Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[William Barton]

Yes, that's what the bible says.

I see it as a type of interface.

Microchips are used on pets for identification. They work on people too.

 

[IndianaRob]

Is this helpful ?
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View attachment 88095

Paul was given the job of dispensing the gospel. That's all three of those verses are saying.

1 Cor 9:17 — "committed unto me."
Eph 3:2 — "given me to you-ward."
Col 1:25 — "given to me for you."

Given to him. Personally. He was handed the gospel and told to deal it out. Col 1:25 says he was "made a minister" according to it, "to fulfil the word of God." Eph 3:8 says his was so "that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ." That's a job description, not an age of history. You can't commit a period of time to one man for the benefit of the Colossians.

The fourth one, Eph 1:10, isn't about Paul at all. It says the dispensation of the fulness of times is "that he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth." Gather together in one. That's God bringing everything under Christ, not dividing history into parts.

So there's nothing here about different dispensations of grace. Three verses about Paul being given the job of dispensing the gospel, and one about all things being gathered into one in Christ.

 

[PeterAndroz]

IMO:
"Dispensation" stems from Latin dispensary = "to administer," i.e. "to manage."

After the fall of man there were six nations ordained to administer/manage order in the Middle East:
Egypt,
Assyria,
Babylon,
Persia,
Greece,
Rome. That is six administrations.

The seventh administration is the Millennial kingdom of Jesus.

Is the following helpful ?
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[PeterAndroz]

Microchips are used on pets for identification. They work on people too.

Oh yes, and people even have them now but not in their foreheads though this fella might consider it
Come MOTB time how would you know though whether or not he had the MOTB ?

 

[CrowCross]

I know dispensationalism teach but I dont see that anywhere in the bible.

You don't? Perhaps you're still sacrificing bulls, sheep and turtle doves.

 

[CrowCross]

Microchips are used on pets for identification. They work on people too.

I didn't say they didn't.

I simply said I think the mark is some sort of interface.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I didn't say they didn't.

I simply said I think the mark is some sort of interface.

An RFID chip lump/scar on the hand with a tattoo type mark would be easily seen by others yet what about the forehead ?
Sure, RFID's may be come small enough to place them there but would still need some type of visual indicator for others to see.
Thoughts ?

 

[Earburner]

I agree with your view CC and as yet NO-ONE has been able to list Scripture that teaches otherwise

Please see my post #978

 

[PeterAndroz]

Please see my post #978

Hey EB, how do I see post 978 ?

 

[ewq1938]

You have a severe problem!!
Not only do you believe in church-ianity's fabricated lie of a SECRET Rapture,

Wrong, there is no secret rapture.

you have also fallen short in understanding WHEN the figurative 1000 years BEGAN, and what God's purpose is for it.
2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise [of salvation], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should [wilfully] perish, but [desires] that all should come to repentance.

The thousand years is literal not symbolic. The Greek word used is a specific number that cannot be one day less or more.

It is you that promotes church-ianity which are beliefs the bible does not teach.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Wrong, there is no secret rapture.





The thousand years is literal not symbolic. The Greek word used is a specific number that cannot be one day less or more.

It is you that promotes church-ianity which are beliefs the bible does not teach.

>>>>>>Wrong, there is no secret rapture.


Which verses also teach the same as 1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In LATIN

 

[CTK]

@CrowCross, @covenantee, @JimKnox , @Spiritual Israelite, @Earburner, @ewq1938,@PeterAndroz,@William Barton,@IndianaRob,@Truth7t7,@PinSeeker,@jeffweeder,@grafted branch,@stevesonthebay,@claninja


Here are four PDFs for your consideration. Each was extracted from the larger Daniel commentary.

These four narratives are not intended to present all—or even most—of the interpretations, arguments, and supporting material developed throughout the twelve chapters of Daniel. Rather, they have been selected because they contain enough of the relevant framework and supporting discussion to allow you folks to fairly consider the new interpretations being discussed within this particular topic.

They should therefore be viewed as focused excerpts from a much larger study, not as a complete presentation of the Daniel commentary itself.

I hope they may be of some value to each of you and please feel free to respond with any questions. Further, should you wish to receive a free copy of the Daniel commentary, please contact me in a private message.

 

[IndianaRob]

You don't? Perhaps you're still sacrificing bulls, sheep and turtle doves.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The grace before, during and after the law is the same grace we have today.

