MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[Anchorite]

You assume this represents the mark of the beast? Can you prove this assumption from the Bible?

I have been saying that the mark of the beast could be something like an RFID tattoo, bar code, or computer chip implant.

The technology now exists for putting a biometric mark on people, with surveillance by AI data centers.

People are experimenting with chips in hands to engage in financial transactions.

In Switzerland people are already using an injectable payment chip implant in their hand to purchase items in stores.

Secure payment chip implants (like those from Walletmor) are often priced around $300.

RFID chip implants designed for contactless payments and personal identification are available in Switzerland, primarily through European providers that offer specialized, bio-compatible chips. The chip does not need a battery or external power source. The first time humans received microchip implants was in 1998.

Walletmor, the first company to sell payment chips, recommends using their specialized partners or a doctor for the procedure. Some individuals in Switzerland use professional tattoo shop body piercers to inject the chip implant.

Walletmor's payment implant, which weighs less than a gram and is little bigger than a grain of rice, is comprised of a tiny microchip and an antenna encased in a biopolymer — a naturally sourced material, similar to plastic.

 

[IndianaRob]

Just so we are on the same page here. When I said in that other post I agree with this logic, it doesn't mean I was agreeing with you that the 7th trumpet has already sounded. The logic I'm agreeing with is this. Once the 7th trumpet sounds, regardless when it sounds, be it in the past or be it in the future, would then equal at that point in time exactly what you said here--That means everything prior to that has already happened.

Which then agrees with my view even if the 7th trumpet is still future. It means Revelation 13 is entirely in the past when the 7th trumpet sounds. IOW, when the 7th trumpet sounds we are then in the time of God's wrath upon the beast and fp and those worshiping the beast and having it's mark. A literal mark? Maybe, maybe not. I haven't fully made up my mind either way. Though I do tend to lean more towards literal, the fact there is now technology such as AI, and it keeps evolving. We haven't even seen anything yet, compared to down the road, though what we have seen is already mind boggling, no doubt

I’ve been replying with my phone and I can’t half see on it so I’m going to pause discussion until I get to my laptop. The conversations with you have been good for me and I appreciate you hanging in with me even though our views are different.

 

[Davidpt]

Two things one is the resurrection and the other is the great hail and lightning’s and such.

Take just a minute and read Psalm 18. Here is part of it just to show the context and timing of the events described there. Yes that’s David speaking but he’s speaking prophetically of Christ. Read what God did when Christ was killed.

Psa 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.

Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

Psa 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.

Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

Psa 18:14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.

Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

First of all, I agree that Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:20-22 establish Christ's present authority and reign. That's not what I'm disputing. I'm asking whether Revelation 11:15-19 has already occurred. Those verses don't merely say that Christ possesses authority. They place the seventh trumpet alongside the nations becoming angry, God's wrath, the judgment of the dead, the rewarding of the saints, the destruction of those destroying the earth, and then the lightning, thunder, earthquake and great hail. Which of those events do you believe occurred at Christ's death/resurrection, and where does Scripture say they did?

Psalm 18 doesn't establish that the hail in Revelation 11 occurred at Christ's crucifixion. Psalm 18 is David's song of deliverance, and its storm imagery describes God's intervention against David's enemies. Matthew records an earthquake at Christ's death, but it does not record the great hail of Psalm 18. So you're using the existence of similar imagery in Psalm 18 to establish a fulfillment that the crucifixion accounts themselves don't state. That's an assumption, not a demonstration.

Moreover, Psalm 18's combination of thunder, lightning, earthquake and hail has an obvious parallel in Revelation 11:19 itself, immediately following the seventh trumpet, and another intensified parallel in Revelation 16:18-21 at the seventh bowl. So why should Psalm 18 be used to move that imagery backward to the crucifixion rather than allowing Revelation to interpret Revelation?

 

[ewq1938]

We see that differently. I see the MOB as ongoing but you see it as future.

Rev 13 says the FP has ppl make an image of the beasts and then he makes it move and speak and after that a mark is given. None of those things have happened yet. Certainly a forerunner/shadow of the mark exists but not the actual mark.

 

[ewq1938]

Which then agrees with my view even if the 7th trumpet is still future.

Not to mention that all the saved dead since Adam will be alive again physically nad on the Earth at the 7th trump. I don't see any news reports about that ever happening. Preterism ignores important things that clearly have not happened yet.

