God Commands Righteous Violence

[Wrangler]

Don't you think shooting someone in the kneecap is violent? I do.

You obviously have no knowledge of fire arm use and believe the movies pinpoint shooting scenes. Anyone trained in self defense with fire arms knows you don't aim for the knee caps but the center of exposed body mass, which is the chest.

If there is no need to stop him by killing him- why not do that?

Your starting point is again wrong due to shifting the risk from the evil doer. Your "if" is an invalid premise. It's not "If there is no need to stop him by killing him- why not do that" but "the evil perpetrator takes the risk they may be killed due to their choice to do evil."

The NRA has statistics that show 90% of crime is stopped by the mere brandishing of firearms. The only reason this positive result exists is because the criminal has good reason to believe that if they don't cease and desist with immediate effect, they will be terminated with extreme prejudice. If they believed the worst that will happen is they'll get knee capped, the preventive effect wouldn't be close to 90%!

Let me say the obvious; no one wants to kill. However, the only reason good exists in this world is good men are willing to do bad things to bad men.

 

[Matthias]

… the only reason good exists in this world is good men are willing to do bad things to bad men.

That’s a non-Christian position; even a godless position.

Jesus and the apostles didn’t teach the followers of Jesus to do bad things to bad men.

You are teaching good men to do bad things to bad men.

Jesus and the apostles taught the followers of Jesus - bad men made good - to treat bad men good - in hope that the bad men might be made good.

Teaching good men to do bad things.

Please think about that.

Teaching good men to do bad things doesn’t come from above; it comes from below.

Teaching good men to do bad things comes from the devil; not from God and Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

Vlad… Thoughts?

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:1-4).

Making Vlad out to be a Christian role model harms efforts to evangelize Muslims (and non-Muslims). Any person who does that is fighting against God.

 

[Matthias]

Vlad … Thoughts?

Have you read Aleksander Solzhenitsyn’s three volume work, The Gulag Archipelago? If not, I’d like to recommend it to you.

”If the intellectuals in the plays of Chekov who spent all their time guessing what would happen in twenty, thirty, or forty years had been told that in forty years interrogation by torture would be practiced in Russia; that prisoners would have their skulls squeezed within iron rings; that a human being would be lowered into an acid bath; that they would be trussed up naked to be bitten by ants and bedbugs; that a ramrod heated over a primus stove would be thrust up their anal canal (‘the secret brand’); that a man’s genitals would be slowly crushed beneath the toe of a jackboot; and that, in the luckiest possible circumstances, prisoners would be tortured by being kept from sleeping for a week, by thirst, and by being beaten to a bloody pulp, not one of Chekhov’s plays would have gotten to its end because all the heroes would have gone off to insane asylums.

Yes, not only Chekhov’s heroes, but what normal Russian at the beginning of the century, including any member of the Russian Social Democratic Workers’ Party, could have believed, would have tolerated, such a slander against the bright future? What had been acceptable under Tsar Aleksei Mikhailovich in the seventeenth century, what had already been regarded as barbarism under Peter the Great, what might have been used against ten or twenty people in all during the time of Biron in the mid-eighteenth century, what had already become totally impossible under Catherine the Great, was all being practiced during the flowering of the glorious twentieth century - in a society based on socialist principles, and at a time when airplanes were flying and the radio and talking films had already appeared - not by one scoundrel alone in one secret place only, but by tens of thousands of specially trained human beasts standing over millions of defenseless victims.”

(Volume 1, Part 1, Chapter 3, “The Interrogation,” pp. 93-94)

What you support as Christian isn’t Christian at all. It is an affront to God and to the dignity of man.

 

[Wrangler]

That’s a non-Christian position; even a godless position.

Nope. You have a perverted sense of Christianity, a pacifist imitation. My statement is hardly more Christian for can there be any good in this world without God doing good things? Christ pointed out that we are all gods. Using violence is God’s ultimate solution to evil. You keep pretending this is not so.

 

[Matthias]

You have a perverted sense of Christianity, a pacifist imitation.

