MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[Scott Downey]

I think that's a big part of it. I often wonder if Eternal Torment will be much like the earth is presently, with God's presence limited, causing us to feel as if God is far off at times? I've been through lots and lots of times that felt like "Hell" to me, and the anguish is as great a punishment as imaginable if taken on an eternal basis.

I agree with those of us who deny that God relishes torturing people, or is even forced to torture people by their own choice. God has absolute control and is perfectlty just. Those who don't like Him will not have Him. To those of us who love Him that is imaginable torment. For those who do not like or want God they will still miss His presence in many ways, and not particularly enjoy an eternally dark world. But I'm sure God will put them to good use in some way--it's just not our prerogative to know at this time.

What did the demons ask Christ?

29 And behold, they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with Thee, Jesus, Thou Son of God? Art Thou come hither to torment us before the time?”

Their torment begins after the judgement in the Lake of Fire, not where they are currently.

Christ dismisses them to go into the pigs. That judgment of torment is still future for them.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 8 - 21st Century King James Version

When He had come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed Him. And behold, there came a leper and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if Thou wilt, Thou canst make me clean." And Jesus put forth His hand and touched him, saying, "I will: be thou clean." And immediately his leprosy was...

www.biblegateway.com

28 And when He had come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

29 And behold, they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with Thee, Jesus, Thou Son of God? Art Thou come hither to torment us before the time?”

30 Now there was a good way off from them a herd of many swine feeding.

31 So the devils besought Him, saying, “If Thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.”

32 And He said to them, “Go.” And when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine, and behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea and perished in the waters.

 

[ewq1938]

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

That comes from the POT which is talking about dead bodies not people alive in torment.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The men addressed here are dead and the fire is not causing any pain.

 

[David in NJ]

Anyone can repent regarding any sin. It's whether or not the repentance results in forgiveness or not. The only clear unforgivable sin is blasphemy pof the HS and that followed an example of the Jewish priests attributing Jesu miracles to the devil etc. I'm not sure if being deceived or pressured into taking the mark is unforgivable.

The MoB is unforgiveable because it is directed at the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit seals a person's spirit who comes to CHRIST.

When a person receives the MoB, they SEALED their fate, which is irreversable.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What did the demons ask Christ?

29 And behold, they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with Thee, Jesus, Thou Son of God? Art Thou come hither to torment us before the time?”

Their torment begins after the judgement in the Lake of Fire, not where they are currently.

I don't know. It seems the demons were worried about being tormented immediately.

Christ dismisses them to go into the pigs. That judgment of torment is still future for them.

It was for that group. But it seems elsewhere in Scriptures that some demons are already in torment.

 

[Davidpt]

The MoB is unforgiveable because it is directed at the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit seals a person's spirit who comes to CHRIST.

When a person receives the MoB, they SEALED their fate, which is irreversable.

I tend to agree. And besides, I'm already not arguing the MOTB can be reversed once one takes it. John saw everything from start to finish. Nothing he saw indicated one can receive the MOTB, then repent, then it be reversed as if it never happened

 

[David in NJ]

I tend to agree. And besides, I'm already not arguing the MOTB can be reversed once one takes it. John saw everything from start to finish. Nothing he saw indicated one can receive the MOTB, then repent, then it be reversed as if it never happened

AGREE

No repentance is granted from the MoB in Revelation

 

[WPM]

IMO, the fire is 100% literal fire. That changes things then if humans cast into it can never die again even though it's called the 2nd death.

You seem to make it up as you go - all according to your own theology.

There's no consistency to your theology. You chop and change, to justify what you believe. I will put your beliefs to the test:

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

• Do you believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
• Do you believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
• Do you believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
• Do you believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?

 

[Scott Downey]

I don't know. It seems the demons were worried about being tormented immediately.

It was for that group. But it seems elsewhere in Scriptures that some demons are already in torment.

Fallen angels appear to be locked up in the deepest part of hell.

Bible Gateway passage: Jude 5-7 - 21st Century King James Version

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who believed not. And the angels who kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains...

www.biblegateway.com

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who believed not.

