MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[David Lamb]

The Bible says the beast causes all to take his mark doesn’t it?

Where? I imagine you are thinking of this verse:

Rev_13:16 NKJV He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads.

That verse makes clear that "all" in that context refers to men of every rank in society, mall and great, rich and poor, free and slave. If it meant that everybody without exception received the mark, many of the other verses that mention the mark would not make sense. For example:

Rev_14:9 NKJV Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand

It wouldn't say "if" if everybody had the mark.

This verse talks about those who had not received the mark:

Rev_20:4 NKJV And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[IndianaRob]

If you are implying what I think you are implying, I then 100% disagree. So let's look at the text itself.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

Let's don't be like, for example, a Universalist that believes everyone is saved regardless, where any time 'all' is used in a passage connected with the subject salvation, that it means to them every single person, including the unsaved. Except, in general, the 'all' is determined via the context. Therefore, the 'all' meant in verse 16 above is not meaning every single person on the planet. It is only meaning those that don't refuse to worship the beast.


Not to mention, Revelation 20:4 already makes this plainly crystal clear---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

The text does not say 'had'. It says 'had not'. Therefore, the 'all' meant in Revelation 13:16 is not literally meaning every single person on the planet at the time. It certainly isn't meaning anyone in Revelation 20:4, the fact that verse says 'had not' worshiped, rather than 'had worshiped'.

It certainly can't be including anyone that refuses to worship the image of the beast. But there are consequences for refusing to worship it's image. Such as, that person is to be killed. That person is unable to buy and sell unless that person has the MOTB. The latter alone proves that not everyone takes the MOTB. Because if everyone did, that would mean everyone on the planet are able to buy and sell. The point would be moot if everyone has the MOTB.

The grammar is clear even if we don't like what it says. All means all. That single word is one of the main keys to understanding what the mark actually is.

If "all" lined up with what you already think the mark is, you'd have no problem making the argument that all means all. I get it, it's easy to do that with scripture without even realizing it.

 

[David Lamb]

The grammar is clear even if we don't like what it says. All means all. That single word is one of the main keys to understanding what the mark actually is.

If "all" lined up with what you already think the mark is, you'd have no problem making the argument that all means all. I get it, it's easy to do that with scripture without even realizing it.

So if "all" means "everybody with no exceptions", how can Revelation 20:4 speak of those who had not received the mark?

 

[IndianaRob]

The question that seems to resolve this is a simple one--- when John sees the entire sequence of events from beginning to end, does he give any indication that someone who receives the mark of the beast can later repent and reverse that decision?

Because if the claim is that “everybody gets the mark---no exceptions, whether by deception or by choice, and that a believer can later recover from that, then that assumes the mark is something a true believer can receive and later undo.

But is that what John actually shows us?

When John describes those who receive the mark, he consistently connects it with worship and allegiance to the beast.

Revelation 14:9-11 says---If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,thr same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God

Notice that John does not describe a group of believers who received the mark, later repented, and were restored. The warning is presented as a final act of allegiance that brings judgment.

Revelation 16:2 likewise speaks of judgment coming upon---the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Again, those with the mark are identified with those who worship the beast.

Then in Revelation 19:20, those connected with the beast’s worship are judged---...them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire

Now compare that with Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

John specifically identifies the faithful as those who did not receive the mark.

So when we look at John's entire account, where is the example of someone receiving the mark, later repenting, and reversing it? I do not see one.

Someone may argue that God's forgiveness is greater than any sin, and that is a broader theological discussion. But from the text of Revelation itself, the mark is not presented as a minor mistake that a believer makes and later corrects. It is presented as an act of worship and allegiance to the beast.

That is why the statement 'how a believer recovers from that' seems to assume something that Revelation never actually shows---that a true believer receives the mark then recovers from it later on.

The text repeatedly presents the saints as those who overcome by refusing the beast, refusing his image, and refusing his mark.

No, John doesn't directly say someone received the mark and later repented. But indirectly, Rev 16:8-9 points that way — you said it yourself: repentance is still possible at this point, except John sees that they never repent. And they repented not to give him glory. Not "couldn't." Repented not. That's a door being refused, not one that never existed.

 

[IndianaRob]

Where? I imagine you are thinking of this verse:

Rev_13:16 NKJV He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads.

That verse makes clear that "all" in that context refers to men of every rank in society, mall and great, rich and poor, free and slave. If it meant that everybody without exception received the mark, many of the other verses that mention the mark would not make sense. For example:

Rev_14:9 NKJV Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand

It wouldn't say "if" if everybody had the mark.

