MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[markalan]

See or detect. Let's say you refuse the mark, and walk into a store and want to buy something. How can they tell if you do not have the mark?

I pay all my bills and buy all my food etc online.
What do you do?

There is an awful lot of speculation being imposed on the text, which should be understood for what it actually says, not what people imagine it might mean.

No where does Revelation say the mark is visible.

 

[markalan]

The literalist argument leads to some rather strange assumptions ... not a single person ("no man") of the 8 billion plus people on the earth, will be able to buy or sell even a tooth pick, anywhere on the planet, unless they have been tattooed or implanted. Somehow this will also include private transactions among neighbors, online shopping, and the black market.

Before we can understand the 'mark', we have to understand where the 'mark' is placed (forehead, right hand) ... it seems to me that some people are putting the cart before the horse.

 

[ewq1938]

I pay all my bills and buy all my food etc online.

Cool, well there will come a time you won't be allowed to do that unless you have the mark. How will they tell if you have it or not?

 

[markalan]

Cool, well there will come a time you won't be allowed to do that unless you have the mark. How will they tell if you have it or not?

There are probably hundreds of ways the government can surveil people right now, let alone as technology develops more.

Underground churches in China are going through this right now.

 

[ewq1938]

There are probably hundreds of ways the government can surveil people right now, let alone as technology develops more.

Underground churches in China are going through this right now.

Doesn't address my question.

 

[markalan]

Doesn't address my question.

I can conjecture a number of different scenarios based on what is occurring under repressive regimes today ... but it would only be speculation because the Bible does not give us this information ... tattoos, chips, etc are also only conjecture.

My speculation would include using Biblical hermeneutics to consider the meaning of all the words as they are used in Revelation, especially the first mention.

I take each word separately and trace its use throughout the whole book so we can gain insight into this unique style of writing.

Those who do not "buy" from Jesus (Rev 3:18) will "buy" from the beast because their understanding ("foreheads") is marked/darkened -

"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;
but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21)

"Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God
through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart". (Ephesians 4:18)

.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Every symbol in Revelation is based on a literal object.

If we read Revelation from the beginning, chapter 1 sets the pattern for interpretation.
For example, lampstands, stars, sword, keys, etc, in the first chapter, are all literal objects with symbolic meanings.

When we begin at the beginning, we can more easily understand the language being used throughout the whole book.

Thx Mark but you'll have better luck trying to convince others that the Rev 'mark' is not literal.

 

[markalan]

Thx Mark but you'll have better luck trying to convince others that the Rev 'mark' is not literal.

All we can do is share what we see at this time in our journey ... having an understanding of various alternatives may help us to recognize prophecy as it unfolds. God bless.

 

[IndianaRob]

The word engys can mean near in time or awareness, close at hand in time or awareness, or ready with all preparations in place.

KJV: from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready
NASB: near, close, nearby, nearer, ready
Word Origin: [from a primary verb agcho "to squeeze or throttle" (akin to the base of G43 (ἀγκάλη - arms))]

1. near
{literally or figuratively, of place or time}

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
at hand, near, nigh, ready.
From a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of agkale); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time) -- from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

Rev. 1:3 “the time is at hand” could mean the time is ready to be fulfilled, but not necessarily all at once back when John was writing.

@ewq1938

Both of you gave basically the same response, so this covers both.

Strong's is a concordance. What that means is it's an index to the King James Bible — it was built so you could look up an English word and find every verse it appears in. The numbers exist to connect English words back to Greek words. That's the job it was made to do, and it does it well.

The little dictionary in the back is not the same thing as a Greek lexicon. Those entries are one line long with no examples and no evidence. They're shorthand, not analysis.

Here's the part that matters. That list — "at hand, near, nigh, ready" — is not a list of what engys means. It's a list of the English words the KJV translators used when they came to that Greek word in different verses. It's a record of translation choices.
Notice you also quoted the actual definition: "near — literally or figuratively, of place or time." One meaning. Two ways it applies: place or time. There's no third category for readiness or preparation. If engys had a "prepared, all in place" meaning of its own, it would be right there in the entry you posted. It isn't.

A real lexicon — Thayer, or BDAG — works differently. It goes through how the word is used across Greek writing, gives you the passages, and shows its work so you can check it. Neither one gives engys a preparedness meaning.