I call all of this antichrist denial. Most major theological positions deny the AC in some way. Some say he came long ago, some symbolize him into something else, some deny the AC is even real at all, some think they will be raptured away so they don't have to deal with him....all likely promoted by the Devil so people will be deceived when the AC actually comes.

 

[Scott Downey]

First of all, I agree that Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:20-22 establish Christ's present authority and reign. That's not what I'm disputing. I'm asking whether Revelation 11:15-19 has already occurred. Those verses don't merely say that Christ possesses authority. They place the seventh trumpet alongside the nations becoming angry, God's wrath, the judgment of the dead, the rewarding of the saints, the destruction of those destroying the earth, and then the lightning, thunder, earthquake and great hail. Which of those events do you believe occurred at Christ's death/resurrection, and where does Scripture say they did?

Psalm 18 doesn't establish that the hail in Revelation 11 occurred at Christ's crucifixion. Psalm 18 is David's song of deliverance, and its storm imagery describes God's intervention against David's enemies. Matthew records an earthquake at Christ's death, but it does not record the great hail of Psalm 18. So you're using the existence of similar imagery in Psalm 18 to establish a fulfillment that the crucifixion accounts themselves don't state. That's an assumption, not a demonstration.

Moreover, Psalm 18's combination of thunder, lightning, earthquake and hail has an obvious parallel in Revelation 11:19 itself, immediately following the seventh trumpet, and another intensified parallel in Revelation 16:18-21 at the seventh bowl. So why should Psalm 18 be used to move that imagery backward to the crucifixion rather than allowing Revelation to interpret Revelation?

Daniel 7 is relevant here, v25 through v27 are still future too.​

Demons and Satan (as well as the children of the devil) are still in rebellion against God and the resurrected Christ..

27 Then the kingdom and dominion,​

And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,​

Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.​

His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,​

And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’​

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 7 - New King James Version

Vision of the Four Beasts - In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts. Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring...

www.biblegateway.com

Vision of the Ancient of Days​

9 “I watched till thrones were [d]put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The [e]court was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel’s Visions Interpreted​

15 “I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit [g]within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four [h]kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke [i]pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

 

[David in NJ]

When did the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord?

Only at the Second Coming of CHRIST.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Why does Revelation tell us it is those who worship the beast and his image that receive the mark 'in' not on their right hand and forehead? How can a mark 'in' the right hand and forehead be visibly seen?

A tattoo ON a person is visible because the ink is IN their skin.
Some Bibles say ON others say IN

Revelation 13:16 - The Mark of the Beast

And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

biblehub.com

The original Greek word is EPI

 

[IndianaRob]

First of all, I agree that Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:20-22 establish Christ's present authority and reign. That's not what I'm disputing. I'm asking whether Revelation 11:15-19 has already occurred. Those verses don't merely say that Christ possesses authority. They place the seventh trumpet alongside the nations becoming angry, God's wrath, the judgment of the dead, the rewarding of the saints, the destruction of those destroying the earth, and then the lightning, thunder, earthquake and great hail. Which of those events do you believe occurred at Christ's death/resurrection, and where does Scripture say they did?

Psalm 18 doesn't establish that the hail in Revelation 11 occurred at Christ's crucifixion. Psalm 18 is David's song of deliverance, and its storm imagery describes God's intervention against David's enemies. Matthew records an earthquake at Christ's death, but it does not record the great hail of Psalm 18. So you're using the existence of similar imagery in Psalm 18 to establish a fulfillment that the crucifixion accounts themselves don't state. That's an assumption, not a demonstration.

Moreover, Psalm 18's combination of thunder, lightning, earthquake and hail has an obvious parallel in Revelation 11:19 itself, immediately following the seventh trumpet, and another intensified parallel in Revelation 16:18-21 at the seventh bowl. So why should Psalm 18 be used to move that imagery backward to the crucifixion rather than allowing Revelation to interpret Revelation?

Yes Revelation 11:15-19 has happened and the resurrection is still happening today but, as with most everything else in the Bible, people have been taught a resurrection that is not biblical which is a thread topic on its own.

To be clear, I'm not arguing Psalm 18 is a one-to-one account of Revelation 11. That's not the claim.

