forget!

I could go on......But needs get ready for to go to Church today.

(finally got my internet working correctly...........again. After going through time after time with "professor google?" I went and did the LAST thing this old decrepit body WANTED to do! Which was get on the floor and behind my desk and blow the dust off every wire/cable from the wall plug to my modem/router, from the router to my computer!.........And?......YES! I DID look for other items that i had dropped whilst being "in the neighborhood!" )

SEEMS to have "done the trick!"
So far, anyways!

 

[NayborBear]

What you did was provide quotes and sources showing the CATHOLIC Church believed baptismal regeneration, but what you did NOT do is show proof that the one true church of the living God EVER taught or believed in baptismal regeneration.
And as I TOLD you, it is NEVER taught in Acts which is the history of THAT church. Additionally, I showed you where Peter denies your doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
Speaking of moving goal posts: that is also on you since you constantly "forget" we are talking about baptismal regeneration by dishonestly saying we are talking about "baptism". I never denied baptism. But I vehemently reject baptismal regeneration which YOU promote.

(Reading and answering these posts is gonna make me run late!)
Welp?
Your wrong Jim! The very LEAST thing that being baptized does?
Is "plant the SEED of FAITH!" Which is as Jesus of Nazareth correctly stated: "Is like a mustard seed."
And? Being "Immersed in water?"
Is more times than not? Done and/or PROFESSED in FRONT of WITNESSES!

 

[mailmandan]

Is it possible He was referring to the "living water" He spoke of to the woman at the well?

*Water baptism is certainly not the only "water" mentioned in scripture.

John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

John 4:10 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

*Jesus connects living water with fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - drink into one Spirit.

In the Old Testament, we see that God Himself is called the "fountain of living water." Jeremiah 2:13 - For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living water, and hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water.

Jeremiah 17:3 - O Lord, the hope of Israel, all who forsake You shall be ashamed. "Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, The fountain of living waters."

Isaiah 12:2 - Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For the Lord God is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation.’ 3 Therefore with joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.

 

[Armour of God]

*Water baptism is certainly not the only "water" mentioned in scripture.

John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

John 4:10 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

*Jesus connects living water with fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - drink into one Spirit.

In the Old Testament, we see that God Himself is called the "fountain of living water." Jeremiah 2:13 - For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living water, and hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water.

Jeremiah 17:3 - O Lord, the hope of Israel, all who forsake You shall be ashamed. "Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, The fountain of living waters."

Isaiah 12:2 - Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For the Lord God is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation.’ 3 Therefore with joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.

I gotta say, for the modern interpretation of born again, at least that's a much better explanation than the one people usually use which is amniotic fluid.

Still, it's connection to being born of water and spirit is not as strong as the water and spirit of baptism is, its very implicit.

The fact that the rest of John 3 is focused on baptism cannot be dismissed in my opinion. Its a clear indication that it is connected to being born again as it immediately follows the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus.

Baptism was already being practised by the Jews which is why Jesus said
"10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?" John 3:10
So the fact that Nicodemus should of already known these things is a sign that Christ wasn't teaching anything new but something old and already being practiced like baptism

Here are some verses that connect being born of water and spirit to baptism

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Acts 1:5
5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Romans 6:3-4
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 19:5-6
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 1:10
10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove

These verses are explicit in the connection of water and spirit with baptism.

I understand there are different interpretations on this matter and I accept that. I certainly don't slander those with differing opinions like many others do.

But in my opinion, it's much more likely that being born again involves baptism, it's arguments are stronger, it's what the early church believed and its what most Christians today believe.

God bless

 

[Lambano]

When one is "born again of the Spirit?"
The one who has been "born again, or born from above, or born again of the Spirit?"
KNOWS IT!......FOR A FACT!!.......THAT "THIS" HAS OCCURRED!

I've heard testimonies both ways.

The classic one, of course, is getting knocked off your horse, blinded by a bright light, and hearing a voice coming from the sky saying, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the pricks." (Acts 26:14.) The Baptists in the church I attended as a teenager taught that everyone should be able to point to a time and a place where they had an experience like that. On the other hand, a couple of the most godly people I know (whose lives demonstrate they've been "born again") both said they had no "magic moment". Both testify that it was like they "just always knew".

“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8.)

 

[Behold]

You asked me to prove that the early church believed in baptism.

Its interesting that Catholics (Mary Cult) never understand that the 11 remaining OG Apostles, and Paul the Apostle, were not "Catholic".

So, the simple understanding of being Born again.......is to be birthed by the Holy Spirit as "In Christ", and "One with God".

