MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[rwb]

I see no biblical evidence for a physical kingdom.

I agree. But so many Christians cannot believe what they cannot physically see!

 

[IndianaRob]

I believe Rev 11 begins with measuring the New Covenant temple/church that Christ came with. From there chapter 11 depicts all that has been and shall continue to come to pass from the beginning of the New Covenant age until the last/seventh trumpet sounds. IOW this chapter covers the whole church age as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed throughout the whole earth.

Revelation 11:2 kind of squashes that idea doesn’t it? How do Gentiles tread under foot Heavenly Jerusalem? It has to be a literal physical earthly temple.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[WPM]

I have been saying that the mark of the beast could be something like an RFID tattoo, bar code, or computer chip implant.

The technology now exists for putting a biometric mark on people, with surveillance by AI data centers.

People are experimenting with chips in hands to engage in financial transactions.

In Switzerland people are already using an injectable payment chip implant in their hand to purchase items in stores.

Secure payment chip implants (like those from Walletmor) are often priced around $300.

RFID chip implants designed for contactless payments and personal identification are available in Switzerland, primarily through European providers that offer specialized, bio-compatible chips. The chip does not need a battery or external power source. The first time humans received microchip implants was in 1998.

Walletmor, the first company to sell payment chips, recommends using their specialized partners or a doctor for the procedure. Some individuals in Switzerland use professional tattoo shop body piercers to inject the chip implant.

Walletmor's payment implant, which weighs less than a gram and is little bigger than a grain of rice, is comprised of a tiny microchip and an antenna encased in a biopolymer — a naturally sourced material, similar to plastic.

1. You are coming up with all this hyper-literal speculation because you do not seem to employ corroboration in your writings. You're trying to make Revelation say something that the rest of the Bible does not say. In fact, you're trying to say something the rest of the Bible forbids. You need to interpret Scripture with Scripture. With your form of ad-hoc hermeneutics you can literally make the Bible say whatever you want it to say – and you do.
2. You also do not understand the whole genre of Revelation. You're trying to literalize a highly symbolic book.
3. Finally, and extremely importantly, man's eternal destiny is not determined by taking or not taking a "RFID tattoo, bar code, or computer chip implant." It comes from accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ. You are therefore inventing a false gospel here.

 

[WPM]

You assume this represents the mark of the beast? Can you prove this assumption from the Bible?

No he cannot.

 

[David in NJ]

What about the Kingdom given Christ when He ascended to heaven? It was at that moment that Christ received dominion, and glory over all people, and nations which shall not pass away, and shall never be destroyed.

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Good Morning

Great question

i am recovering from yesterdays work and will respond later

 

[rwb]

Revelation 11:2 kind of squashes that idea doesn’t it? How do Gentiles tread under foot Heavenly Jerusalem? It has to be a literal physical earthly temple.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

In a spiritual sense unbelievers have tread down the holy temple (spiritual Jerusalem) from the beginning of the church that Christ spiritually established. That's why there are so many warnings throughout the New Testament for believers to watch over and guard the church.

The time given should not be viewed consecutively, but part of the whole time symbolized a thousand years.

 

[Marty fox]

No! I refuse to impose a false non-corroborative extra-biblical interpretation upon Revelation that does not correspond with the rest of the Bible. Most popular end-time false teaching comes from the Futurist's interpretations of Revelation. They basically make the book say whatever they wish. The major error they make is that they interpret the rest of Scripture in light of their mistaken opinion of Revelation, instead of interpreting Revelation in the light of the clear, explicit, and repeated teaching of the rest of Scripture.

Man's eternal destiny in the last days (like any other day) is determined by their response to Jesus Christ and His precious Word.

John the Baptist proclaimed in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

1 John 5:12: “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

2 John 1:9: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”

That is the reprobation that comes with rejecting the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Interpret Scripture with Scripture. Do not invent your own theology through your opinions of the book of Revelation.

Yes amen fantastic post, there is no verse in the bible that say, "unless you take the mark of the beast".

 

[IndianaRob]

In a spiritual sense unbelievers have tread down the holy temple (spiritual Jerusalem) from the beginning of the church that Christ spiritually established. That's why there are so many warnings throughout the New Testament for believers to watch over and guard the church.

The time given should not be viewed consecutively, but part of the whole time symbolized a thousand years.

Heavenly Jerusalem isn’t something that a non-believer even knows exists, it’s a spiritual state a believer lives in.

 

[Davidpt]

Do we have at least 2 full Preterists posting in this thread? Both have indicated the 2nd coming has already occurred. Post #491 and the other person that liked that post, thus agreed with that post. In regard to Christ's 2nd coming, post #491 @IndianaRob used the the word 'was' not 'is'. Everyone knows what 'was' means per a context like that. It means it already occurred, not will occur in the future still.

 

[rwb]

Heavenly Jerusalem isn’t something that a non-believer even knows exists, it’s a spiritual state a believer lives in.

