MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[markalan]

See or detect. Let's say you refuse the mark, and walk into a store and want to buy something. How can they tell if you do not have the mark?

I pay all my bills and buy all my food etc online.
What do you do?

There is an awful lot of speculation being imposed on the text, which should be understood for what it actually says, not what people imagine it might mean.

No where does Revelation say the mark is visible.

 

[markalan]

The literalist argument leads to some rather strange assumptions ... not a single person ("no man") of the 8 billion plus people on the earth, will be able to buy or sell even a tooth pick, anywhere on the planet, unless they have been tattooed or implanted. Somehow this will also include private transactions among neighbors, online shopping, and the black market.

Before we can understand the 'mark', we have to understand where the 'mark' is placed (forehead, right hand) ... it seems to me that some people are putting the cart before the horse.

 

[ewq1938]

I pay all my bills and buy all my food etc online.

Cool, well there will come a time you won't be allowed to do that unless you have the mark. How will they tell if you have it or not?

 

[markalan]

Cool, well there will come a time you won't be allowed to do that unless you have the mark. How will they tell if you have it or not?

There are probably hundreds of ways the government can surveil people right now, let alone as technology develops more.

Underground churches in China are going through this right now.

 

[ewq1938]

There are probably hundreds of ways the government can surveil people right now, let alone as technology develops more.

Underground churches in China are going through this right now.

Doesn't address my question.

 

[markalan]

Doesn't address my question.

I can conjecture a number of different scenarios based on what is occurring under repressive regimes today ... but it would only be speculation because the Bible does not give us this information ... tattoos, chips, etc are also only conjecture.

My speculation would include using Biblical hermeneutics to consider the meaning of all the words as they are used in Revelation, especially the first mention.

I take each word separately and trace its use throughout the whole book so we can gain insight into this unique style of writing.

Those who do not "buy" from Jesus (Rev 3:18) will "buy" from the beast because their understanding ("foreheads") is marked/darkened -

"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;
but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21)

"Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God
through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart". (Ephesians 4:18)

.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Every symbol in Revelation is based on a literal object.

If we read Revelation from the beginning, chapter 1 sets the pattern for interpretation.
For example, lampstands, stars, sword, keys, etc, in the first chapter, are all literal objects with symbolic meanings.

When we begin at the beginning, we can more easily understand the language being used throughout the whole book.

Thx Mark but you'll have better luck trying to convince others that the Rev 'mark' is not literal.

 

[markalan]

Thx Mark but you'll have better luck trying to convince others that the Rev 'mark' is not literal.

All we can do is share what we see at this time in our journey ... having an understanding of various alternatives may help us to recognize prophecy as it unfolds. God bless.

 

[IndianaRob]

The word engys can mean near in time or awareness, close at hand in time or awareness, or ready with all preparations in place.

KJV: from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready
NASB: near, close, nearby, nearer, ready
Word Origin: [from a primary verb agcho "to squeeze or throttle" (akin to the base of G43 (ἀγκάλη - arms))]

1. near
{literally or figuratively, of place or time}

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
at hand, near, nigh, ready.
From a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of agkale); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time) -- from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

Rev. 1:3 “the time is at hand” could mean the time is ready to be fulfilled, but not necessarily all at once back when John was writing.

@ewq1938

Both of you gave basically the same response, so this covers both.

Strong's is a concordance. What that means is it's an index to the King James Bible — it was built so you could look up an English word and find every verse it appears in. The numbers exist to connect English words back to Greek words. That's the job it was made to do, and it does it well.

The little dictionary in the back is not the same thing as a Greek lexicon. Those entries are one line long with no examples and no evidence. They're shorthand, not analysis.

Here's the part that matters. That list — "at hand, near, nigh, ready" — is not a list of what engys means. It's a list of the English words the KJV translators used when they came to that Greek word in different verses. It's a record of translation choices.
Notice you also quoted the actual definition: "near — literally or figuratively, of place or time." One meaning. Two ways it applies: place or time. There's no third category for readiness or preparation. If engys had a "prepared, all in place" meaning of its own, it would be right there in the entry you posted. It isn't.

A real lexicon — Thayer, or BDAG — works differently. It goes through how the word is used across Greek writing, gives you the passages, and shows its work so you can check it. Neither one gives engys a preparedness meaning.

 

[IndianaRob]

As far as Revelation is concerned, some things could have soon began happening 2000 years ago. But that doesn't mean everything in the book of Revelation began being fulfilled 2000 years ago. Clearly, for example, Rev 20:10-15 did not soon start getting fulfilled 2000 years ago. Some views don't allow progression. It either has to be all past or all future to them. Rather than some of it can be past and some of it can be future still

In my view, some things in Revelation are reserved for a particular time period. Revelation 13-19 being among those things and is involving the final hours of this age. That doesn't take away from the fact that other things in Revelation may have began taking place 2000 years ago. That's the way I try and reason some of these things, right or wrong.

Because it is absurd to insist that EVERYTHING recorded in Revelation belongs to 2000 years ago when Revelation 20:10-15 alone clearly debunks that theory.

I can respect that view. That view doesn’t try to change the meaning of “soon” or “at hand”.

It isn't absurd to think everything recorded in Revelation has already happened. But notice how much of your reasoning against it rests on your current understanding of the resurrection.