Being BORN.........again...........is to be BORN a 2nd Time.........Spiritually.

Water is not required.

 

[Hillsage]

Its interesting that Catholics (Mary Cult) never understand that the 11 remaining OG Apostles, and Paul the Apostle, were not "Catholic".

So, the simple understanding of being Born again.......is to be birthed by the Holy Spirit as "In Christ", and "One with God".

Being BORN.........again...........is to be BORN a 2nd Time.........Spiritually.

Water is not required.

I agree with all you said. But wish to say something I never hear anyone say, concerning the first one called to be an apostle;

HEB 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

 

[Behold]

I

HEB 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

That excellent TOPIC would make a very good Thread topic here on the forum.
Why don't you write it @Hillsage ?
Would be very interesting.

 

[Hillsage]

That excellent TOPIC would make a very good Thread topic here on the forum.
Why don't you write it @Hillsage ?
Would be very interesting.

Thank you, for your kind request. In 30+ years of multiple Christian forums, I have never started a thread. And in meditating upon your post since it appeared, I do not feel led to start now. I am still trying to decide if I am being told to "not start that which I 'will not' or 'can not' finish." Whichever it is, I am OK with. But if you feel led, go for it. But I would appreciate a 'tag', if you do.

 

[Armour of God]

Its interesting that Catholics (Mary Cult) never understand that the 11 remaining OG Apostles, and Paul the Apostle, were not "Catholic"

I'm sorry but your misrepresenting what I said.

I'm not Catholic nor did I ever say the apostles were Catholic.

What i did say is that the early church believed in baptism.

So, the simple understanding of being Born again.......is to be birthed by the Holy Spirit as "In Christ", and "One with God".

Being BORN.........again...........is to be BORN a 2nd Time.........Spiritually.

Water is not required.

Thanks for sharing your opinion

 

[Lambano]

So, the simple understanding of being Born again.......is to be birthed by the Holy Spirit as "In Christ", and "One with God".

Being BORN.........again...........is to be BORN a 2nd Time.........Spiritually.

Can you flesh that out a bit? (Oops; bad choice of words.) What does it mean to be "born spiritually"?

 

[Behold]

Thank you, for your kind request. In 30+ years of multiple Christian forums, I have never started a thread. And in meditating upon your post since it appeared, I do not feel led to start now. I am still trying to decide if I am being told to "not start that which I 'will not' or 'can not' finish." Whichever it is, I am OK with. But if you feel led, go for it. But I would appreciate a 'tag', if you do.

Well, i'd like to read your Thread, should you decide to post.




Psalm 29:11

 

[Behold]

Can you flesh that out a bit? (Oops; bad choice of words.) What does it mean to be "born spiritually"?

To go to Heaven happens 2x for the Believer.

The first time, is to be "born .... again"........as this places the born again believer "In Christ".... "seated in Heavenly Places."

The 2nd Time is when you meet Jesus in the RAPTURE, and get your new body, and then you enter Heaven.... soon to return at the 2nd Advent with The Lord to rule and reign with Him for 1000 yrs in Jerusalem.

Now, why did Jesus say ... = "i have come to give you LIFE" ???

Are you not alive right now?
Dont you have life?
Isn't your heartbeat and your breathing proof of LIFE?
And everyone who died and went to Hell today.......they all had life, also.

So, that is not the Life that Jesus is talking about giving to us.
He's talking about "The Gift of ETERNAL LIFE"".........and what that is........is not a time period that never ends.

Eternal LIFE is that "LIFE" that Jesus came to give us.......that is simply and wonderfully = being restored to God, exactly as Adam was ONE with God = Spiritually....... before He sinned and lost that "ONE-NESS with God". (Spiritual Separation from God).

So, To be "In Christ", means we are joined to God......spiritually.

To be "One with God" means we are born again "IN Christ"... connected to Him, Spiritually, forever.

Being "In Christ" and "One with God" is the same thing because Jesus is God, and God is in Christ.

Remeber that God said........"In Whom i am well pleased"?..........He's talking about being One with THe Son who is "in the bosom of Father".

So, being born again means that we have received that Eternal "LIFE" that Jesus said He came to Give us..

So, the simple answer is.....Jesus the 2nd Adam, came here as God in the Flesh, and was crucified so that we can be forgiven our sin forever, which allows God the Holy Spirit to cause our spirit to become joined to His = Eternal LIFE...., exactly as Adam #1 had this, before He lost it.

Jesus is "the Way"... to get that Eternal Life back.......... John 14:6........"I am the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE"...