6 And the angels who kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great Day—

7 even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2
4 For if God spared not the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment;

5 and spared not the old world, but saved Noah, the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the Flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 and, turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to be overthrown, making them an example unto those who thereafter should live ungodly;

7 and if He delivered righteous Lot, vexed with the filthy conduct of the wicked

8 (for that righteous man, having dwelt among them seeing and hearing, was vexed in his righteous soul day after day with their unlawful deeds)—

9 then the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust unto the Day of Judgment to be punished,

 

[PeterAndroz]

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark ""
Worhsip AND take mark = LOF
AND = Both are required to go to the LOF
But if the Christian ONLY takes the mark but does NOT worship the beast, what happens then ?

 

[David in NJ]

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark ""
Worhsip AND take mark = LOF
AND = Both are required to go to the LOF
But if the Christian ONLY takes the mark but does NOT worship the beast, what happens then ?

Accepting the MoB is worship.

Read it again = one leads to the next one

 

[PeterAndroz]

Accepting the MoB is worship.

Read it again = one leads to the next one

Worshipping at Church ALWAYS = a person is a believer ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

One is a restatement of the other, to add emphasis to the outrageousness of the Sin. When one takes the Mark of the Beast he is choosing to worship an Antichrist in place of worshiping the one true God. Both elements indicate the same thing, and will be visited with Eternal Judgment.

Incidentally, I think the Lake of Fire is a judgment of annihilation as opposed to a judgment of torture. It is a removal of persons to Outer Darkness where they cannot molest the saints on the New Earth.

To think God judges by torturing people with fire is to charge God with unbelievable cruelty, and He is not cruel. But to remove people permanently from the New Jerusalem is what people have chosen when they reject God's rightful place as Lord in their lives, especially replacing Him with something infinitely inferior to Him.

Don't misunderstand me--I'm *not* for Annihilationism--the belief that the Damned are eternally annihilated and cease to exist. Rather, I believe the Damned are merely annihilated from God's presence among the saints. That is what I think the Lake of Fire represents--a purification of God's holy dwelling

Your explanation is confirmed when John uses the word OR yet he use AND (KAI)
AND & OR have different meanings.
Look at the Greek
EVERY occurrence of the word AND is KAI
Rev 14:9, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark

Rev 14:11 who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your explanation is confirmed when John uses the word OR yet he use AND (KAI)
AND & OR have different meanings.
Look at the Greek
EVERY occurrence of the word AND is KAI

Yes, I believe you're right. However, my brother is much, much better at Greek than I am! ;)

 

[ewq1938]

The MoB is unforgiveable because it is directed at the Holy Spirit.

How? It seems to be a mark to identify one as belonging to the beast as the mark is somehow related to his name.

I don't think that is a blasphemy directly against the HS though. If it said the mark is a mark against the HS, then sure but I don't see it being like that. It basically ensures the HS won't go to that person but perhaps repentance/forgiveness is possible. Some gang members still have their gang tattoos but are changed people. Maybe the MoB can be similar for those who regret it and repent.

When a person receives the MoB, they SEALED their fate, which is irreversable.

I don't see any passage saying anything about being sealed in regard to the mark, nor that one cannot be un-marked. A tattoo can be erased, or a microchip be removed, or mind can be changed from serving the beast to rejecting him.

How many people have served satan their entire lives but then found Jesus and repented and are no longer satan's?

 

[Anchorite]

I think it is very dangerous and unwise to try to convince people that you can take the mark of the beast, so long as you do not also worship the beast.

By trying to make this claim, based on a dubious perceived technicality, that does not support this idea, it is like someone wants to be able to buy and sell during the tribulation, so they do not starve to death. They are trying to avoid being a martyr.

Then the person adds “so my friends and family will not be executed” — but nowhere in Revelation does it say that taking the motb will save your friends and family from being executed.

Revelation 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



I have provided plenty of translations of Revelation 14:9 that say “who worship the beast OR take the mark of the beast”.

Plus, the KJV of Revelation 14:11 says “who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” indicating two different damned groups, the worshipers and the marked.

It could also be argued that worshiping the beast automatically puts the mark of the beast on you to identify the haters of God.