This verse talks about those who had not received the mark:

Rev_20:4 NKJV And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

None of it can make sense until we understand what the mark is, and that can't be understood unless we accept that all means all.

In other words, under different circumstances "he causeth all" would be accepted as written. But instead of using that as one of the keys to understanding the whole passage, people already have their minds made up about what the mark is — and in that view, it can't possibly mean "all," because that doesn't match what they already believe.

 

[David Lamb]

None of it can make sense until we understand what the mark is, and that can't be understood unless we accept that all means all.

In other words, under different circumstances "he causeth all" would be accepted as written. But instead of using that as one of the keys to understanding the whole passage, people already have their minds made up about what the mark is — and in that view, it can't possibly mean "all," because that doesn't match what they already believe.

That doesn't fit with my position. The Bible does not say what the mark is. You say that it cannot make sense until we understand what it is. As for the meaning of "all", as I said before, it cannot possibly mean everybody with no exceptions, because in Revelation 20:4 we read of those who had not received the mark of the beast. It doesn't say that they had received it, then repented, and had it removed.

 

[WPM]

......receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Yet the verse states OR not AND
Based on that verse, if a Christian receives the mark in his hand OR in his forehead yet does NOT worship the beast/image then he has not met all 3 conditions required to be sent to the LOF

It is a spiritual mark of no return. Believers do not take it.

 

[WPM]

Yet in Revelation 14:9, Rev 14:11 , John uses the word AND not OR
Both conditions are required not one or the other.
Rev 16:2 writes of a punishment for taking the mark yet does not teach go to LOF.
What verses teach otherwise ?

You need to interpret Scripture with Scripture.

Jesus testified in Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The beast cannot deceive the elect, because it is not possible. They are enlightened by the Holy Spirit. They are not ignorant of the devices of the enemy.

Revelation 13:3-4 states, “all the world wondered (thaumazo or admired and marvelled) after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast.”

Revelation 13:8 states, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

Revelation 17:8: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (thaumazo or admire or marvel), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast.”

We cannot in anyway underestimate the power and sway of the beast. His allegiance is comprehensive. In fact, every single human being whose name is not written in the lamb’s book of life from the foundation of the earth ends up submitting to him.

 

[Scott Downey]

None of it can make sense until we understand what the mark is, and that can't be understood unless we accept that all means all.

In other words, under different circumstances "he causeth all" would be accepted as written. But instead of using that as one of the keys to understanding the whole passage, people already have their minds made up about what the mark is — and in that view, it can't possibly mean "all," because that doesn't match what they already believe.

Seems beast worship comes before being marked
The ones who refuse to worship the beast are killed, they don't worship the beast, they worship the Christ and the Father.
They receive an anointing from God to know the truth, that would be all the Spirit filled believers where He is living inside of them.

Meaning all who worshipped the beast, all of them get the mark too.
No saved believers receive the mark.

Watch the process unfold here, if your name is not written in the book of life, only then will you be deceived and be a beast worshipper.

WAR with the saints
Power over all nations given to the beast
All worship beast if they are not saved believers
The ones that don't worship the beast are killed, so if beast has hold of you, and you don't worship beast or it's image, your dead, v15.
Lying wonders-false miracles performed to deceive the unbelieving
Only then, all are marked, but as you see earlier the ones who wont worship beast have been killed-eliminated
Only ones left alive in the beast's power are the lost unsaved unbelieving.

This marking is the last lying thing the dragon does, v16
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Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 13 - 21st Century King James Version

And I stood upon the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as...

www.biblegateway.com

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity. He that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him; and he causeth the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

14 And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the earth that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword and lived.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause to be killed as many as would not worship the image of the beast.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads,

17 that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom: Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six.

 

[Marty fox]

Then why does the bible speak of him deceiving people? Are you saying he fails at actually deceiving them and they fully choose the mark?

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

He deceive them but its still our choice to sin, the devil can't make anyone sin its our responsibility

James 1
12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Rev 20:4...and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads
Rev 14:9 ...If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
.....
An interesting point has been raised .
If a Christian takes the MOTB yet does not worship the beast/image, will said Christian go to the LOF since the verses appear to imply that BOTH take mark and worship are required

One is a restatement of the other, to add emphasis to the outrageousness of the Sin. When one takes the Mark of the Beast he is choosing to worship an Antichrist in place of worshiping the one true God. Both elements indicate the same thing, and will be visited with Eternal Judgment.

Incidentally, I think the Lake of Fire is a judgment of annihilation as opposed to a judgment of torture. It is a removal of persons to Outer Darkness where they cannot molest the saints on the New Earth.

