Pictures of Christ 2 returns...

[A Watchman]

That same ratio is in mat 24.
"One taken/ one left behind, pretrib, watch and be ready."

Seems like the same ratio, but several cases of one taken and one left doesn't cover other cases where 10 might be left or 5 might be taken to their death. Maybe there's a group in the grocery store that none are taken. We don't have the whole picture to gauge whether it's the same ratio or not.

Matthew 25:1-13 is speaking of 10 virgins waiting for the bridegroom, which would seem to encapsulate the whole of those expecting to marry this bridegroom. However, only 5 do and 5 are shut out. In this parable we are given the view of the whole and then given the part included and excluded. It's also a different context because the ones taken are taken to eternal life, not corpses.

 

[A Watchman]

Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [a]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

How can what is described in relation to the trumpets all happen after the wrath of the Lamb (Jesus Christ, obviously) has already come at the sixth seal or shortly after (see Rev 6:16-17)?

Firstly, I wouldn't let the scared people whose lack of attention has led to being caught unawares as defining when the wrath actually begins. Yeah they're scared and hiding from Him at His coming, but for those watching it's a time of looking up because their redemption draws nigh.

Secondly, we are told immediately after this that even the wind should not blow on the earth or sea or trees so they are not hurt until the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed.

Revelation 7:1-3 – "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Then, after the seventh seal is broken and the seven angels are given their trumpets, what do the first four trumpetters do? They hurt the earth, sea, and trees.

Revelation 8:7-12 – "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise."

Now this last one might seem like it's not something to hurt the earth, but if the effects of sun, moon, and stars were shortened by 1/3, what kind of havoc would that cause on the earth (heat) and seas (tides)?

Personally, I think this speaks to a speeding up of the rotation of the earth such that 4 hours of the day and night, 8 hours total, are missing because it's spinning faster. Perhaps this is related to celestial events that caused Wormwood and the asteroid strike and hail and fire. That's admittedly speculation on my part.

 

[A Watchman]

His wrath will come down on the day when He returns (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:11-21)?

The wrath will begin when He returns, yes. But you have to take all the other scriptures into account as well.

Matthew 24:35-39 – "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Heaven and earth will pass away when everything else that must be accomplished is and His words will never pass away, amen! Yeshua will reign from Jerusalem for 1,000 years after defeating the armies at Armageddon. His return at that time shows the evidence of Him treading the winepress of the wrath of God prior to it. Revelation 19:13, Isaiah 63:1-6 That is the beginning of the day of the Lord.

Luke 17:26-37 – "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

The days of Noah and Lot saw the righteous removed from the destination of God's wrath before it came. Noah and family above the global destruction and Lot and family away from the localized destruction. The wrath of God is coming on all them that dwell on the whole earth, so we will be removed before it comes, at the sixth seal when He returns to save faithful Israel out of the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea as promised in Jeremiah 30:4-7, Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:15-22, and Mark 13:14-20.

But note that the warning not to go back to your house to collect your stuff, that's tied to the abomination of desolation before the wrath of God comes and like Lot's wife looked back to the life she was losing in departing, so will people die if they don't just flee.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 – "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Yes, this is the wrath of God, the sudden destruction that comes from the Almighty, that we are to escape. This is different from the wrath of the Dragon at the abomination of desolation that begins before God's wrath. Matthew 24:15-31

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 – "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

The rapture takes place when the Lord returns, that is the completion of our race we run and are caught up to Him to eternal rest in glorified bodies. That is also when He will take vengeance on the world not caught up to escape His wrath as promised. They will not only receive the wrath of God temporally, but ultimately upon death will be punished with everlasting destruction in hades until death and hell are cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgement, then they will be cast into the lake of fire forever to be punished there as well.

2 Peter 3:8-12 – "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

From the time of Yeshua's return until after the great white throne judgement will be a day known to the Lord that is like 1,000 years to us. It begins with God's wrath, continues with Yeshua's presence reigning on earth after His enemies are defeated, and ends with final judgement and the second death when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Then this heaven and earth are destroyed, the very elements melting with a fervent heat and a new heaven and earth are created in which we will live with Him forever.

Revelation 19:11-21 – "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Yeshua has already begun treading the winepress of the wrath of God as evidenced by His return from heaven already splattered with the blood of His enemies. They weren't in heaven, so He must have been on earth carrying out the wrath prior to Armageddon. He is going to rule the nations that He's smiting with a rod of iron, meaning they aren't destroyed, they're ruled over as it states clearly.

 

[A Watchman]

So, how can all of the trumpet events occurr even after He returns? That's not possible. The seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel to each other.

The trumpets and bowls are His treading the winepress of the wrath of God.

Isaiah 63:1-6 – "Who [is] this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this [that is] glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore [art thou] red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance [is] in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

The day of vengeance and His redeemed are the same time, we escape before it begins. He treads the winepress alone and the evidence is the blood-sprinkled garments. He has to return to earth to tread the winepress of the wrath of God on the earth. That's what the sixth seal is. He's the only one worthy to carry out the vengeance.

