Actually Jesus returns twice...

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rebuilder 454

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Why is Jesus coming immediately AFTER the tribulation?

If the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 as you claim, wouldn't Jesus come and speak the Word and destroy the armies at Armageddon and end the tribulation? Why is He coming after the tribulation and not before it is over?

What will it take to get you to see?
That "after the trib , is not "after what you say".
Any position of what mat 24 is interpreted , needs qualifiers.
It needs to fit.
Preterists and postribbers use verses as all of us.
The game changer is the qualifiers.
( things I can and can not say that makes my position biblical)
Most all falsehoods have a parallel running directly beside them that make their use of verses a total impossibility.

Once those impossibilities are exposed, I must move away.
I actually have no choice.

The qualifiers you omit are the game changers.

Jesus WILL come 3 more times

That is a no brainer reading obvious passages.
Any refuting of that, will be challenged by me.
Not by what I think, but by the words written in the Bible.
1 the pretrib rapture
2 the Jewish gathering of rev 14
3 the white horses of rev 19. Post 7yr trib.

Only one place is his return in power and great glory.
Anything else presented will not fit.

Just that simple.
Preterist use scriptures and make quite a compelling case. But that case is only compelling in ther circles.
And it just flat out doesn't fit.
But nonetheless, they do have their verses. And they can convince the unlearned ignorant Bible reader that their case is bulletproof.
I got saved into a preterism church. As a babe and Christ, it just so happens that I read "tribulations such as the world has never seen not ever will". So that 1 passage doesn't qualify them. It disqualifies them. And I knew they were wrong.
 
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William Barton

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o God spoke, and this universe came into existence (Genesis 1:1).
o "And God *said* " (Genesis 1:3) is Jesus, *Word* of God (John 1:14).
o Jesus is God (John 1:1-14).
o God is triune (Mathew 28:19).
o Man, in God's image, is triune: body, soul, spirit (1Thessalonians 5:23).
 
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Scott Downey

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I've already told you in the opening post.

You didn't address the white horse nor the days of Noah and Lot.
He came down from heaven 2000 years ago a first time.
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to Heaven, but He that came down from Heaven, even the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
John 6:38
For I came down from Heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me.

There is only one more time He comes, never a third time is mentioned in scripture


26 for then would He have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once, in the end of the world, hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment,

28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto those who look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation.
 

Scott Downey

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On His second time when He returns, He comes in glory, first time in humility, second time glorified with all power.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.

32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations, and He shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats.

Luke 9:26
For whosoever shall be ashamed of Me and of My words, of him shall the Son of Man be ashamed when He shall come in His own glory and in His Father’s and of the holy angels.


22 And He said unto the disciples, “The days will come when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, ‘See, here!’ or ‘See, there!’ Go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning that lighteneth one part under heaven shineth unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of Man be in His day.

25 But first must He suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man:

27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;

29 but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “Even thus shall it be in the Day when the Son of Man is revealed.

When Christ is revealed to the world coming on the clouds, every eye shall see Him returning


6 and hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.

8 “I Am Alpha And Omega, The Beginning And The Ending,” saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
 

CrowCross

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He came down from heaven 2000 years ago a first time.
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to Heaven, but He that came down from Heaven, even the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
John 6:38
For I came down from Heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me.

There is only one more time He comes, never a third time is mentioned in scripture


26 for then would He have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once, in the end of the world, hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment,

28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto those who look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation.
Then enjoy the tribulation!!!!
 

Scott Downey

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Then enjoy the tribulation!!!!


Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, Unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace unto you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth,

4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all persecutions and tribulations that ye endure,

5 which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.

6 For it is a righteous thing with God to recompense with tribulation those who trouble you;

7 and to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

CrowCross

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Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, Unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace unto you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth,

4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all persecutions and tribulations that ye endure,

5 which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.

6 For it is a righteous thing with God to recompense with tribulation those who trouble you;

7 and to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, Jesus say a christian will experience tribulations...trials...hard times...persecution....but that isn't the 7 year tribulation.
Go read Rev 8 and tell me if you'll enjoy those moments. Tell me if you think you'll enjoy that WRATH?

As I said....Then enjoy the tribulation!!!!
 

ewq1938

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As I said....Then enjoy the tribulation!!!!

No one gets to avoid the wrath of the trib. The church is promised that wrath as long as one is alive when the trib begins. There is a way out of the trib, it's called Apostasy otherwise known as the Departure....a false departure but it will mean zero wrath during the trib.
 

gpresdo

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There are those who conclude that Christ comes at the rapture...I am not persuaded by scripture.
The 2nd advent of Crist is later and to end the 7 year tribulation period, with His angels.
 

