MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[Marty fox]

......receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Yet the verse states OR not AND
Based on that verse, if a Christian receives the mark in his hand OR in his forehead yet does NOT worship the beast/image then he has not met all 3 conditions required to be sent to the LOF

Anyone who rejects Jesus is required to be sent to the lake of fire.

Thus thats what the mark is, a symbolic sign of the rejection of the Holy Spirit (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) that reveals Jesus to us and what Jesus said the only unrepentant-able sin is

 

[PeterAndroz]

Maybe we can find some common ground here we both can agree on? The following makes it crystal clear repentance is still possible at this point, except John sees that they never repent. And if they never repent, how does that not equal they are cast into the LOF in the end? We have to keep in mind that John sees everything, how it begins and how it ends. And it would be a false prophecy if any of it ends any differently than what John had observed via all the visions throughout.

Revelation 16:8 ¶And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Simply reading the verses.
Rev 14:9-11 worship the beast AND take the mark = LOF
If beast/image worship stops would LOF be off the table ?
Rev 16:2 beast worship or take mark = receive a grievous sore yet no mention of LOF
Rev 16:8-9 no mention of LOF
I only see LOF when worship AND take mark.
Please list the verses that show otherwise.

 

[Davidpt]

Anyone who rejects Jesus is required to be sent to the lake of fire.

Thus thats what the mark is, a symbolic sign of the rejection of the Holy Spirit (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) that reveals Jesus to us and what Jesus said the only unrepentant-able sin is

As to this mark in question. According to the text per Revelation 13, there is not a mark to take or not take until a first beast rises out of the sea, and it's deadly wound has been healed. And that a 2nd beast then rises out of the earth then fulfills everything written about it in Revelation 13:14-15. In the meantime, until verses 14-15 are fulfilled first, whatever that might look like when it is fulfilled, there is no MOTB yet. How could there be when there can't be until verses 14-15 are fulfilled first? We have be logical here, at the least. Nothing logical about what you are proposing if any of what you are proposing assumes an era of time before verses 14-15 are even fulfilled first. And that you can't even arrive at verses 14-15 without arriving at Revelation 13:1 first, then what all that involves, to begin with.

And when John saw the visions, he indicated that the beast ascends from the pit sometime in the future.

And the fact that Revelation 13:1 and the beast ascending out of the pit is obviously describing the same event. Therefore, the mark can't simply be what you take it to mean. There certainly wasn't this MOTB during John's day when he initially saw these visions if Revelation 13:1 is meaning post his day and that you can't arrive at Revelation 13:14-15 without arriving at Revelation 13:1 first, that being when the beast initially ascends out of the pit.

 

[Anchorite]

Revelation 14:11

NIV

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Berean Standard Bible

And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Christian Standard Bible
and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast or its statue, or for anyone branded with its name.

International Standard Version
The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

NET Bible
And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Literal Standard Version
and the smoke of their torment goes up through ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are worshiping the beast and his image, also if any receive the mark of his name.

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name.”

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Smith's Literal Translation
And the smoke of their torture goes up forever and ever: and they have no rest day and night, those worshipping the wild beast and his image, and if any receive the stamp of his name.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And the smoke of their torments shall ascend forever and ever. And they shall have no rest, day or night, those who have worshiped the beast or his image, or who have received the character of his name.”

New American Bible
The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever, and there will be no relief day or night for those who worship the beast or its image or accept the mark of its name.”

New Revised Standard Version
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And the smoke of their torment ascends for the eternity of eternities, and there is no rest, day or night, for those who worship The Beast and its Image and for him who takes the mark of its name.

Anderson New Testament
and the smoke of their torment ascends from age to age: and they who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name, have no rest day or night.

Godbey New Testament
And the smoke of their torment, ascends up into ages of ages: and they have no rest day and night, who worship the beast and his image, and if any one receives the mark of his name.

Haweis New Testament
and the smoke of their torment ascendeth for ever and ever: and they have no respite day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the brand of his name.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I understand the point you're making about the word 'and', but I think your argument is separating two things that John never separates.