 

[Earburner]

Wrong, there is no secret rapture.

The thousand years is literal not symbolic. The Greek word used is a specific number that cannot be one day less or more.

It is you that promotes church-ianity which are beliefs the bible does not teach.

Again, you "cherry pick" people's posts.
By taking sentences out context of what is posted, it's easy for you to take "pot shots" at only what you choose to respond to, thus leaving the audience in the dark about the whole of what was written in support of the person's post that you are replying to.

"Wrong, there is no secret rapture."
>Will everyone literally see Jesus from heaven during your rapture of the church?

"The thousand years is literal not symbolic. The Greek word used is a specific number that cannot be one day less or more."
> The context of 2 Peter 3:8 doesn't at all reveal that a thousand years "is a specific number". What is your word selection for that Greek word and the meaning of that Greek word?
Was the following your selection?
Strong's Number - G5507
Greek: χίλιοι
Transliteration: chilioi
Pronunciation: khil'-ee-oy
Definition: Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
KJV Usage: thousand (11x).
Occurs: 11
In verses: 10

It is you that promotes church-ianity which are beliefs the bible does not teach.
> It is not I who pushes the prophetic 70th week (7 years) of Daniel out of context and into the far future, and then fabricate a false narrative to explain it.

 

[Earburner]

Hey EB, how do I see post 978 ?

My post 978 is on page 49.

 

[CrowCross]

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The grace before, during and after the law is the same grace we have today.

That's not what I asked....Perhaps you're still sacrificing bulls, sheep and turtle doves.

In this DISPENSATION that is no longer done.

 

[IndianaRob]

That's not what I asked....Perhaps you're still sacrificing bulls, sheep and turtle doves.

In this DISPENSATION that is no longer done.

Sacrificing animals was never a dispensation. What kind of dispensation do you think animal sacrifices was? A dispensation of what?

David was saved by grace through faith just like we are. Do you agree with that part at least?

 

[CrowCross]

Sacrificing animals was never a dispensation. What kind of dispensation do you think animal sacrifices was? A dispensation of what?

David was saved by grace through faith just like we are. Do you agree with that part at least?

Yes, sacrificing animals are not a dispensation as that's not the definition....(BTW, you never did present your definition of dispensationalism).

Now, the sacrificing of animals happened under the dispensation of "law" during that time of administration.
We are now in the dispensation of grace...do you still sacrifice bulls, sheep and turtledoves?

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes, sacrificing animals are not a dispensation as that's not the definition....(BTW, you never did present your definition of dispensationalism).

Now, the sacrificing of animals happened under the dispensation of "law" during that time of administration.
We are now in the dispensation of grace...do you still sacrifice bulls, sheep and turtledoves?

The Jews were under grace too. The law only applies to those who don’t put their faith in Christ. David was under grace, all of the Old Testament believers were under grace.

That’s why I posted the verse I posted. It says the covenant of grace was before the law and the law didn’t override the covenant of grace, it didn’t disannul grace.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

 

[radikal21]

The ECFs and apologists reveal the identity of the restrainer. History confirms it.

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)
ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?
APOLOGY, CHAP. XXXII.
There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.

John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)
Homilies on Second Thessalonians
HOMILY IV. 2 THESSALONIANS ii. 6--9.
"Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way...

Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430)
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19
For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.

While not commenting directly upon the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage, Cyril of Jerusalem affirmed the historical consensus that antichrist would not appear until the Roman empire had disappeared:

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386)
Catechetical Lectures
LECTURE XV.
ON THE CLAUSE, AND SHALL COME IN GLORY TO JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD; OF WHOSE KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END, DANIEL vii. 9--14.
12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled...

The early church believed that the pagan imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer (i.e. the "letter" or "withholder") which would eventually be "taken out of the way", and which, until then, was forestalling the emergence of the antichrist apostate papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as "that man of sin", "the son of perdition", and "that Wicked".

In the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for Paul not to explicitly identify Him. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

The Thessalonians did know whereof Paul was speaking. 2 Thessalonians 2:5,6.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

And the Reformers recognized and understood both Paul and history.

Ye but the passage certainly sounds like a specific *man* being restrained right now (at the time he was writing). And from a preteristic understanding of the term *last days* it would have to have been fulfilled before the destruction of the temple.