My point about Psalm 18 is the language is extreme — the earth shaking, darkness under his feet, the heavens bowing, hailstones and coals of fire. Nothing in the record of David's life matches that. Whatever God did for David, the Old Testament never reports the sky darkening or the earth quaking over it.

But the Gospels do report exactly that, and they report it at the cross. Darkness over the whole land for three hours. The earth quaking. Rocks rent. The veil torn from top to bottom. Graves opened.

So I'd ask you: where in Scripture do we actually find the events Psalm 18 describes? Not in David's record. We find them at Calvary.

 

[IndianaRob]

Rev 13 says the FP has ppl make an image of the beasts and then he makes it move and speak and after that a mark is given. None of those things have happened yet. Certainly a forerunner/shadow of the mark exists but not the actual mark.

That's a valid point, and I don't pretend to have a full answer for it. What I'd say is this: there are things Revelation places after the image of the beast that we can verify from Scripture as already accomplished. The resurrection. The kingdoms of this world now under the rule of Christ. The heavenly Jerusalem being present now.

 

[IndianaRob]

Only at the Second Coming of CHRIST.

I agree. The second coming was when Christ came in all power and glory to rule and reign with a rod of iron, meaning Daniels iron kingdom, the spiritual kingdom Jesus is using on the world right now.

The verses I gave prove the kingdoms of this world belong to Jesus, we just have to accept that rather than the traditions of man.

 

[rwb]

I have been saying that the mark of the beast could be something like an RFID tattoo, bar code, or computer chip implant.

The technology now exists for putting a biometric mark on people, with surveillance by AI data centers.

People are experimenting with chips in hands to engage in financial transactions.

In Switzerland people are already using an injectable payment chip implant in their hand to purchase items in stores.

Secure payment chip implants (like those from Walletmor) are often priced around $300.

RFID chip implants designed for contactless payments and personal identification are available in Switzerland, primarily through European providers that offer specialized, bio-compatible chips. The chip does not need a battery or external power source. The first time humans received microchip implants was in 1998.

Walletmor, the first company to sell payment chips, recommends using their specialized partners or a doctor for the procedure. Some individuals in Switzerland use professional tattoo shop body piercers to inject the chip implant.

Walletmor's payment implant, which weighs less than a gram and is little bigger than a grain of rice, is comprised of a tiny microchip and an antenna encased in a biopolymer — a naturally sourced material, similar to plastic.

I know this technology exists, however only those who are deceived by the beast receive his mark. Those who are sealed by the Spirit of Christ have victory over the beast and his image and never receive his mark or the number of his name. That means the ability to buy and sell (whatever it implies) is only for those who worship the beast and/or his image.

"All" in the passage below doesn't mean without exception, but all without distinction, both Jew and Gentile alike (whoever remains in unbelief) who worship the beast and his image receive his mark, and only the "all" that have his mark, or the name of the beast (devil/Satan), or the number of his name (666) are kept from buying and selling.

Revelation 13:16-18 (KJV) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

To rightly understand the mark, his name and number of the beast that all those who worship him receive, we have to know what the worshippers of the beast shall no longer be able to buy or sell??? It is not something those born again must fear.

 

[rwb]

A tattoo ON a person is visible because the ink is IN their skin.
Some Bibles say ON others say IN

Revelation 13:16 - The Mark of the Beast

And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

biblehub.com

View attachment 88150

The original Greek word is EPI
View attachment 88149

But how do you prove the mark of the beast is a physical tattoo upon/on/in the skin of mankind? Every man who has been born again has been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Christ. We cannot physically see the Spirit within us, how do you biblically prove the mark that all who worship the beast receive shall be physically visible upon/in man's flesh?

 

[rwb]

Yes Revelation 11:15-19 has happened and the resurrection is still happening today but, as with most everything else in the Bible, people have been taught a resurrection that is not biblical which is a thread topic on its own.

To be clear, I'm not arguing Psalm 18 is a one-to-one account of Revelation 11. That's not the claim.

My point about Psalm 18 is the language is extreme — the earth shaking, darkness under his feet, the heavens bowing, hailstones and coals of fire. Nothing in the record of David's life matches that. Whatever God did for David, the Old Testament never reports the sky darkening or the earth quaking over it.

But the Gospels do report exactly that, and they report it at the cross. Darkness over the whole land for three hours. The earth quaking. Rocks rent. The veil torn from top to bottom. Graves opened.