The issue isn't whether the word 'and' joins two conditions. Of course it does. The issue is whether Revelation ever presents the mark of the beast as something that can be received apart from allegiance to the beast.

Look at the flow of Revelation 13.

First, people worship the dragon and the beast (Rev. 13:4).

Then the false prophet causes the earth to worship the first beast (Rev. 13:12).

Then we're told that those who refuse to worship the image of the beast are to be killed (Rev. 13:15).

Immediately after that, John says the beast causes people to receive the mark (Rev. 13:16).

The mark isn't introduced as some neutral identifier that someone can receive while remaining faithful to Christ. It is introduced in the very context of worship and submission to the beast's authority.

So when Revelation 14:9 says---If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark...

I don't think John is describing two unrelated actions that can be separated. He's describing the same allegiance to the beast. Worship and the mark belong together throughout the narrative.

Revelation 20:4 confirms this. Notice how John describes the faithful---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark...

Again, John doesn't separate the two. He presents the saints as those who refused both the worship and the mark.

You also mentioned Revelation 16:2 doesn't explicitly say those with the mark go to the lof. I agree it doesn't use those exact words. What it does show is that those with the mark are under God's wrath. Then Revelation 14:9-11 explains that wrath, and Revelation 19 and 20 shows the final outcome of those aligned with the beast.

So my question is this.

Where does Revelation ever describe someone who receives the mark but remains faithful to Christ by refusing allegiance to the beast?

I don't see John giving us that category anywhere in the book.

In fact, it seems to me that your argument creates a category that John himself never describes---a person who has the mark but has not actually aligned himself with the beast.

If such a category exists, I'd be interested in seeing where Revelation explicitly presents it. From what I can see, every time John discusses the mark, it is tied to the beast's worship, while the overcomers are consistently identified as those who refused both.

Long explanations/opinions often lead to confusion.
LOF if take mark AND worship - no disagreement there.
Take the mark yet not worship beast = Christian loses Eph 1:13 seal ?
Now that becomes a problem for those who believe tribulation (MOTB) age saints are covered by Eph 1:13.
My belief is Eph 1:13, Eph 2:8-9 etc ceases before MOTB starts.

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 14:11

NIV

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Berean Standard Bible

And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Christian Standard Bible
and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast or its statue, or for anyone branded with its name.

International Standard Version
The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

NET Bible
And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Literal Standard Version
and the smoke of their torment goes up through ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are worshiping the beast and his image, also if any receive the mark of his name.

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name.”

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Smith's Literal Translation
And the smoke of their torture goes up forever and ever: and they have no rest day and night, those worshipping the wild beast and his image, and if any receive the stamp of his name.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And the smoke of their torments shall ascend forever and ever. And they shall have no rest, day or night, those who have worshiped the beast or his image, or who have received the character of his name.”

New American Bible
The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever, and there will be no relief day or night for those who worship the beast or its image or accept the mark of its name.”

New Revised Standard Version
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And the smoke of their torment ascends for the eternity of eternities, and there is no rest, day or night, for those who worship The Beast and its Image and for him who takes the mark of its name.

Anderson New Testament
and the smoke of their torment ascends from age to age: and they who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name, have no rest day or night.

Godbey New Testament
And the smoke of their torment, ascends up into ages of ages: and they have no rest day and night, who worship the beast and his image, and if any one receives the mark of his name.

Haweis New Testament
and the smoke of their torment ascendeth for ever and ever: and they have no respite day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the brand of his name.

Since you provided no commentary, it's anybodies guess as to what point you are hoping to make here? I certainly don't know.

 

[Davidpt]

Long explanations/opinions often lead to confusion.
LOF if take mark AND worship - no disagreement there.
Take the mark yet not worship beast = Christian loses Eph 1:13 seal ?
Now that becomes a problem for those who believe tribulation (MOTB) age saints are covered by Eph 1:13.
My belief is Eph 1:13, Eph 2:8-9 etc ceases before MOTB starts.

Does any of the following reflect your position?