To think God judges by torturing people with fire is to charge God with unbelievable cruelty, and He is not cruel. But to remove people permanently from the New Jerusalem is what people have chosen when they reject God's rightful place as Lord in their lives, especially replacing Him with something infinitely inferior to Him.

Don't misunderstand me--I'm *not* for Annihilationism--the belief that the Damned are eternally annihilated and cease to exist. Rather, I believe the Damned are merely annihilated from God's presence among the saints. That is what I think the Lake of Fire represents--a purification of God's holy dwelling.

 

[WPM]

One is a restatement of the other, to add emphasis to the outrageousness of the Sin. When one takes the Mark of the Beast he is choosing to worship an Antichrist in place of worshiping the one true God. Both elements indicate the same thing, and will be visited with Eternal Judgment.

Incidentally, I think the Lake of Fire is a judgment of annihilation as opposed to a judgment of torture. It is a removal of persons to Outer Darkness where they cannot molest the saints on the New Earth.

To think God judges by torturing people with fire is to charge God with unbelievable cruelty, and He is not cruel. But to remove people permanently from the New Jerusalem is what people have chosen when they reject God's rightful place as Lord in their lives, especially replacing Him with something infinitely inferior to Him.

Don't misunderstand me--I'm *not* for Annihilationism--the belief that the Damned are eternally annihilated and cease to exist. Rather, I believe the Damned are merely annihilated from God's presence among the saints. That is what I think the Lake of Fire represents--a purification of God's holy dwelling.

Why not say banished or barred from God's presence? The word annihilated doesn't equate and creates confusion.

 

[IndianaRob]

So if "all" means "everybody with no exceptions", how can Revelation 20:4 speak of those who had not received the mark?

There's all kinds of debate around what the mark is, and that's why I keep saying we have to use all these verses together to figure it out.

Whatever the mark is, it has to fit two things: all receive it, and it's something that can be repented from. Any definition that can't do both isn't the right one.

 

[Anchorite]

There's all kinds of debate around what the mark is, and that's why I keep saying we have to use all these verses together to figure it out.

Whatever the mark is, it has to fit two things: all receive it, and it's something that can be repented from. Any definition that can't do both isn't the right one.

What scripture says the mark of the beast can be repented of?

 

[Marty fox]

There's all kinds of debate around what the mark is, and that's why I keep saying we have to use all these verses together to figure it out.

Whatever the mark is, it has to fit two things: all receive it, and it's something that can be repented from. Any definition that can't do both isn't the right one.

Its the same scenario as the seal in the verse below. Gods seal is symbolic and the promise of salvation. The mark is symbolic and they won't repent they are doomed

Ephesians 1
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why not say banished or barred from God's presence? The word annihilated doesn't equate and creates confusion.

I agree, but I explained. The reason I used the word "annihilated" is because I wished to make the distinction between fire as a means of "removal" and fire as a means of "torture."

The garbage dump of gehenna was not a means of torturing garbage. Rather, it was a means of burning up the trash to remove it and its smell.

That is the Lake of Fire--a means of removal--a complete removal from the New Earth, as I see it.

Thanks for your understanding. I don't wish to marginalize the importance of Eternal Punishment--just remove from it the horrid depiction of God as Grand Inquisitor who tortures His detractors by roasting them alive for all eternity. I wouldn't put my worst enemy through a single hour of burning like that!

But removing people completely from the New Earth into Outer Darkness. I can live with that depiction!

 

[Marty fox]

As to this mark in question. According to the text per Revelation 13, there is not a mark to take or not take until a first beast rises out of the sea, and it's deadly wound has been healed. And that a 2nd beast then rises out of the earth then fulfills everything written about it in Revelation 13:14-15. In the meantime, until verses 14-15 are fulfilled first, whatever that might look like when it is fulfilled, there is no MOTB yet. How could there be when there can't be until verses 14-15 are fulfilled first? We have be logical here, at the least. Nothing logical about what you are proposing if any of what you are proposing assumes an era of time before verses 14-15 are even fulfilled first. And that you can't even arrive at verses 14-15 without arriving at Revelation 13:1 first, then what all that involves, to begin with.

And when John saw the visions, he indicated that the beast ascends from the pit sometime in the future.

And the fact that Revelation 13:1 and the beast ascending out of the pit is obviously describing the same event. Therefore, the mark can't simply be what you take it to mean. There certainly wasn't this MOTB during John's day when he initially saw these visions if Revelation 13:1 is meaning post his day and that you can't arrive at Revelation 13:14-15 without arriving at Revelation 13:1 first, that being when the beast initially ascends out of the pit.

Dave, we have been over this many times before and I have stated to you that I believe that this was in the past in the first century.

Why do you think the mark or the beast coming out of the pit was post Johns day?