Revelation 5:1-7 – "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

The trumpets and bowls can occur after He returns because He is the one responsible for them taking place in the earth. The seals, trumpets, and bowls cannot be parallel to each other because the trumpets aren't given to the angels until the seventh seal is opened.

Revelation 8:1-2 – "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

The seven bowls are handed to the angels after the seventh trumpet began to sound.

Revelation 15:1, 5-7 – "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ... And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."

And it sounds over a period of time, not just one blast like the others because the seven bowls fill up the wrath of God and come after the trumpet while they complete the wrath before the mystery of God is finished, meaning that all the bowls take place within the seventh trumpet, but after all 6 previous trumpets were blown and the events they portend took place.

Revelation 10:7 – "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The idea of a parallel seals, trumpets and bowls is neither suggestive in consistent similarities between them nor in the literal statements in words of their clear order.

 

[A Watchman]

That is because that is what Jesus was referring to.


The question they asked isn't where those taken will be taken. The question they asked is where will it take place that one is taken and the other is left? Jesus's answer is that it will happen wherever the birds gather around dead bodies. In other words, it will happen everywhere because His return is a global event and unbelievers will be killed throughout the world when He comes. That's why He compared that event to what happened to unbelievers in the flood which He specifically pointed out that it "destroyed them all" (Luke 17:28). When Jesus returns, all in Christ will be caught up to Him and everyone else will be destroyed. That is what is indicated in Luke 17:26-37 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4.

So the disciples thought that it might happen somewhere other than earth?

The Noah and Lot is tied to "the day when the Son of man is revealed." It then continues with another section.

Luke 17:31-37 – "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Matthew 24:15-18, 21-22, 28 – "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ... For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

They're both talking about the same time just before the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:9-14 – "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Interesting that this is the exact same order Yeshua gave for the end of the age and the sign of His coming. Great tribulation starting at the abomination of desolation where many will be killed for their faithfulness followed by the sixth seal and His coming when those in Judea are saved out of the time cut short and the elect are gathered from the earth to meet the Lord in the air.

The one taken is taken to corpses, killed. This is the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea. Those who don't flee to the mountains at the abomination of desolation will be caught up in this. It is separate from the Noah/Lot analogy, which is tied to escaping God's wrath. In both Matthew 24 and Luke 17 the Noah/Lot analogy ends with "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" before moving on to the one taken one left. The one taken is tied to corpses, not immortality, though if they died in Christ, they will be raised shortly after, once all their fellowservants have been killed as they were prior to the sixth seal.

 

[ewq1938]

Stop using the word "trib". Instead say "70th week" or "7 years".

Stop using the word "stop". Instead use the word "begin".

The 6th seal event is not the 7th trumpet plague.

The seal describes what happens in the 7th trump. No plague is in the the 7th trump text.

The 7th trumpet sounded announces what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing that his time is short. Revelation 12:12.

That is not the 3rd woe trump. The 3rd woe is found in Rev 11, with some of it's events found in the text of the 6th seal. Rev 12 where woe is found is some time before the 6th trumpet. At the very best it could possibly be a reference to trhe first woe trump but it is unlikely a reference to any of those last trumps.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, if it's a distinction that only half of the faithful in the church in relationship with Yeshua are taken then I do not agree. The parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 is pretty clear that all the virgins were waiting for the bridegroom, but only 50% of them actually did because the five foolish virgins were shut out of the marriage and told by the bridegroom that He did not know them.

I think the foolish represent those Christians that commit the Apostasy.

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.



The foolish take only their lamps, which have a reservoir of oil but doesnt hold an overly large amount. The wise take extra containers of oil, vessels, so they have a larger supply.


Many believe that the oil is truth, love, forgiveness or The Holy Spirit. It doesn't really matter for the purpose of the parable which it represents since all the virgins are intending to meet the bridegroom as verse 1 says, and all have lamps and oil, though some have more oil. However, I believe it represents truth and faith and will allude to that in this work.


Faith is belief in the truth without evidence. It takes faith to believe something is true without it being proven. So who would have "some" truth and who want to meet Christ but fall short? I would say they are most Christians of today. They have the milk of the word, and they certainly want to go to Christ, but they dont have the whole truth and they believe doctrines like the pre-tribulation rapture.


The wise ones have more of the truth, they carry it on purpose, its more labor but they know it's important. These will have enough truth to know about the tribulation and the false Christ and they will stay true to Christ until He returns.



5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.


The darkness at midnight will be the tribulation. The cry being made is by those who are the watchers, who are telling that the true Christ is coming even though the whole world sleeps because of the darkness. The 5 wise virgins are the elect and the ones "calling" that the true Christ is coming are the watchers and the two prophets. When this call is made by them the elect will "wake up" and trim their lamps and use that oil they have. They get all this extra oil before the tribulation, which is now, through the teachings of those God has anointed with truth and faith, that extra oil. So, even the wise 5 virgins slumber right until Christ was announced!