The Church is raptured before the Tribulation.
The Church Age ends at the rapture.
Passages like Ephesians 1:13 (the sealing of the Spirit) apply to the Church, not to those who are saved during the Tribulation.
People can still be saved during the Tribulation, but under a different administrative arrangement (dispensation).

 

[Anchorite]

Very good anchor.
"who worships the beast >>>>>AND<<<<<< takes the mark ""
AND both are required not one >>>>OR<<<<< the other

Did you read the various translations of Rev. 14:11 that I gave you?

They all debunk your theory, with…

Who worships the beast OR takes the mark.

Who worship the beast AND THOSE who take the mark.

 

[Davidpt]

Did you read the various translations of Rev. 14:11 that I gave you?

They all debunk your theory, with…

Who worships the beast OR takes the mark.

Who worship the beast AND THOSE who take the mark.

''

Hmmm...I now understand your point. Initially I didn't.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Revelation 14:11

NIV

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Berean Standard Bible

And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Christian Standard Bible
and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast or its statue, or for anyone branded with its name.

International Standard Version
The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

NET Bible
And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Literal Standard Version
and the smoke of their torment goes up through ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are worshiping the beast and his image, also if any receive the mark of his name.

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name.”

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Smith's Literal Translation
And the smoke of their torture goes up forever and ever: and they have no rest day and night, those worshipping the wild beast and his image, and if any receive the stamp of his name.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And the smoke of their torments shall ascend forever and ever. And they shall have no rest, day or night, those who have worshiped the beast or his image, or who have received the character of his name.”

New American Bible
The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever, and there will be no relief day or night for those who worship the beast or its image or accept the mark of its name.”

New Revised Standard Version
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And the smoke of their torment ascends for the eternity of eternities, and there is no rest, day or night, for those who worship The Beast and its Image and for him who takes the mark of its name.

Anderson New Testament
and the smoke of their torment ascends from age to age: and they who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name, have no rest day or night.

Godbey New Testament
And the smoke of their torment, ascends up into ages of ages: and they have no rest day and night, who worship the beast and his image, and if any one receives the mark of his name.

Haweis New Testament
and the smoke of their torment ascendeth for ever and ever: and they have no respite day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the brand of his name.

Very good anchor.
"who worships the beast >>>>>AND<<<<<< takes the mark ""
AND both are required not one >>>>OR<<<<< the other
..
One example :-
NIV says AND in Rev 14:9,
yet OR in Rev 14:11
But the Greek shows AND not OR

Why ?




Rev 14:9

New International Version
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,


Rev 14:11
New International Version
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

 

[PeterAndroz]

Did you read the various translations of Rev. 14:11 that I gave you?

They all debunk your theory, with…

Who worships the beast OR takes the mark.

Who worship the beast AND THOSE who take the mark.

Most use AND, some use OR

Revelation 14:9 Parallel: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Yet those who use OR in 14:9 change to AND in 14:11

Revelation 14:11 Parallel: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Why does the Greek use AND in 14:9 and not OR ?
Debunk when ready :)

 

[ewq1938]

Whoever takes the mark either if its literal of symbolic will know exactly what they are doing

This verse says differently:

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[PeterAndroz]

This verse says differently:

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

It's an interesting discussion when being polite is obvious.
"both were cast" - do you believe that is the beast AND the false prophet ?

 

[ewq1938]

It's an interesting discussion when being polite is obvious.
"both were cast" - do you believe that is the beast AND the false prophet ?

Yes because those two are cast into the LOF before satan and anyone else is.

 

[CTK]

I understand the point you're making about the word 'and', but I think your argument is separating two things that John never separates.

The issue isn't whether the word 'and' joins two conditions. Of course it does. The issue is whether Revelation ever presents the mark of the beast as something that can be received apart from allegiance to the beast.

Look at the flow of Revelation 13.

First, people worship the dragon and the beast (Rev. 13:4).

Then the false prophet causes the earth to worship the first beast (Rev. 13:12).

Then we're told that those who refuse to worship the image of the beast are to be killed (Rev. 13:15).