Why risk the lake of fire based on shoddy interpretations?

 

[Davidpt]

You seem to make it up as you go - all according to your own theology.

There's no consistency to your theology. You chop and change, to justify what you believe. I will put your beliefs to the test:

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

• Do you believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
• Do you believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
• Do you believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
• Do you believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?

It's not that I want the fire or need the fire to be literal in the LOF. I would hope it isn't literal. Except fire is used way too many times to describe this place to not take it in the literal sense.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.


Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Take Matthew 13:42, for instance. Anyone familiar with the book of Daniel would be thinking the following.

Daniel 3:19 ¶Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.

Was that furnace of fire literal? Of course it was. The following undeniably proves it.

Daniel 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

But to answer all your questions so that you do not think I'm avoiding them, the answer to all of them is no, in regards to it meaning literal. But I do agree with the timing of these things you submitted. And I have numerous reasons why the literal can't be meant. One of them being Revelation 18:10. Can't have anyone standing afar off observing, in any sense, if what you submitted per 2 Peter 3 is to be taken as literal.

But that is hardly the only reason I don't take those things in 2 Peter 3 in the literal sense. But it is among the major reasons I don't.

 

[Anchorite]

It's not that I want the fire or need the fire to be literal in the LOF. I would hope it isn't literal. Except fire is used way too many times to describe this place to not take it in the literal sense.

But to answer all your questions so that you do not think I'm avoiding them, the answer to all of them is no, in regards to it meaning literal. But I do agree with the timing of these things you submitted. And I have numerous reasons why the literal can't be meant. One of them being Revelation 18:10. Can't have anyone standing afar off observing, in any sense, if what you submitted per 2 Peter 3 is to be taken as literal.

But that is hardly the only reason I don't take those things in 2 Peter 3 in the literal sense. But it is among the major reasons I don't.

First you say the fire must be literal.

Then you say you don’t think the fire is literal.

 

[Davidpt]

First you say the fire must be literal.

Then you say you don’t think the fire is literal.

I edited and rewrote what I previously said in this post in order to make my position a bit clearer, below.

If you're referring to my comments about 2 Peter 3, I've already explained why I don't take the fire there as literal.

Here's why.

I understand Revelation 14:11 (the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever) to occur during the DOTL---the same DOTL Peter is discussing in 2 Peter 3.

I also understand the smoke of Revelation 14:11 to correspond with Revelation 19:2-3, which in turn is connected with Revelation 18:10 and the surrounding passage concerning Babylon's judgment.

If 2 Peter 3:10-12 were describing a literal, all-consuming destruction of the earth by fire at that point, then Revelation 18:10 becomes difficult to reconcile with it. The passage depicts people standing afar off, watching Babylon's destruction and lamenting what has happened. That scene does not fit a universe that has already been literally consumed by fire.

Furthermore, if someone argues that Revelation 14:11 refers to the LOF, then where is the parallel in Revelation 20:11-15 to Revelation 18:10? Where, during the GWTJ, do we find people standing at a distance, observing Babylon's destruction and mourning over it? We don't.

It doesn't matter that Babylon itself is symbolic. The people represented by Babylon are real, just as the 'holy city' in Revelation 11:2 is not a literal city, yet it represents real people. Likewise, the New Jerusalem represents the people of God.

My point is simple. Revelation 18:10 fits the DOTL judgment, but it does not fit the scene of Revelation 20:11-15. Therefore, I do not believe Revelation 18, Revelation 14:11, and 2 Peter 3 should automatically be interpreted as referring to the final LOF judgment.

 

[ewq1938]

It's not that I want the fire or need the fire to be literal in the LOF. I would hope it isn't literal. Except fire is used way too many times to describe this place to not take it in the literal sense.

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Yes, I believe you're right. However, my brother is much, much better at Greek than I am! ;)

Thanks Randy,
I simply listed what's publicly available but am not the author nor a translator.
Your brothers thoughts would be interesting.
When it comes to Biblical Greek to ye Olde Biblical English translation of the NT, I'm confident that the Scholars back then (1500's, 1600's) knew what they were doing