Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[GRACE ambassador]

my definition of it is - God deals with specific groups of people in different specified ways which is not biblical.

Precious friend, if "not biblical", then Why Did God Give us So Many Differences and Distinctions In
His Precious Word Of Truth?:

(a) Bible Contrasts

(b) BRIEF 'Example' Of Right Division

(c) God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery

(d) "Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

(e) No Other Doctrine But Right Division!

(f) Biblical 'Representations' of Twelve and ONE

(g) unScriptural or UNdispensational?

(h) Is The Body Of Christ The Lamb's Wife?

--------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[IndianaRob]

Precious friend, if "not biblical", then Why Did God Give us So Many Differences and Distinctions In
His Precious Word Of Truth?:

(a) Bible Contrasts

(b) BRIEF 'Example' Of Right Division

(c) God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery

(d) "Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

(e) No Other Doctrine But Right Division!

(f) Biblical 'Representations' of Twelve and ONE

(g) unScriptural or UNdispensational?

(h) Is The Body Of Christ The Lamb's Wife?

--------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

Can you give an example where the gospel is any different for a group or “dispensation” than it is right now?

 

[JimKnox]

Or you could quote the verses from Paul that debunks the pre-trib :)

2 Thessalonians 2:3 proves midtrib.
Consistent with Daniel 9:27.
Paul knew the scriptures.
Pretribbers do not.

 

[William Barton]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 proves midtrib.
Consistent with Daniel 9:27.
Paul knew the scriptures.
Pretribbers do not.

IMO:
The "rapture" is depicted in Revelation 14:14-16, where Jesus has descended to a cloud. The Greek word there is αρπαγησομεθα = ("we will be caught up"). This is mid-tribulation, prior to the "Great tribulation" (wrath of God).

See also John 14:2-3, 1Corinthians 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 11:12.

 

[William Barton]

IMO:
The restrainer is the Spirit of God.
o. Only God would have such capability.
o. God is triune: Father, Son, Spirit.
o. The restrainer is taken out of the way.
o. Jesus is not yet there, hence he is not in the way.
o. No one could take God the Father out of the way.

 

[Scott Downey]

IMO:
The Restrainer is the Spirit of God.

I think the restrainer could be Archangel Michael, whose job from God in scripture is to contend with Satan.

Jude 9
Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

1. Daniel 10:13
   But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Daniel 10:21
   But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Daniel 12:1
   

   Prophecy of the End Time​

   “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

 

[covenantee]

IMO:
The Restrainer is the Spirit of God.

Why didn't Paul say so?

 

[ewq1938]

Peter,
I am trying to understand what you were trying to get at. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

There is a "rapture", a "snatching away" of the church", but by no means is it going to be secret or hidden. Scripturally, it is shown to be very visible as being a  SIMULTANEOUS event, in conjunction with Christ taking vengeance on all the unsaved.

Physical violence happens at the second coming but only an army is killed. The rest of the unsaved are ruled over according to Rev 2, 19-20.

 

[Scott Downey]

Physical violence happens at the second coming but only an army is killed. The rest of the unsaved are ruled over according to Rev 2, 19-20.

v6-10 describes what happens at the second coming of Christ
Anyone who is not a believer, is destroyed.
Please review for yourself the scripture here, plain as the day is long.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 1 - 21st Century King James Version

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, Unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because your faith groweth exceedingly...

www.biblegateway.com

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, Unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace unto you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth,

4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all persecutions and tribulations that ye endure,

5 which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.

6 For it is a righteous thing with God to recompense with tribulation those who trouble you;

7 and to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[JimKnox]

IMO:
The "rapture" is depicted in Revelation 14:14-16, where Jesus has descended to a cloud. The Greek word there is αρπαγησομεθα = ("we will be caught up"). This is mid-tribulation, prior to the "Great tribulation" (wrath of God).

See also John 14:2-3, 1Corinthians 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 11:12.

Nice to meet a fellow midtrib Brother.

 

[ewq1938]

v6-10 describes what happens at the second coming of Christ
Anyone who is not a believer, is destroyed.

Nope.