Immediately after that, John says the beast causes people to receive the mark (Rev. 13:16).

The mark isn't introduced as some neutral identifier that someone can receive while remaining faithful to Christ. It is introduced in the very context of worship and submission to the beast's authority.

So when Revelation 14:9 says---If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark...

I don't think John is describing two unrelated actions that can be separated. He's describing the same allegiance to the beast. Worship and the mark belong together throughout the narrative.

Revelation 20:4 confirms this. Notice how John describes the faithful---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark...

Again, John doesn't separate the two. He presents the saints as those who refused both the worship and the mark.

You also mentioned Revelation 16:2 doesn't explicitly say those with the mark go to the lof. I agree it doesn't use those exact words. What it does show is that those with the mark are under God's wrath. Then Revelation 14:9-11 explains that wrath, and Revelation 19 and 20 shows the final outcome of those aligned with the beast.

So my question is this.

Where does Revelation ever describe someone who receives the mark but remains faithful to Christ by refusing allegiance to the beast?

I don't see John giving us that category anywhere in the book.

In fact, it seems to me that your argument creates a category that John himself never describes---a person who has the mark but has not actually aligned himself with the beast.

If such a category exists, I'd be interested in seeing where Revelation explicitly presents it. From what I can see, every time John discusses the mark, it is tied to the beast's worship, while the overcomers are consistently identified as those who refused both.

For what it is worth, here is the current narrative for Chapter 14: 9-11, found within the Commentary on the Book of Revelation (still in progress):

Revelation 14:9-11 introduces the third angel’s message, one of the most serious and urgent warnings in all of Scripture. It is the culmination of God’s call to humanity, following the everlasting Gospel (verse 6-7) and the announcement of Babylon’s fall (verse 8). The message is delivered with clarity, power, and finality, urging people to reject the worship of the beast and its image, and to avoid receiving the mark of the beast. It lays bare the eternal consequences of aligning with false systems of worship.

In Revelation 14:9 the angel begins with a loud voice, emphasizing that this message is meant for everyone—no one is excluded. It is a final warning to all who dwell on the earth, confronting them with the most significant decision they will ever make: Whom will you worship? The warning identifies three closely connected expressions of allegiance to the beast:

1. Worshiping the beast – Accepting and submitting to the authority of the sea beast of Revelation 13, understood here as papal Rome and its counterfeit system of worship.
2. Worshiping its image – Supporting or submitting to the restoration of a religious system that reproduces the character, authority, and oppressive practices of the original beast.
3. Receiving the mark on the forehead or hand – Accepting the beast’s authority either through conscious belief and mental allegiance, represented by the forehead, or through outward conformity and practical obedience, represented by the hand. The mark signifies submission to the beast’s authority in opposition to God’s commandments and true worship.

The mark of the beast contrasts sharply with God’s seal—His identification of those who remain faithful to Him (Revelation 7:3). God’s seal signifies loyalty to Him, including keeping His commandments and honoring the Creator. The choice between the mark of the beast and God’s seal reflects the ultimate spiritual battle over worship and allegiance.

For those who align with the beast and its mark, the warning in Revelation 14:10 is clear: They will face God’s judgment.

1. The Wine of God’s Wrath: This is not ordinary judgment; it is poured out “full strength,” meaning undiluted and without mercy. Up to this point, God’s judgments have always included mercy and opportunities to repent, but now the time for repentance has passed. God’s wrath here is a righteous and final judgment against rebellion and sin.
2. Fire and Brimstone: The imagery of fire and brimstone signifies complete and final destruction. This symbolism connects back to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24-28), where God judged sin with fire, leaving a permanent reminder of His justice. This is not unending conscious torment but rather the irreversible consequences of rejecting God.
3. In the Presence of the Lamb and Angels: This phrase ensures that God’s judgment is transparent and just. Jesus (the Lamb) and the angels witness the execution of this judgment, confirming its fairness. God’s actions are always righteous, and no one can claim injustice. = end of page 180

