St John of the Cross

[Hepzibah]

@MostlyConfused

I have started this thread as you mentioned SJOTC on @epis thread and I don't want to fill it up with my views as I disagree with him on a couple of points. That's OK as the Lord does not give His whole theology to one person. So long as the main points for salvation are there.

When someone comes to entire sanctification as it is called in the west, or into the 'garden of Eden' through the flaming sword, or a few other names like theosis or divinization, there is no need for a man to teach as the Holy Spitrit is to be the guide. Of course backed up by scripture, but now interpreted by Him alone.

SJOTC helped me by explaining there are two dark nights not one which holiness theology via Wesley and others say. It just means that they only got to one and Wesley nowhere says that he was freed from sin. That stage is Illumination whereby one has the Divine Light to teach one.

I think maybe it is the state of Righteousness.

So I agree that there is a 'higher walk without sin.

Getting back to SJOTC, he and Teresa of Avilla did not agree over this matter and she never confessed to being sinless, in fact she was still saying she was a sinner till she died. She also did not choose SJOTC as her Spiritual Director which I think was a major mistake. Her theology was much more acceptable to the people as she did not wave the sinless flag and upset them.

First, one area where I differ from epi is, I believe if you are trying to lead people on this journey, we should keep it simple. There are many things that one cannot grasp properly till they have entered in and only confuses them. It is not an intellectual exercise. It is abot obedience and learning how to listen to the Holy Spirit when He speaks. He is to be our teacher so it takes time to get used to this.

I also do not accept that one can gain salvation without Christ, the cross, and our own crucifixion.

But to go to the early church fathers now, they taught this, of course. If they didn't it would not be acceptable. Not all of them and error was in very early and the involvement of compromise with the state. They were very clear with it abd said there were three stages:

Purification where the Holy Spirit has startted to convict you about your so called walk with Christ and that you have fallen from your 'first love' which is not acceptable, not to love God with your whole heart and mind.

It slips in over time if one has not had the full gospel preached and been led on to perfection. This is where many are. Satan spreads his lies that it is okay. I am pleased to hear that you do not agree.

I will stop at that for a while till I get a reply.

 

[Hepzibah]

Forgot to name the other stages, so:

Illumination which comes usually duriung a crisis when one has the full picture of ones sins revealed and how they have let Christ down after all He did for them.

Union or the other names when one enters into the state where Adam was supposed to achieve, or sinless perfection, not of the mind, we will always misjudge or such mistakes but will not sin. The heart is made pure but we will often fall back to Illumination while we grow in the stature of Christ.

 

[MostlyConfused]

It’s nice to meet you. I disagree that when God chooses to take someone by this mode they do not need some sort of spiritual director, although today, where would you find one? So God put the mystics in my hand as guides and helpers to explain some about the confusing things I experienced and to let me know these different states were NORMAL in this mode that God chose for me. Even Paul, having received maybe more revelation than any man, began to fear he might be preaching in vain so he consulted with the apostles, ran it by them, sought their wisdom and understanding and agreement. It seems impossible, doesn’t it?? But he did.

Even with JOTC as a guide, I made some of the very mistakes he spoke about, even after reading him! I may very well have saved some agony and time and doubling back if I had a living person, I don’t know. But there wasn’t one.

You are wrong about Teresa not taking John as a guide and confessor. She is the one who convinced him to not take vows at the order he had decided on and come to work with her and start a men’s house of the reformed discalced. They taught each other. They met when Teresa was much older and John had just been ordained in his early 20’s if I recall correctly. I think HE first learned from Teresa. I do think (by the only writings we have to go by) John was taken further by God but Teresa seems to have been a catalyst for him, by openly sharing her own experience. She made John her confessor and the guide and confessor for the nuns under her care. She did what the devout will always do by recognizing John as someone God approved of to guide her charges and put herself under also. It wasn’t done by vote as men seem to want to do things but by her recognizing who GOD sees fit to guide.

Teresa may have been harmed and hindered by some doctrines of the church or maybe God decided where she would go and not go, but I think she was just so relieved to find a guide, confessor and helper who was taken by the same mode and understood it who didn’t try to convince her she was being led by the devil as her other confessors had who knew nothing of this mode, that she gratefully obtained some rest!

 

[MostlyConfused]

First, one area where I differ from epi is, I believe if you are trying to lead people on this journey, we should keep it simple. There are many things that one cannot grasp properly till they have entered in and only confuses them.