One doctrine misunderstood shifts what you conclude about the next one, and that one shifts the next — until the doctrine at the end of the chain is impossible to sort out, because everything it rests on is already off.

In my view, Revelation can't be understood until the resurrection is understood properly and that exact same scenario I explained in the paragraph above applies to understanding the resurrection.

 

[Scott Downey]

I can respect that view. That view doesn’t try to change the meaning of “soon” or “at hand”.

It isn't absurd to think everything recorded in Revelation has already happened. But notice how much of your reasoning against it rests on your current understanding of the resurrection.

One doctrine misunderstood shifts what you conclude about the next one, and that one shifts the next — until the doctrine at the end of the chain is impossible to sort out, because everything it rests on is already off.

In my view, Revelation can't be understood until the resurrection is understood properly and that exact same scenario I explained in the paragraph above applies to understanding the resurrection.

Jesus remained on the earth 40 days after His resurrection and still preaching and teaching the kingdom of God. Many people saw Him. Yet still the Jewish leaders refused to acknowledge Him publicly. He was not hidden from the sight of the world until He ascended back to the Father in Heaven. Even so in John it says many though believed in Him but refused to acknowledge Him openly.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1 - New King James Version

Prologue - The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by...

www.biblegateway.com

Prologue​

1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which [a]He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many [b]infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

The Holy Spirit Promised​

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be [c]witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Jesus Ascends to Heaven​

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - New King James Version

The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first...

www.biblegateway.com

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by [a]Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have [b]fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

 

[IndianaRob]

Jesus remained on the earth 40 days after His resurrection and still preaching and teaching the kingdom of God. Many people saw Him. Yet still the Jewish leaders refused to acknowledge Him publicly. He was not hidden from the sight of the world until He ascended back to the Father in Heaven. Even so in John it says many though believed in Him but refused to acknowledge Him openly.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1 - New King James Version

Prologue - The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by...

www.biblegateway.com

Prologue​

1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which [a]He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many [b]infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

The Holy Spirit Promised​

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be [c]witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Jesus Ascends to Heaven​

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - New King James Version

The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first...

www.biblegateway.com

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by [a]Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have [b]fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

I agree with all of that Scott.

 

[CrowCross]

Context is what matters
Worship the beast AND take the mark = LOF << both required
Worship the beast OR take the mark = LOF << only one required
Worship the beast AND OR take the mark = LOF << easily understood

If you take the mark you're worshiping the beast...if you worship the beast you're taking the mark.
They both go hand in hand.

 

[WPM]

So is the Rev 13:16-17 MOTB visible for everyone to see ?
Complement yourself on answering a simple yes/no question :)

Lol. If you would read what I've written and not avoid it you would already know the answer to that. We're looking at the spiritual mark that only God sees. It is the same as the spiritual mark of God that Premils refuse to acknowledge.

If your hermeneutics were consistent then you would see both for what they are - spiritual marks of ownership.

 

[WPM]

I know why you think it is visible but the Bible does not say it is visible.

The assumption it is visible because of buying & selling seems rather fatuous in this day of internet purchases.

If he was to address your points then he would have to admit that his hermeneutics are inconsistent and contradictory.

 

[Davidpt]

See or detect. Let's say you refuse the mark, and walk into a store and want to buy something. How can they tell if you do not have the mark?

To some in here that would be a moot point. Some seem to be arguing that buying and selling does not literally involve things of that nature. That it is meaning something else, that it is meaning in a different sense. Which then begs the question. Assuming they might be right, when are any of them going to get around to showing with Scripture involving something 'worshiping the beast' related, what buying or selling really means per this context, since they insist it's not literally meaning you can't buy items in a store, for example, without having this mark?

To use passages such as Proverbs 23:23 and Revelation 3:18 to make their point seems absurd to me. Neither of those passage are 'worshiping the beast' related. Not even remotely the same context as Revelation 13. Neither of those passages involve not being able to buy or sell unless you first have the MOTB.

The technology is already present in order for this mark to be literal. Or if it isn't already present, it's getting close to being present. Some of these posters in this thread apparently don't live in the real world and have closed their eyes to what is happening in the real world these days. This is hardly the time to be naive about things. Things are starting to get deadly serious, and rapidly at that.

 

[CrowCross]

We're looking at the spiritual mark that only God sees.

Then what does the cashier see?

 

[CrowCross]

The technology is already present in order for this mark to be literal. Or if it isn't already present, it's getting close to being present. Some of these posters in this thread apparently don't live in the real world and have closed their eyes to what is happening in the real world these days. This is hardly the time to be naive about things. Things are starting to get deadly serious, and rapidly at that.

Many people...even christians...have no clue where current technology is.

Want to read something wild about WIFI? Check this out.

 

[Truth7t7]

The key piece of evidence in this account is that everybody gets the mark - no exceptions, whether by deception or by choice. How a believer recovers from that is a separate issue.

Your Claim Is 100% False

Believers aren't going to take the mark, they're sealed by God the Holy Spirit, Saved for Eternity

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Truth7t7]

Lol. If you would read what I've written and not avoid it you would already know the answer to that. We're looking at the spiritual mark that only God sees. It is the same as the spiritual mark of God that Premils refuse to acknowledge.

If your hermeneutics were consistent then you would see both for what they are - spiritual marks of ownership.

We Agree, Amen

Revelation 22:4KJV
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.