CrowCross

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There are those who conclude that Christ comes at the rapture...I am not persuaded by scripture.
The 2nd advent of Crist is later and to end the 7 year tribulation period, with His angels.
If Christ doesn't come at the rapture...who then comes?
 

Scott Downey

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Well, you could physically die before it happens as a way of escape...
The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

2 He shall enter into peace; they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.
 

Scott Downey

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If Christ doesn't come at the rapture...who then comes?
Jesus explains much of when He returns in Mark 13
v27 is the rapture, the gathering to Him, happens after the tribulation and after the evil 'antichrist', false prophet who works wonders and miracles to deceive if possible the elect of God....v22


And as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said unto Him, “Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!”

2 And Jesus answering, said unto him, “Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

3 And as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him privately,

4 “Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?”

5 And Jesus answering them, began to say, “Take heed lest any man deceive you.

6 For many shall come in My name, saying, ‘I am Christ!’ and shall deceive many.

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be ye not troubled, for such things must come to pass; but the end shall not be yet.

8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginnings of sorrows.

9 “But take heed for yourselves, for they shall deliver you up to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten. And ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the Gospel must first be proclaimed among all nations.

11 But when then shall lead you and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak; neither need ye premeditate. But whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated by all men for My name’s sake; but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 “But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not be” (let him that readeth understand), “then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains.

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein to take any thing out of his house.

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, ‘Lo, here is Christ!’ or, ‘Lo, He is there!’ believe him not;

22 for false christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed; behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, ‘the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.’

26 And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


27 And then shall He send His angels and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28 “Now learn a parable of the fig tree: When her branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near.

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man — no, not the angels who are in Heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.

33 “Take ye heed, watch and pray; for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore, for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh — at evening, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning —

36 lest coming suddenly, He find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you, I say unto all: Watch!”
 

MostlyConfused

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Actually Jesus returns twice...

Acts 1:
11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

In verse 9 we see a description....9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

In 1 Thes 4 we read about the resurrection/rapture (caught up) event.
16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Jesus simply ascended into the clouds...nothing spectacular. At the resurrection rapture event Jesus returns in the clouds the same way He left.

When we get to Rev 19 we see a different description of the return of Jesus....
11
Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

In Mark 16:19–20; Luke 24:50–53 there is no mention of a white horse. if Jesus ascended into heaven on a white horse surely Luke or Mark would have mentioned it.

There are obviously 2 returns as two distinctly different description are provided in the bible to read.

The pre-trib return...
In Luke 17 Jesus provides a description and relates it to the days of Noah and Lot
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jesus told us... "People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building." If you think about it if Jesus only returns once at the end of the great tribulation....considering what the world has just gone through I don't think people will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building. BUT...in the pre-trib return scenario it describes what it is like today...people ARE eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building.
It also says He will come from Bozrah with His robes stained red.
 

CrowCross

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Jesus explains much of when He returns in Mark 13
v27 is the rapture, the gathering to Him, happens after the tribulation and after the evil 'antichrist', false prophet who works wonders and miracles to deceive if possible the elect of God....v22


And as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said unto Him, “Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!”

2 And Jesus answering, said unto him, “Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

3 And as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him privately,

4 “Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?”

5 And Jesus answering them, began to say, “Take heed lest any man deceive you.

6 For many shall come in My name, saying, ‘I am Christ!’ and shall deceive many.

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be ye not troubled, for such things must come to pass; but the end shall not be yet.

8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginnings of sorrows.

9 “But take heed for yourselves, for they shall deliver you up to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten. And ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the Gospel must first be proclaimed among all nations.

11 But when then shall lead you and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak; neither need ye premeditate. But whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated by all men for My name’s sake; but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 “But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not be” (let him that readeth understand), “then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains.

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein to take any thing out of his house.

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, ‘Lo, here is Christ!’ or, ‘Lo, He is there!’ believe him not;

22 for false christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed; behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, ‘the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.’

26 And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


27 And then shall He send His angels and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28 “Now learn a parable of the fig tree: When her branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near.

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man — no, not the angels who are in Heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.

33 “Take ye heed, watch and pray; for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore, for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh — at evening, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning —

36 lest coming suddenly, He find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you, I say unto all: Watch!”
Will Jesus find you sleeping when He comes at the pre-trib rapture?
 

GRACE ambassador

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Are we glorified at this pretrib rapture?
Precious friend, Definitely Eternal Glorification, ...

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall​
sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on​
immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed​
up in victory. " (1 Corinthians 15:51-54 AV)​

Full study: ...God Delivering us from "The Presence of sin" At:
----------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:


The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.