Yes, the heavenly Jerusalem is symbolically represented as the church on this earth. When unbelievers are allowed to be in union or members among the body of Christ, spiritually speaking, the heavenly Jerusalem, they have and are spiritually treading down the holy city as they bring false doctrine, lies, and abominations into the church that causes the light of Christ to be extinguished.

 

[IndianaRob]

Do we have at least 2 full Preterists posting in this thread? Both have indicated the 2nd coming has already occurred. Post #491 and the other person that liked that post, thus agreed with that post. In regard to Christ's 2nd coming, post #491 @IndianaRob used the the word 'was' not 'is'. Everyone knows what 'was' means per a context like that. It means it already occurred, not will occur in the future still.

I’m not a preterist, I don’t identify with hardly anything a preterist believes. I read the Bible and whatever it says that’s what I believe.

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes, the heavenly Jerusalem is symbolically represented as the church on this earth. When unbelievers are allowed to be in union or members among the body of Christ, spiritually speaking, the heavenly Jerusalem, they have and are spiritually treading down the holy city as they bring false doctrine, lies, and abominations into the church that causes the light of Christ to be extinguished.

That’s not how a see Heavenly Jerusalem. Most of the church hasn’t entered Heavenly Jerusalem yet, in fact most of the church is waiting for a cube to come down from heaven.

 

[rwb]

Do we have at least 2 full Preterists posting in this thread? Both have indicated the 2nd coming has already occurred. Post #491 and the other person that liked that post, thus agreed with that post. In regard to Christ's 2nd coming, post #491 @IndianaRob used the the word 'was' not 'is'. Everyone knows what 'was' means per a context like that. It means it already occurred, not will occur in the future still.

You know I fight against Preterism, therefore I am not Preterit in doctrine. I agreed with IndianRobs post because he makes a distinction between spiritual and physical fulfillment. While I agree Christ has not yet come the second time, Scripture shows me that when Christ came to earth a man, He established the spiritual Kingdom of God that is not and shall never be physically upon this earth. The problem you seem to have is understanding spiritual fulfillment because unless you can physically see you will not believe.

 

[Davidpt]

Not to mention that all the saved dead since Adam will be alive again physically nad on the Earth at the 7th trump. I don't see any news reports about that ever happening. Preterism ignores important things that clearly have not happened yet.

I call all of this antichrist denial. Most major theological positions deny the AC in some way. Some say he came long ago, some symbolize him into something else, some deny the AC is even real at all, some think they will be raptured away so they don't have to deal with him....all likely promoted by the Devil so people will be deceived when the AC actually comes.

As to @IndianaRob I think he may be a full Preterist rather than a partial Preterist. How can anyone that thinks Christ's 2nd coming already happened not be a full Preterist?

 

[Davidpt]

You know I fight against Preterism, therefore I am not Preterit in doctrine. I agreed with IndianRobs post because he makes a distinction between spiritual and physical fulfillment. While I agree Christ has not yet come the second time, Scripture shows me that when Christ came to earth a man, He established the spiritual Kingdom of God that is not and shall never be physically upon this earth. The problem you seem to have is understanding spiritual fulfillment because unless you can physically see you will not believe.

Why are you then liking posts that promote full Preterism? Do the right thing then, unlike that post so no one gets the wrong impression about you. When someone says Christ's 2nd coming 'was', they are not meaning it occurs in the future still. They are clearly meaning it already occurred in the past.

 

[rwb]

That’s not how a see Heavenly Jerusalem. Most of the church hasn’t entered Heavenly Jerusalem yet, in fact most of the church is waiting for a cube to come down from heaven.

This may be true, but all who have been born again have spiritually entered into the heavenly Jerusalem "the spirits of just men made perfect." We have eternal spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us when we have been born again. Though our spirits have been perfected (spiritually) our mortal flesh will not be immortal until the sounding of the last/seventh trumpet.

Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24 (KJV) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[rwb]

Why are you then liking posts that promote full Preterism? Do the right thing then, unlike that post so no one gets the wrong impression about you.

I don't believe his post promoted Preterism.

 

[WPM]

Yes amen fantastic post, there is no verse in the bible that say, "unless you take the mark of the beast".

Thanks bro! The whole speculationism is fanciful and unbiblical.

 

[rwb]

As to @IndianaRob I think he may be a full Preterist rather than a partial Preterist. How can anyone that thinks Christ's 2nd coming already happened not be a full Preterist?

Many people in these forums label themselves partial preterits! I've not heard Rob call himself full Preterit, and in fact he has plainly said he is not.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't believe his post promoted Preterism.

Are you serious? You don't believe, in regard to the 2nd coming, that when someone says 'was', that it does not infer Preterism? What planet are you living on? Can't be the same planet some of the rest of us are living on. Ask him what he meant by the 2nd coming 'was'. Everyone knows, thus agrees, that the 2nd coming is code for the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age. Except for full Preterists, unless they can provide passages that are future to them still and involve Christ bodily returning in the end of this age. Pretribbers, OTOH, don't deny a bodily return of Christ in the end of this age. They simply think Christ comes in secret and snatches them away before the time of great tribulation. Then bodily returns after great tribulation.