Revelation 14:11 reinforces the finality and seriousness of God’s judgment:

1. The Smoke Ascends Forever: The phrase is symbolic, reflecting the permanence and irreversibility of God’s judgment. Just as the smoke of Sodom and Gomorrah ascended as a lasting sign of their destruction (Genesis 19:28), the smoke here signifies that the consequences of rejecting God are eternal. The wicked will not burn forever, but the effects of their destruction will last forever.
2. No Rest Day or Night: Those who worship the beast and its image experience spiritual unrest and turmoil. By aligning with the beast, they forfeit the peace and rest that God offers to His faithful followers. In contrast, those who keep God’s commandments and have faith in Jesus are promised eternal rest and peace (Revelation 14:13).
3. The Mark of His Name: The repeated emphasis on the mark, the name, and worship highlights the central issue: allegiance. The mark of the beast symbolizes rebellion, while God’s seal represents loyalty and faithfulness to Him.

The third angel’s message is both a warning and a call to action. It declares that the stakes could not be higher: worshiping the beast and receiving its mark leads to eternal destruction, while worshiping God leads to eternal life. This message reveals the final test for all humanity—a choice between true worship and false worship, between God’s truth and Satan’s deceptions. However, even within this solemn warning, we see God’s mercy and justice. The message is proclaimed loudly and clearly, ensuring that everyone has the opportunity to choose. God does not desire anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9), but He respects our free will. The choice is ours to make.

This message also serves as a contrast to the first angel’s call to worship the Creator. The first angel proclaims God’s truth and mercy; the third angel reveals the consequences of rejecting that truth. Together, these messages show God’s unwavering love, justice, and desire to save all who will turn to Him. The third angel’s message is not just a warning for the future—it is relevant today. The battle over worship is already underway. The world is being shaped by forces that challenge God’s Word, distort His truth, and promote counterfeit systems of worship. This message calls us to examine our hearts, our worship, and our loyalty. Are we following God’s commandments and holding to the faith of Jesus, or are we compromising with the false systems of the beast? This is the time to decide, for the hour of judgment has come, and God’s mercy is still extended to all who will hear and respond. The third angel’s message is God’s final plea to humanity—a plea to choose Him, to reject the mark of the beast, and to stand firm in faith, no matter the cost.

 

[Davidpt]

[*]No Rest Day or Night: Those who worship the beast and its image experience spiritual unrest and turmoil. By aligning with the beast, they forfeit the peace and rest that God offers to His faithful followers. In contrast, those who keep God’s commandments and have faith in Jesus are promised eternal rest and peace (Revelation 14:13).

When and where are you proposing they experience this 'no rest day or night'? Maybe we are somewhat on the same page in regard to some of that? Or maybe not.

 

[CTK]

When and where are you proposing they experience this 'no rest day or night'? Maybe we are somewhat on the same page in regard to some of that? Or maybe not.

Right above these 3 you will find this statement:

Revelation 14:11 reinforces the finality and seriousness of God’s judgment:

 

[Marty fox]

This verse says differently:

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

I’m talking about rejecting Jesus and giving into sin.

Satan can’t make anyone do anything it’s always our choice

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 14: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever = Revelation 18:9-24 = Revelation 19:2-3. But does it also = Revelation 20:10-15? Because if it does, one then has to explain those Standing afar off for the fear of her torment(Rev 18:10) and in what way is that describing Revelation 20:11-15?

Per the Amil view some hold, Some of these Amils have the planet literally engulfed in flames in the end of this age. Therefore, no one would be standing afar off observing anything per that scenario, in any sense. Yet Revelation 18:10 has to fit something somewhere. It is obviously not meaning during the great white throne judgment if some are standing afar off observing these things. That's not even remotely the same context as Revelation 20:11-15, yet matches to a T what Revelation 14:11 records though--And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

 

[ewq1938]

I’m talking about rejecting Jesus and giving into sin.

Satan can’t make anyone do anything it’s always our choice

Then why does the bible speak of him deceiving people? Are you saying he fails at actually deceiving them and they fully choose the mark?

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.