Episkopos keeps it so simple I almost cannot believe it, so I differ with you there. But since this is a forum, he cannot pull out just the devout to teach more to. Men should do as I have for over 20 years - pull the good you CAN feed on and understand and save judging the rest until later because you may not be ready for it or may yet be missing something that will click it into place.

Can you honestly say JOTC “kept it simple?” As simple as he could I think but not simple to me for a long time. I had to buy a second copy for wearing out the first one!

 

[Hepzibah]

It’s nice to meet you. I disagree that when God chooses to take someone by this mode they do not need some sort of spiritual director, although today, where would you find one? So God put the mystics in my hand as guides and helpers to explain some about the confusing things I experienced and to let me know these different states were NORMAL in this mode that God chose for me. Even Paul, having received maybe more revelation than any man, began to fear he might be preaching in vain so he consulted with the apostles, ran it by them, sought their wisdom and understanding and agreement. It seems impossible, doesn’t it?? But he did.

Even with JOTC as a guide, I made some of the very mistakes he spoke about, even after reading him! I may very well have saved some agony and time and doubling back if I had a living person, I don’t know. But there wasn’t one.

You are wrong about Teresa not taking John as a guide and confessor. She is the one who convinced him to not take vows at the order he had decided on and come to work with her and start a men’s house of the reformed discalced. They taught each other. They met when Teresa was much older and John had just been ordained in his early 20’s if I recall correctly. I think HE first learned from Teresa. I do think (by the only writings we have to go by) John was taken further by God but Teresa seems to have been a catalyst for him, by openly sharing her own experience. She made John her confessor and the guide and confessor for the nuns under her care. She did what the devout will always do by recognizing John as someone God approved of to guide her charges and put herself under also. It wasn’t done by vote as men seem to want to do things but by her recognizing who GOD sees fit to guide.

Teresa may have been harmed and hindered by some doctrines of the church or maybe God decided where she would go and not go, but I think she was just so relieved to find a guide, confessor and helper who was taken by the same mode and understood it who didn’t try to convince her she was being led by the devil as her other confessors had who knew nothing of this mode, that she gratefully obtained some rest!

Sorry did not mean that people do not need a director. They do, preferably, but once they are in 'the promised land' they will talk to others now and again, probably for a consensus but that weekly guidance is not needed anymore. They got to the place of direction. Yes you can find them in Anglican Catholicism but they are going by Ignation spirituality which is not the same thing. The one I am talking about was called the Via Triplex .

I came in by way of mystics but also a woman I met, very spiritual who advised me to read The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee and it was he who led me to Illumination, by that I mean knowing that sanctification was done on the cross and now we have to believe it and it is activated.

Yes Teresa did have John early one but she changed him as her director. He did not think she should take notice of - sorry forgot the word - things she took for signs and appearances and don't foget she would levitate which is demonic.

She pera did giude him early on but he outgrew her.

 

[Hepzibah]

Where did that come from?? haha

 

[MostlyConfused]

Where did that come from?? haha

Lol, it came from a misspelling on your part. I believe you typed “perahaps” or “peraharps” and it shrugged its shoulders and ran with a harp!

 

[MostlyConfused]

Sorry did not mean that people do not need a director. They do, preferably, but once they are in 'the promised land' they will talk to others now and again, probably for a consensus but that weekly guidance is not needed anymore. They got to the place of direction. Yes you can find them in Anglican Catholicism but they are going by Ignation spirituality which is not the same thing. The one I am talking about was called the Via Triplex .

I came in by way of mystics but also a woman I met, very spiritual who advised me to read The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee and it was he who led me to Illumination, by that I mean knowing that sanctification was done on the cross and now we have to believe it and it is activated.

Yes Teresa did have John early one but she changed him as her director. He did not think she should take notice of - sorry forgot the word - things she took for signs and appearances and don't foget she would levitate which is demonic.

She pera did giude him early on but he outgrew her.

I can’t see the part where you say we have to believe it and it is activated. Maybe I’m too much of a stickler. I think it ultimately hinges on total surrender and God accepting that sacrifice (even if we do not yet understand we even HAVE sacrificed!) God decides what to do and where to take us after that as we have given Him free reign. Thats how I see it.

 

[Hepzibah]

I can’t see the part where you say we have to believe it and it is activated. Maybe I’m too much of a stickler. I think it ultimately hinges on total surrender and God accepting that sacrifice (even if we do not yet understand we even HAVE sacrificed!) God decides what to do and where to take us after that as we have given Him free reign. Thats how I see it.

