MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[IndianaRob]

Jesus called it a den of robbers, not a den of sellers.

“It is written,” he said to them, “ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”

You're right that He said robbers and not sellers. But look at where the phrase comes from — He's quoting Jeremiah 7:11, and that changes what it means.

Jeremiah 7:9-11: "Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations? Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes?"

Notice the robbers aren't robbing anyone in the house. They steal and murder and commit adultery out there, then come and stand in the temple and say they're delivered. A den is where robbers go to hide, not where they do their robbing. The charge is that they'd turned God's house into a hideout — a place to feel safe while living any way they pleased.

So "den of thieves" isn't about overcharging at the tables. It's Jesus laying Jeremiah's indictment on them.

And John's account of the cleansing has no robbery charge in it at all. Just "make not my Father's house an house of merchandise."

 

[IndianaRob]

Think moment = If they were not "buying and selling items" , then no sin occurred in the Temple.

Physical Temple with physical players(humans) selling physical items.

It's a sin to "make my Father's house an house of merchandise."

 

[WPM]

But this merchandise was not doctrines or ideas, it was physical items, animals and birds for sacrifice.

You do not grasp visionary, parables and apocalyptic language. It is typically metaphoric. Are we real sheep? Are the wicked really goats? Revelation is the most figurative book in the Bible, and you are trying to literalize it. You do not grasp the whole genre of it. You do not compare Scripture with Scripture. You have no corroboration for your claims - none elsewhere in the Bible. Salvation is always by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Reprobation is always through a rejection of Christ. That does not change in Revelation. It agrees with the Bible pattern from the beginning. You're inventing a new theology that contradicts the rest of Scripture.

 

[Anchorite]

You're right that He said robbers and not sellers. But look at where the phrase comes from — He's quoting Jeremiah 7:11, and that changes what it means.

Jeremiah 7:9-11: "Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations? Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes?"

Notice the robbers aren't robbing anyone in the house. They steal and murder and commit adultery out there, then come and stand in the temple and say they're delivered. A den is where robbers go to hide, not where they do their robbing. The charge is that they'd turned God's house into a hideout — a place to feel safe while living any way they pleased.

So "den of thieves" isn't about overcharging at the tables. It's Jesus laying Jeremiah's indictment on them.

And John's account of the cleansing has no robbery charge in it at all. Just "make not my Father's house an house of merchandise."

Excellent point about the meaning of den.

A den primarily means the resting place or lair of a wild animal. In human spaces, it refers to a cozy, private room in a house used for relaxing, or a hidden spot associated with illicit activities. Like a gambling den or opium den. It is a secluded or hidden location where people meet for secret or illegal activities.

In Jeremiah 7:9-11, the stealing, murdering, etc. were happening outside the temple, but perhaps also in the temple.

But when Jesus cleansed the temple, robbing was happening in the place where the animal sellers and money exchangers were doing business. Like how opium use occurs in an opium den.

Some scholars say the animal sellers and money exchangers set up shop in the Court of the Gentiles—the only area designated for non-Jewish people to pray—making a quiet, reverent atmosphere impossible.

 

[WPM]

Why not? Have you noticed the frenzy of building AI data centers? There may be a drastic decrease of global population if famine, pandemics, wars increase.

Revelation 13

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This is what Premil produces - a fixation with the natural, earthly, temporal and physical. They miss the spiritual.

 

[Anchorite]

You do not grasp visionary, parables and apocalyptic language. It is typically metaphoric. Are we real sheep? Are the wicked really goats? Revelation is the most figurative book in the Bible, and you are trying to literalize it. You do not grasp the whole genre of it. You do not compare Scripture with Scripture. You have no corroboration for your claims - none elsewhere in the Bible. Salvation is always by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Reprobation is always through a rejection of Christ. That does not change in Revelation. It agrees with the Bible pattern from the beginning. You're inventing a new theology that contradicts the rest of Scripture.

You are trying to turn literal things into symbols.

You apparently want to not worry about getting a physical mark of the beast, by claiming it is just a metaphor, when the technology currently exists for the physical realty of the beast system.

Some things in Revelation are symbolic, while other things are literal.

