The good man that turned bad out of necessity

[Riven]

The thought that Christian men have ever done better than God at anything, or in any circumstance, is unthinkable to me; even shocking. I take into account that you’re still a new Christian but I can’t in good conscience not push back against it. I don’t know why the others participating in the conversation haven’t.

The evidence for my case is overwhelming. It was Christian men and atheists from the Soviet Union that stopped Hitler and freed those people from the death camps. If those men had not been there, the camps would have continued operations.

Why are you so against giving men credit where it's due? If God had put a stop to it himself, I would give him the credit. But he let it go on for years, and we know he could have intervened at any time like he frequently did in the Old Testament.

God did eventually put a stop to it. The question is why did he allow it to go on for as long as he did. The answer is bound up in his character.

I don't know what the answer is. We could say that it's because God doesn't intervene in human affairs. But the bible disproves that theory.

There are many examples in scripture of God using men like him to punish the wicked.

Sure. But he didn't send anyone to stop Stalin from murdering millions of his own people. It makes God look capricious in nature.

 

[Matthias]

In my case there were serious repercussions for going after corrupt officers. It was the end of my career

In my case the only reason the repercussions didn’t end my career is because I had something in the personal handwriting of my incompetent manager, ordering me to do something illegal. I refused. When I was terminated the next day, I made it known that I still had the document in my possession. The decision to terminate was quickly rescinded, a transfer to another program was offered, and my career lasted another twenty years.

 

[Matthias]

The evidence for my case is overwhelming.

If that were true then everyone participating in our conversation would have to agree with you, that man was better than God. That’s not a Christian argument.

It was Christian men and atheists from the Soviet Union that stopped Hitler and freed those people from the death camps. If those men had not been there, the camps would have continued operations.

Yes.

Why are you so against giving men credit where it's due?

I’m not. What I’m against is your argument that they did better than God.

If God had put a stop to it himself, I would give him the credit. But he let it go on for years, and we know he could have intervened at any time like he frequently did in the Old Testament.

You give the credit to men and withhold the credit from God. Who else does that?

I don't know what the answer is.

I‘ve told you what the answer is -> God’s character. See Exodus 34:6-7.

We could say that it's because God doesn't intervene in human affairs. But the bible disproves that theory.

That’s right.

Sure. But he didn't send anyone to stop Stalin from murdering millions of his own people. It makes God look capricious in nature.

God isn’t capricious in nature. (See above.) Why does he look in your eyes a way that he isn’t?

 

[Riven]

In my case the only reason the repercussions didn’t end my career is because I had something in the personal handwriting of my incompetent manager, ordering me to do something illegal. I refused. When I was terminated the next day, I made it known that I still had the document in my possession. The decision to terminate was quickly rescinded, a transfer to another program was offered, and my career lasted another twenty years.

Most impressive. Many people would have neglected to mention the document in order to avoid friction. I'm curious, what happened to the manager?

 

[Matthias]

Most impressive. Many people would have neglected to mention the document in order to avoid friction.

There was no friction to avoid. I was terminated. That decision was immediately reversed when I mentioned that I still had the document.

I'm curious, what happened to the manager?

He had a nervous breakdown; his dark hair turned completely white overnight, and he took early retirement.

 

[Riven]

If that were true then everyone participating in our conversation would have to agree with you, that man was better than God. That’s not a Christian argument.

I don't make Christian arguments. If I did, I would sound just like everyone else on this forum. I make my own arguments. I'm not afraid to question God, or even make accusations. The creator of the cosmos is not a fragile flower.

I’m not. What I’m against is your argument that they did better than God.

Why?

You give the credit to men and withhold the credit from God. Who else does that?

Those men deserve credit for what they did. Many of them never saw home again.

God isn’t capricious in nature. (See above.) Why does he look in your eyes a way that he isn’t?

Because God's actions and what Christians say about him are in direct conflict. If he's all loving, why did he allow a holocaust to go on for years without intervening?

He was willing to kill Egypt's first born because pharoh refused to capitulate, but he allows Hitler to come to power and conduct the holocaust? It doesn't add up.

 

[Matthias]

I don't make Christian arguments.

Christians do.

Why?

Man isn’t better than God. God is better than man.

Because God's actions and what Christians say about him are in direct conflict.

@marks touched on this in post #210 and post #213.

If he's all loving …

He’s not just all loving.

… why did he allow a holocaust go on for years without intervening?

In rejecting Jesus, the Jews also rejected God. They have a track record of rejecting God; and God has a track record of punishing them, even severely, but always with a view of having them repent and return to him.

He was willing to kill Egypt's first born because pharoh refused to capitulate…

Pharaoh hardened his heart. God hardened his heart even more. That was the last of the plagues, and it served the purpose of glorifying God.

… but he allows Hitler to come to power and conduct the holocaust? It doesn't add up.

He didn’t just allow it. He ordained it. What you’re seeing is the kindness and severity of the Holy God.

 

[Matthias]

I’m heading off to bed @Riven. I’ll leave you tonight with this: God’s thoughts and ways aren’t mankind’s thoughts and ways. Have a reverential fear of God.

 

[Riven]

He didn’t just allow it. He ordained it. What you’re seeing is the kindness and severity of the Holy God.

You're insane, Matthias. Madness has overtaken you. Do you even realize what you're saying? The systemic murder of innocent people is a kindness to you?

 

[Debp]

If God had put a stop to it himself, I would give him the credit. But he let it go on for years, and we know he could have intervened at any time like he frequently did in the Old Testament.

Hi guys. I just stopped by to see what's going on now.

About your statement Riven...sometimes God uses people to stop the wicked. God works through them to do that.

 

[Matthias]

You're insane, Matthias. Madness has overtaken you.

* Acts 26:24-25 *

 

[Matthias]

The systemic murder of innocent people is a kindness to you?

Let’s go back to Romans 13:1-4. When was it written? By whom was it written? To whom was it written? Who is the head of the government? God uses that person to maintain order.