Yes I agree. I mean that when it is believed, it can come into force. Believing in His sacrifice is the faith that is needed. We can do nothing but have faith.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I also do not accept that one can gain salvation without Christ, the cross, and our own crucifixion.

Having just met you I feel bad disagreeing with so much but I disagree here too. Even more than disagree but even refuse to say who God can and will or will not save. I cannot do it. It would be the death of me, either from fear now or from being judged later as I have judged.

I think He makes a place for and has mercy on those who treat others as they want to be treated, who follow the conscience He gave them instead of drowning it, and who don’t pretend in delusions of what they are.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Yes I agree. I mean that when it is believed, it can come into force. Believing in His sacrifice is the faith that is needed. We can do nothing but have faith.

I find that confusing. I can’t glean what it is you’ve said.

 

[Hepzibah]

Having just met you I feel bad disagreeing with so much but I disagree here too. Even more than disagree but even refuse to say who God can and will or will not save. I cannot do it. It would be the death of me, either from fear now or from being judged later as I have judged.

I think He makes a place for and has mercy on those who treat others as they want to be treated, who follow the conscience He gave them instead of drowning it, and who don’t pretend in delusions of what they are.

Please disagree as much as you want. I welcome the chance to rethink things.

God does have mercy yes but the requisists for salvation are clear in scripture and it says that it is only through Christ's baptism of the Spirit that saves.

 

[Hepzibah]

I find that confusing. I can’t glean what it is you’ve said.

What I meant is, that we are not gradually sanctified as we go along which is where most are wrong. Christ gained it on the cross - our sanctification through faith and not works. Forgiveness is as epi said, mercy is not dependent on what we do. I do not accept the usual view of atonement.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Please disagree as much as you want. I welcome the chance to rethink things.

God does have mercy yes but the requisists for salvation are clear in scripture and it says that it is only through Christ's baptism of the Spirit that saves.

How then does He have that mercy on those who He doesn’t save…?
This is an imbalance.
Who needs to eat the fruit and use the leaves of the trees for healing? Surely not the crucified/those walking in His holiness…

 

[MostlyConfused]

What I meant is, that we are not gradually sanctified as we go along which is where most are wrong. Christ gained it on the cross - our sanctification through faith and not works. Forgiveness is as epi said, mercy is not dependent on what we do. I do not accept the usual view of atonement.

He gained it? Or He gave us a WAY to it and made it to be a possibility for us?

 

[Hepzibah]

I find that confusing. I can’t glean what it is you’ve said.

What I meant is, that we are not gradually sanctified as we go along which is where most are wrong. Christ gained it on the cross - our sanctification through faith and not works. Forgiveness is as epi said, mercy is not dependent on what we do. I do not accept the usual view of atonement.

How then does He have that mercy on those who He doesn’t save…?
This is an imbalance.
Who needs to eat the fruit and use the leaves of the trees for healing? Surely not the crucified/those walking in His holiness…

He has mercy for some on their deathbeds where they convert. A Christian nurse told me that. Dont quite get the second point.

 

[Hepzibah]

He gained it? Or He gave us a WAY to it and made it to be a possibility for us?

It was achieved for us on the cross if we join Him there in the crucifixion of our flesh.

 

[MostlyConfused]

What I meant is, that we are not gradually sanctified as we go along which is where most are wrong. Christ gained it on the cross - our sanctification through faith and not works. Forgiveness is as epi said, mercy is not dependent on what we do. I do not accept the usual view of atonement.

He has mercy for some on their deathbeds where they convert. A Christian nurse told me that. Dont quite get the second point.

If His mercy at judgement is not dependent on what we do by how we treat others then what prevents Hitler?

 

[Hepzibah]

If His mercy at judgement is not dependent on what we do by how we treat others then what prevents Hitler?

Then why did Christ have to die if we can save ourselves? We are judged by what we do but the main point is in doing it, whether we are in Christ or not.

 

[MostlyConfused]

It was achieved for us on the cross if we join Him there in the crucifixion of our flesh.

But that way is narrow and very few find it so you have no mercy on those who don’t but who treat others well?
Do you not know the verse I was referring to of the trees by the river on the new earth? They produce a different fruit each month and their leaves are for the healing of people. Who are the people the trees are for? Not those who were crucified and walk in His holiness don’t you think?