Revelation 6:6

Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures,saying, “Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

 

[WPM]

The 'mark' will be required in order to buy & sell.
How will a 'marked' person know who they can buy or sell with ?
Simple easy question, if you don't know then say so :)

Jesus said in Matthew 6:19-21, “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

The believer does not belong to the system of this world nor do its wares appeal to him. The trading that he engages in and the riches he possesses belong to another realm – a heavenly. The Christians economy is centered in heaven and it is from there that he receives his spiritual provision. Colossians 3:1-2: “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”

Worldly wealth or public standing cannot satisfy the believer nor equal the bountiful blessings that God supplies within the kingdom of heaven. It is spiritual wealth and righteous standing that appeal to him. The Lord speaks of the only wealth that can truly satisfy, when speaking to the disobedient Laodiceans in Revelation 3:18, saying, “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich.”

The Lord makes a strange diagnosis. He instructs the Laodiceans (who were materially rich) to purchase “gold” (yes, gold) in order to be pleasing unto God. Now, even the most hyper-literalist Futurist would concede that no amount of gold assets could in any way improve the spiritual standing of an individual in the eyes of a righteous God. Such language is simply used, in keeping with the whole character of this apocalyptic book, to symbolize the reality that is found in God. Gold speaks of genuineness; Gold speaks of purity. It is a natural fact; God makes gold but man manufactures brass.

• Gold represents the real. Brass represents the imitation.
• Gold represents the genuine. Brass represents the counterfeit.
• Gold represents the true. Brass represents the false.
• Gold represents everything that is right. Brass represents everything that is erroneous.
• Gold represents that which is right, just and holy. Brass represents that which is bogus, fake or sham.

The Laodiceans boasted, “I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing” (v. 17). You see they probably had much material wealth and probably much literal gold, but they lacked the spiritual wealth and heavenly gold that comes alone from God. They were materially rich, but spiritually poor.

John Stott asks in his book ‘What Christ Thinks of the Church’, on the seven churches, “why does he (Christ) recommend the Laodiceans to buy from him? Can salvation be bought? No. Certainly not. It is a free gift to us because it was purchased by Christ on the cross. His invitation to buy from me should not be pressed. He is doubtless using language appropriate to the commercially-minded Laodiceans” (p. 120).

Matthew Henry: “it is nothing of a valuable consideration, it is only to make room for receiving true riches. Part with sin and self-sufficiency, and come to Christ with a sense of your poverty and emptiness, that you may be filled with his hidden treasure.”

 

[IndianaRob]

Excellent point about the meaning of den.

A den primarily means the resting place or lair of a wild animal. In human spaces, it refers to a cozy, private room in a house used for relaxing, or a hidden spot associated with illicit activities. Like a gambling den or opium den. It is a secluded or hidden location where people meet for secret or illegal activities.

In Jeremiah 7:9-11, the stealing, murdering, etc. were happening outside the temple, but perhaps also in the temple.

But when Jesus cleansed the temple, robbing was happening in the place where the animal sellers and money exchangers were doing business. Like how opium use occurs in an opium den.

Some scholars say the animal sellers and money exchangers set up shop in the Court of the Gentiles—the only area designated for non-Jewish people to pray—making a quiet, reverent atmosphere impossible.

The "den" or temple was their safe-haven and yes they were robbers and thieves but that' not why they were cast out. They were cast out because the temple was a place of worship, not a market place.

 

[WPM]

You are trying to turn literal things into symbols.

You apparently want to not worry about getting a physical mark of the beast, by claiming it is just a metaphor, when the technology currently exists for the physical realty of the beast system.

Some things in Revelation are symbolic, while other things are literal.

Revelation 6:6

Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures,saying, “Two pounds of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

You are trying to turn metaphoric symbols into physical realities.

Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (or semaino) it by his angel unto his servant John.”

The order: God - Christ - Angel – (signified or symbolized) John

This Greek word semaino is found seven times in the New Testament and is interpreted as follows in the King James Version:

Signs (John 4:48)
Signify (Acts 25:27)
Signifying (John 12:33, 18:32, 21:19)
Signified (Acts 11:28; Revelation 1:1)

One's eternal destiny in the last days is never going to be determined by taking or not taking an electronic AI mark. That is a ridiculous suggestion! Salvation has always been by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Reprobation has always been through a rejection of Christ. That does not change in Revelation. It agrees with the Bible pattern from the beginning. You're inventing a new theology that contradicts the rest of Scripture.

 

[David in NJ]

It's a sin to "make my Father's house an house of merchandise."