 

[Anchorite]

I agree, but I explained. The reason I used the word "annihilated" is because I wished to make the distinction between fire as a means of "removal" and fire as a means of "torture."

The garbage dump of gehenna was not a means of torturing garbage. Rather, it was a means of burning up the trash to remove it and its smell.

That is the Lake of Fire--a means of removal--a complete removal from the New Earth, as I see it.

Thanks for your understanding. I don't wish to marginalize the importance of Eternal Punishment--just remove from it the horrid depiction of God as Grand Inquisitor who tortures His detractors by roasting them alive for all eternity. I wouldn't put my worst enemy through a single hour of burning like that!

But removing people completely from the New Earth into Outer Darkness. I can live with that depiction!

I have wondered if the eternal torment is actually the conscience accusing the sinner, filling it with regrets and remorse, with the realization that nothing can be done to make amends.

If the sinner suppressed his conscience, or it was seared, in hell, the conscience is suddenly re-activated and restored to full functioning.

So the sinner is torturing himself. He caused this himself, it’s not God raking him over the coals.

Their worm never dies.

Many historical and theological commentators suggest the worm is a metaphor for a guilty conscience, gnawing eternally at the memory and soul of the unrepentant individual from within.

 

[Davidpt]

I agree, but I explained. The reason I used the word "annihilated" is because I wished to make the distinction between fire as a means of "removal" and fire as a means of "torture."

The garbage dump of gehenna was not a means of torturing garbage. Rather, it was a means of burning up the trash to remove it and its smell.

That is the Lake of Fire--a means of removal--a complete removal from the New Earth, as I see it.

Thanks for your understanding. I don't wish to marginalize the importance of Eternal Punishment--just remove from it the horrid depiction of God as Grand Inquisitor who tortures His detractors by roasting them alive for all eternity. I wouldn't put my worst enemy through a single hour of burning like that!

But removing people completely from the New Earth into Outer Darkness. I can live with that depiction!

IMO, the fire is 100% literal fire. That changes things then if humans cast into it can never die again even though it's called the 2nd death. As to verse 10, the 2nd death is not relevant in satan's case. A 2nd death implies a first death. satan has never died, period. Thus is unable to die, thus why he shall be literally tormented day and night for ever and ever. Humans on the other hand were never created immortal, thus have the ability to die. Not only one time but two times in some cases.

I suspect the real reason why you can live with it is because you have apparently decided that the fire is not literal. But if it is, and in my view it is literal, how do you still live with it in that case? It seems to me the ones that promote ECT for humans water down their fate by insisting the fire is not literal. Except I can't do that, water things down then conclude the fire is not literal. Therefore, to be in the LOF forever in a conscious state is not as bad as it could have been had the fire been literal, per a view like yours.

The following, for one, clearly contradicts that humans cast into the LOF can never die again.

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Look what verse 36 plainly says---Neither can they die any more. In context that does not remotely also include any humans cast into the LOF. In order for ECT to be true of humans it has to mean they can't die any more. That's just common sense. Which is it then? Only humans which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, that can't die any more? Or all humans, including all the lost, can't die any more? It can't be both. It has to be one or the other. And if we make it the latter we have just contradicted the former.

Maybe some interpreters, in general, feel context is irrelevant? Except I'm not one of those interpreters.

 

[Anchorite]

IMO, the fire is 100% literal fire. That changes things then if humans cast into it can never die again even though it's called the 2nd death. As to verse 10, the 2nd death is not relevant in satan's case. A 2nd death implies a first death. satan has never died, period. Thus is unable to die, thus why he shall be literally tormented day and night for ever and ever. Humans on the other hand were never created immortal, thus have the ability to die. Not only one time but two times in some cases.

I suspect the real reason why you can live with it is because you have apparently decided that the fire is not literal. But if it is, and in my view it is literal, how do you still live with it in that case? It seems to me the ones that promote ECT for humans water down their fate by insisting the fire is not literal. Except I can't do that, water things down then conclude the fire is not literal. Therefore, to be in the LOF forever in a conscious state is not as bad as it could have been had the fire been literal, per a view like yours.

What is accomplished by literal fire? Only physical pain.

But if the fire represents the flames of a guilty conscience tormenting a person, it means the sins committed were not transient, but were designing an eternal environment of mind-boggling regret and remorse. This would be a mental misery amplified by knowing there is no escape, no relief, no ability to become good, no opportunity to repent and be forgiven.

If you ever felt rotten about how you treated a loved one, it agonizes you as you realize more and more what you did, and now they’re dead, so you cannot apologize or treat them better, you have had a taste of this lake of fire.