I’ve posted scripture, appealed to Church history, quoted one of your favorite Christian writers, and provided a massive amount of other Christian commentary to support my position and oppose yours.

Jesus and the apostles neither taught the disciples to torture their enemies nor did they model torturing enemies. Jesus and the apostles didn’t teach the disciples to be willing to do bad things to their enemy.

My statement is hardly more Christian for can there be any good in this world without God doing good things?

Your comment made no mention of God. You spoke only of good and bad men.

Christ pointed out that we are all gods.

What does that mean? What kind of god do you think you are?

Using violence is God’s ultimate solution to evil. You keep pretending this is not so.

I have in fact acknowledged that it is so.

 

[Matthias]

Did Jesus and the apostles teach the disciples that they must be willing to do bad things to bad men?

AI Overview -

“No, Jesus and the apostles did not teach that disciples should do bad things to bad men; instead, they commanded followers to love enemies, avoid revenge, and never do evil to achieve good. …

• Rejecting bad means for good ends: Paul explicitly rejected the slanderous accusations that Christians taught doing evil so that good might come, stating that those who advocate doing evil face a just condemnation (Romans 3:8).”

Doing evil, @Wrangler, is doing bad.

You are doing evil with your teaching.

A question for readers who attend church services: Has your pastor ever instructed you from the pulpit to go and do bad things? If so, please tell us about it.

 

[Matthias]

Vlad … Thoughts?

The spirit of Vlad is incompatible with the spirit of Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

Nope.

Evil says “nope” to followers of Jesus and followers of Jesus say “nope” to evil.

Everyone must be persuaded in their own minds.

Those who think Jesus and the apostles taught the disciples that they must be willing to do bad things to their enemies (torturing them, for example) should repent. If they refuse to repent, then they should follow you.

 

[Matthias]

“In the first centuries, Christianity flourished in North Africa. … The Christians of North Africa neglected just one duty: to win the Muslims for Christ. The result was that the Muslims invaded North Africa and uprooted Christianity for centuries. North Africa belongs to Muslims even now, and they are called by Christian missions ‘the bloc of unconvertibles.’ Let us learn something from history!”

(Richard Wurmbrand, Tortured for Christ, pp. 70, 71)

Win the Muslims for Messiah. That is the duty of the followers of Jesus. That is the Great Commission.

It’s done by preaching the gospel to Muslims; not done by ”good men willing to do bad things” to Muslims.

Acts 8:12 is the way. Vlad stands in the way of winning the Muslims for Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

Proposition: Christianity teaches that followers of Jesus must be willing to do bad things to bad men.

AI Overview -

“That is incorrect; Christianity actually teaches the opposite. …”

@Wrangler you are teaching the opposite of what Christianity teaches, and that is evil. Unless you repent, you will experience God’s ultimate solution to evil.

 

[Lambano]

Don't you think shooting someone in the kneecap is violent? I do. If there is no need to stop him by killing him- why not do that?

In short: Any use of a firearm against another human being is legally considered "deadly force", whether you're aiming for the kneecap, the head, or the cojones. If "there is no need to stop him by killing him", then you are not in "imminent danger of death, grievous bodily harm, or rape" (the legal standard justifying the use of deadly force), so you can't legally kneecap 'em. And if you ARE in "imminent danger of death, grievous bodily harm, or rape", aiming at the kneecap is a sub-optimal and risky tactic because it has a lower probability of quickly stopping the offending behavior. Aiming for the chest or the head is tactically better; the probabilities are higher there. The center mass is the bigger target and thus easier to hit under stress.

Yes, I've had training.

Yes, Jesus will hold me accountable for my actions in this life.

Yes, I know how This World works.

I also hear Jesus's call to live a different way. I don't know if everybody else does. That call seems to get drowned out in the noise and confusion and gets harder and harder to hear these days.

 

[Matthias]

Proposition: Christianity teaches that followers of Jesus must be willing to do bad things to bad men.

AI Overview -

“That is incorrect; Christianity actually teaches the opposite. …”

“Jesus lied” leads to “followers of Jesus must be willing to do bad things to bad men.”

Cause and effect.