 

[NayborBear]

Well, i'd like to read your Thread, should you decide to post.




Psalm 29:11

Having been rather "urged" to continue reading Paul's testifyings from Heb. 3:1 all the way into the first part of chapter 8?
I must admit/confess (whatever....lol) that I have not heard nor seen all so many references by very many, IF any "preachers/teachers/ posters in forums (lol) etc. etc" make much mention regarding Melchizedk, let alone "The Order" of Melchizedek! which is kinda sad, actually.
Rather sounds like (according to Paul) that the "Mosiac Law/s" passed unto Abraham, Moses and so on, was Originally Intended to be "lacking" of that which gives Eternal Life, OR Salvation.
Which IS, SURELY NOT the case!
What it DOES reveal however, is just how sneaky and subtle the adversary IS!.....AND Yea, even STILL is!
So, it wasn't what the Mosaic Law WAS?
It's WHAT the Mosaic Law BECAME that the NEED FOR "the Branch" which IS Jesus Christ of Nazareth, to be "sent" unto MAN!

But? Yeah! A thread addressing this "order of Melchizedk" and/or what Paul was trying to communicate in only 1 of his more than several dissertations WOULD BE, or should be of great albeit, pretty short thread. Sad to say!

 

[Lambano]

So, To be "In Christ", means we are joined to God......spiritually.

Can you elaborate on this, please? What does it mean to be "spiritually" joined to God? Assume I have no idea what "spiritual" means.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What you did was provide quotes and sources showing the CATHOLIC Church believed baptismal regeneration, but what you did NOT do is show proof that the one true church of the living God EVER taught or believed in baptismal regeneration.
And as I TOLD you, it is NEVER taught in Acts which is the history of THAT church. Additionally, I showed you where Peter denies your doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
Speaking of moving goal posts: that is also on you since you constantly "forget" we are talking about baptismal regeneration by dishonestly saying we are talking about "baptism". I never denied baptism. But I vehemently reject baptismal regeneration which YOU promote.

I don’t know where to begin showing you the errors of your revisionist Biblical AND historical views. At best – they are tragically wrong . . .

ALL of the following verses of Scripture teach the regenerating power of Baptism with water (Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 19:1-7, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:37-38, Gal. 3:27, Col. 2:11-12, Tit. 3:4-8, 1 Pet. 3:21)

The Early Church overwhelmingly taught this truth:
The Epistle of Barnabas (yes, the same Barnabas from Acts)
“… we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the REMISSION OF SINS and would set up a substitution of their own instead “[Jer. 22:13; Is. 16:1-2, 33:16-18; Ps. 1:3-6].
“Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.’ Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls” (11:1-10 [circa A.D. 70]).

Hermas
”… we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is'” (The Shepherd 4:3:1-2 [A.D. 140]).
“They had need [the Shepherd said] to come up through the water, so that they might be made ALIVE, for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. “
“They go down into the water dead [in sin], and come out of it alive” (Ibid. 9:16:2-4).

Theophilus
“Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of REGENERATION–all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God” (To Autolycus 12:16 [A.D. 181]).

Justin Martyr
“Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.’… The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles” (The First Apology 61:14-17 [inter A.D. 148-155]).

Clement of Alexandria
“When we are baptized we are enlightened.
It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation–t…”
(The Instructor of Children, 1:6:26:1 [ante A.D. 202]).

Origen
“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism EVEN TO INFANTS. For the apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which are washed away through water and the Spirit”
(Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [Post A.D. 244]).

Cyprian
“But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of REBIRTH, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards, through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man” (To Donatus 4 [circa A.D. 246]).

Aphraates
“From baptism we receive the spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and he descends and rests upon the waters, and those who are baptized are clothed in him. The Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of REBIRTH, and then they receive the Holy Spirit….n the second birth, that through baptism, they receive the Holy Spirit” (Treatises 6:14:4 [inter A.D. 336-345]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive baptism, for the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism (cf. Mark 10:38)….Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and you come up made alive in righteousness” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12 [circa A.D. 350]).

Basil
“For prisoners, baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, REGENERATION of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption” (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5 [ante A.D. 379]).

Ambrose
“The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins” (Commentary on the Gospel of Luke 2:83 [circa A.D. 389]).

Jerome
“This much you must know, that baptism forgives past sins, but it does not safeguard future justice, which is preserved by labor and industry and diligence and depends always and above all on the mercy of God” (Dialogue Against the Pelagians 3:1 [A.D. 415]).

Augustine
“The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of REGENERATION”
(Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).