Mortals do survive the second coming according to scripture


The arrival of Christ for the second time accomplishes many things including the vials of wrath and destroying the army of the beast at Armageddon as well as resulting in the beast and false prophet being cast into the LOF. There is one more thing mentioned during the second coming that many do not notice which is the future rule over the nations which proves there are unsaved mortals that are set aside for being ruled over by the rod of iron:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

https://www.blueletterbible .org/kjv/rev/19/15/t_conc_1186015

https://biblehub .com/interlinear/revelation/19-15.htm

(remove the spaces before .com and .org in the two links)


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves some mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Compare that wording to these:

Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

These are survivors of the Great Tribulation. Same here:

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.


It is impossible to understand what happens at the second coming and what happens AFTER the second coming properly without understanding the verb tenses involved.

Since scripture does not contradict itself, there are no scriptures which state all mortals are slain at the second coming leaving none to be ruled over.

 

[Scott Downey]

Nope.

Mortals do survive the second coming according to scripture


The arrival of Christ for the second time accomplishes many things including the vials of wrath and destroying the army of the beast at Armageddon as well as resulting in the beast and false prophet being cast into the LOF. There is one more thing mentioned during the second coming that many do not notice which is the future rule over the nations which proves there are unsaved mortals that are set aside for being ruled over by the rod of iron:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

https://www.blueletterbible .org/kjv/rev/19/15/t_conc_1186015

https://biblehub .com/interlinear/revelation/19-15.htm

(remove the spaces before .com and .org in the two links)


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves some mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Compare that wording to these:

Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

These are survivors of the Great Tribulation. Same here:

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.


It is impossible to understand what happens at the second coming and what happens AFTER the second coming properly without understanding the verb tenses involved.

Since scripture does not contradict itself, there are no scriptures which state all mortals are slain at the second coming leaving none to be ruled over.

Sure, mortal christians survive the 2nd coming, but don't by your interpretation of scripture create another contradiction of scripture, example in 2 Thess 1. If your doctrine does that, then toss it out.

John 3
34 For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God, for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him.

35 The Father loveth the Son and hath given all things into His hand.

36 He that believeth in the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

 

[Scott Downey]

When Christ comes a second time, that wrath of God is manifested at the judgment

Unbelievers don't escape judgment, only believers do, and only they inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 15 and the resurrection

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Who is changed at the second coming? Only the believing.

Since the unbelieving dont inherit the kingdom, and are not changed and are not saved, they are all destroyed

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 17 - 21st Century King James Version

Then said He unto His disciples, "It is impossible but that offenses will come, but woe unto him through whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hung about his neck and he cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to fall. "Take heed to...

www.biblegateway.com

24 For as the lightning that lighteneth one part under heaven shineth unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of Man be in His day.

25 But first must He suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man:

27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;

29 but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “Even thus shall it be in the Day when the Son of Man is revealed.

 

[PeterAndroz]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 proves midtrib.
Consistent with Daniel 9:27.
Paul knew the scriptures.
Pretribbers do not.

That's an opinion JK, good for you :)

 

[ewq1938]

Sure, mortal christians survive the 2nd coming,

Those ppl will be immortal, and they won't be on the Earth at that time. Rev 19 speaks of unsaved people being ruled over after the events of Rev 19. Same people satan goes to deceive after the thousand years is over. It is they that are ruled over during the thousand years who are the same people being ruled over in the symbolic thousand years in Amill.

but don't by your interpretation of scripture create another contradiction of scripture, example in 2 Thess 1. I

No.

 

[ewq1938]

Unbelievers don't escape judgment, only believers do, and only they inherit the kingdom of God.

Believers do not escape judgment.

1Pe_4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[CrowCross]

Defining it didn’t serve a purpose in our conversation but my definition of it is - God deals with specific groups of people in different specified ways which is not biblical.

How is that not biblical? I've asked you several times....do you sacrifice bulls, sheep or turtledoves?

So, define dispensationalism...or move on.

 

[IndianaRob]

How is that not biblical? I've asked you several times....do you sacrifice bulls, sheep or turtledoves?

So, define dispensationalism...or move on.

I said in my last post to you - “my definition of it is - God deals with specific groups of people in different specified ways which is not biblical.”

 

[PeterAndroz]

I said in my last post to you - “my definition of it is - God deals with specific groups of people in different specified ways which is not biblical.”

Along the lines of what CC asked you, are your sins today forgiven by the sacrifice of animals ?

 

[CrowCross]

I said in my last post to you - “my definition of it is - God deals with specific groups of people in different specified ways which is not biblical.”

Different groups of people? Like the Amish? Like the Russian orthodox church? What do you mean by different groups of people????