 

[Matthias]

Let me say the obvious; no one wants to kill.

“Lt. Col. Dave Grossman was an Army Ranger, paratrooper, West Point professor, and is a military historian. Grossman’s book, ‘On Killing,’ was nominated nonfiction Pulitzer Prize. In that book, Grossman analyzes anecdotal material and official studies about soldiers’ behavior in battle and concludes that until late in the 20th century when training methods were changed, only about one in five men in combat would actively try to kill the enemy. What would the 80% nonkillers do? Few of them were cowards who turned tail and ran. Instead, the nonkillers would fire their weapons harmlessly in the air or refuse to shoot at all.”

Random Facts About … Our Reluctance to Kill One Another - Eastern Shore Post

By David Martin — Looking at all the horrible news coming out of our internet tubes lately, you’d think we humans have an inborn propensity for killing one another. A study of men in combat reaches the opposite conclusion: On their own, most men are reluctant or refuse to kill their fellow man...

easternshorepost.com

I’ve read the book. Have you? If you haven’t, this is another book recommendation for you.

P.S.

It was recommended to me by my brother-in-law, a West Point graduate.

 

[Matthias]

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:1-4).

Making Vlad out to be a Christian role model harms efforts to evangelize Muslims (and non-Muslims). Any person who does that is fighting against God.

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed this morning -

“Satan seeks to destroy God’s plan for humans as revealed in Gen 1-2. Every point is under attack in our day.”

(David K. Bernard)

David K. Bernard (@davidkbernard) on X

Satan seeks to destroy God’s plan for humans as revealed in Gen 1–2. Every point is under attack in our day.

x.com

Vlad as Christian role model isn’t the answer. Vlad as Christian role model is part of the problem.

 

[ShineTheLight]

Did Jesus and the apostles teach the disciples that they must be willing to do bad things to bad men?

AI Overview -

“No, Jesus and the apostles did not teach that disciples should do bad things to bad men; instead, they commanded followers to love enemies, avoid revenge, and never do evil to achieve good. …

• Rejecting bad means for good ends: Paul explicitly rejected the slanderous accusations that Christians taught doing evil so that good might come, stating that those who advocate doing evil face a just condemnation (Romans 3:8).”

Doing evil, @Wrangler, is doing bad.

You are doing evil with your teaching.

A question for readers who attend church services: Has your pastor ever instructed you from the pulpit to go and do bad things? If so, please tell us about it.

I have these to share.

Proverbs 14:7
He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated.

Psalm 37:8
Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

Proverbs 15:18
A wrathful man stirreth up strife: but he that is slow to anger appeaseth strife.

Ephesians 4:31
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Colossians 3:8
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Luke 9:51-55
51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

 

[Matthias]

I have these to share.

Proverbs 14:7
He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated.

Psalm 37:8
Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

Proverbs 15:18
A wrathful man stirreth up strife: but he that is slow to anger appeaseth strife.

Ephesians 4:31
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Colossians 3:8
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Luke 9:51-55
51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Thanks. That’s a good contribution to the conversation.

James and John responded positively to the rebuke.

We’re to be guided by the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles, not by the teaching and example of our enemies.

 

[Matthias]

Vlad ... Thoughts?

“I am Vlad!” I see that you want to be and want others to be.

I’m not Vlad and want no one to be.

***

Christians: Be Jesus and the apostles to your enemies. That is why we are sent to them.

 

[ScottA]

This vid is provocative from the perspective of today's overly spiritualized. One interesting observation is the Christian hero Prince Vlad, whose Dracula means order of the Knights of the dragon. He saved European Christian women and children from Islamic invaders by attacking Islamic warriors. In his home country, he is taught in schools as a hero and defender of the faith from Mehmet who conquered Constantinople after 1,000 years of being a Christian capital. Thoughts?

I concur.

This is war. Lay down your weapons when it is over, not before. Which is not living by the sword, it's not dying by the sword.

 

[Matthias]

… the only reason good exists in this world is good men are willing to do bad things to bad men.

This line of thinking has led you to approve of Christians killing fellow Christians.