AGREE

Notice: "house of merchandise"

 

[ProDeo]

Do you not see what verse 1 says in the Greek? measure the temple(naos not hieron)
of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

If you were correct, the Greek word used would have been hieron rather that naos. The angel was not a rookie. He chose his words carefully. If he meant the 2nd temple or even a rebuilt one in the future, he would have used hieron not naos.

Regardless when Revelation was written, Jesus had already died and rose and ascended back into heaven. Once He died and rose it would not still be a good thing to be worshiping in a temple if the temple is a brick and mortar temple. In Revelation 11:1, worshiping in the temple is a good thing, not a bad thing. Therefore, it is absurd for numerous reasons, some I already provided, that the temple meant is the 2nd temple or even a rebuilt one in the future.

In Revelation 11:2 what they are doing within is a good thing. In verse 2 what they are doing without is a bad thing. Your interpretation has verse 1 and 2 doing bad things rather than only verse 2 being when anyone is doing bad things. In light of that both verses, like I already said, are meaning post Christ's death and resurrection and ascension back into heaven, no matter when verses 1-2 are meaning.

Count the words soon in Revelations.

Soon is not 2000 years.

 

[David in NJ]

Count the words soon in Revelations.

Soon is not 2000 years.

If you read some OT prophecies of CHRIST, they use the same "soon" verbiage, even though hundreds and thousands of years passed until we reached His Coming.

The same verbiage such as "after many days" in the OT concerning Israel/Jewish people restoration at the Second Coming.

 

[IndianaRob]

If you read some OT prophecies of CHRIST, they use the same "soon" verbiage, even though hundreds and thousands of years passed until we reached His Coming.

The same verbiage such as "after many days" in the OT concerning Israel/Jewish people restoration at the Second Coming.

Can you give examples?

 

[David in NJ]

Can you give examples?

Hosea chapter 3

Then the LORD said to me, “Go show love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love to offer raisin cakes to idols.”

So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a lethech of barley.
Then I said to her, “You must live with me for many days; you must not be promiscuous or belong to another, and I will do the same for you.”

For the Israelites must live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, and without ephod or idol.
Afterward, the people of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.

 

[IndianaRob]

Hosea chapter 3

Then the LORD said to me, “Go show love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love to offer raisin cakes to idols.”

So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a lethech of barley.
Then I said to her, “You must live with me for many days; you must not be promiscuous or belong to another, and I will do the same for you.”

For the Israelites must live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, and without ephod or idol.
Afterward, the people of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.

Ok but many days doesn’t point to long or short period of time, it could be either. Soon points to something close and 2000 years in the future would not be soon.

 

[Scott Downey]

Ok but many days doesn’t point to long or short period of time, it could be either. Soon points to something close and 2000 years in the future would not be soon.

Jesus has not yet returned the second time, not in 2000 years.

And there is no 'the third time', like He comes multiple times. He must remain in heaven until....look that one up

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9 - 21st Century King James Version

Then verily, the first covenant also had ordinances of divine service and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made, the first, wherein was the candlestick and the table and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil was the tabernacle which is called the...

www.biblegateway.com

26 for then would He have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once, in the end of the world, hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment,

28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto those who look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation.

 

[Scott Downey]

Acts 3
17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began.

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

 

[IndianaRob]

Jesus has not yet returned the second time, not in 2000 years.

And there is no 'the third time', like He comes multiple times. He must remain in heaven until....look that one up

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9 - 21st Century King James Version

Then verily, the first covenant also had ordinances of divine service and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made, the first, wherein was the candlestick and the table and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil was the tabernacle which is called the...

www.biblegateway.com

26 for then would He have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once, in the end of the world, hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment,

28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto those who look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation.

The second time was the resurrection.

 

[David in NJ]

Ok but many days doesn’t point to long or short period of time, it could be either. Soon points to something close and 2000 years in the future would not be soon.

Hosea Prophecy - around 753 B.C.

It's been almost 2,000 years since Hosea ch3 prophecy fulfillment = thus "many days" became approximately 2,000 years

 

[Scott Downey]

The second time was the resurrection.

No can't be as he had not yet ascended back into Heaven to the Father.

When Christ died, He did not ascend into heaven, Christ only ascends from the earth after His resurrection.

God resurrected Christ and HE was still on the earth, until in ACTS 1 He ascended into heaven

Bible Gateway passage: John 20 - New King James Version

The Empty Tomb - Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the...

www.biblegateway.com

Mary Magdalene Sees the Risen Lord​

11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”

She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”

14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”

She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”

She turned and said to [c]Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).

17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the [d]disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.