So I'd ask you: where in Scripture do we actually find the events Psalm 18 describes? Not in David's record. We find them at Calvary.

We understand Christ received a Kingdom that shall never pass away when He ascended to heaven. What is hard to understand and explain is how the Kingdom of God from that moment in time is spiritual and not the physical Kingdom that shall be when Christ comes again when the seventh trumpet sounds.

For the saints of Old the cross and resurrection have been spiritually fulfilled when Christ ascended to heaven after His resurrection. We know this because before ascending to heaven, Christ first set the captives of death free, taking them as spiritual body with Him to heaven where believers shall all be after physical death living souls. That's why in his visions John sees living souls without human form in heaven. The Kingdom of God now, in this age of time is not physical, but a spiritual Kingdom that shall never be physically upon this earth but shall come down from heaven after this first earth has passed away.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[rwb]

I agree. The second coming was when Christ came in all power and glory to rule and reign with a rod of iron, meaning Daniels iron kingdom, the spiritual kingdom Jesus is using on the world right now.

The verses I gave prove the kingdoms of this world belong to Jesus, we just have to accept that rather than the traditions of man.

Exactly! But as I've already said, this is difficult for some and hard to explain to them how the Kingdom NOW is spiritual, not physical.

 

[rwb]

Only at the Second Coming of CHRIST.

What about the Kingdom given Christ when He ascended to heaven? It was at that moment that Christ received dominion, and glory over all people, and nations which shall not pass away, and shall never be destroyed.

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[rwb]

First of all, I agree that Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:20-22 establish Christ's present authority and reign. That's not what I'm disputing. I'm asking whether Revelation 11:15-19 has already occurred. Those verses don't merely say that Christ possesses authority. They place the seventh trumpet alongside the nations becoming angry, God's wrath, the judgment of the dead, the rewarding of the saints, the destruction of those destroying the earth, and then the lightning, thunder, earthquake and great hail. Which of those events do you believe occurred at Christ's death/resurrection, and where does Scripture say they did?

Psalm 18 doesn't establish that the hail in Revelation 11 occurred at Christ's crucifixion. Psalm 18 is David's song of deliverance, and its storm imagery describes God's intervention against David's enemies. Matthew records an earthquake at Christ's death, but it does not record the great hail of Psalm 18. So you're using the existence of similar imagery in Psalm 18 to establish a fulfillment that the crucifixion accounts themselves don't state. That's an assumption, not a demonstration.

Moreover, Psalm 18's combination of thunder, lightning, earthquake and hail has an obvious parallel in Revelation 11:19 itself, immediately following the seventh trumpet, and another intensified parallel in Revelation 16:18-21 at the seventh bowl. So why should Psalm 18 be used to move that imagery backward to the crucifixion rather than allowing Revelation to interpret Revelation?

Already spiritually fulfilled. Shall be physically fulfilled when the last/seventh trumpet sounds that time given this earth shall be no longer.

 

[IndianaRob]

We understand Christ received a Kingdom that shall never pass away when He ascended to heaven. What is hard to understand and explain is how the Kingdom of God from that moment in time is spiritual and not the physical Kingdom that shall be when Christ comes again when the seventh trumpet sounds.

For the saints of Old the cross and resurrection have been spiritually fulfilled when Christ ascended to heaven after His resurrection. We know this because before ascending to heaven, Christ first set the captives of death free, taking them as spiritual body with Him to heaven where believers shall all be after physical death living souls. That's why in his visions John sees living souls without human form in heaven. The Kingdom of God now, in this age of time is not physical, but a spiritual Kingdom that shall never be physically upon this earth but shall come down from heaven after this first earth has passed away.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I think the version of the resurrection taught and believed by most of Christianity is causing people to think Revelation 11 is future.

 

[IndianaRob]

Exactly! But as I've already said, this is difficult for some and hard to explain to them how the Kingdom NOW is spiritual, not physical.

I see no biblical evidence for a physical kingdom.

 

[rwb]

I think the version of the resurrection taught and believed by most of Christianity is causing people to think Revelation 11 is future.

I believe Rev 11 begins with measuring the New Covenant temple/church that Christ came with. From there chapter 11 depicts all that has been and shall continue to come to pass from the beginning of the New Covenant age until the last/seventh trumpet sounds. IOW this chapter covers the whole church age as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed throughout the whole earth.