MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[Scott Downey]

This is too funny and sad at the same moment for the very thing you claim of "others" you do yourself!!!

You clearly do not believe 2 Thess 1, or Jesus describing His own returning in Luke 17 as like the time of Noah, cause you religion requires many unbelieving survivors for Christians to rule over for 1000 years. Just those 2 things invalidate your POV

 

[ewq1938]

What does that mean? Daniel explains one resurrection of types of people proving there is no 1000 year gap. All I’m asking you to explain is why you think Daniel 12 allows for a 1000 year gap. What part of the text are you seeing that I’m not seeing?

Dan 12 does not state both resurrections happen on the same day. Rev 20 clearly explains that over a thousand years occurs between the two resurrections. Harmonizing the various passages on this topic shows there are two resurrections, the righteous first and the rest/unsaved last and that there's over a thousand years inbetween. It is always a bad idea to focus on one passage and not include the info from other ones on the same exact topic.

 

[ewq1938]

1000 yr reign on this old earth after Christ returns with the unbelieving and wicked still alive and kicking, resisting God, goes against what He taught, and also against what the apostles taught.

Amill and Premill both teach a thousand years on this old Earth. Why do you present this as if only Premill teaches it?

 

[ewq1938]

Those verses tell us WHEN the resurrection is, not what the resurrection is.

Nothing in there modifies or changes or clarifies the first two verses in the chapter that actually do explain what the resurrection is - one resurrection with two groups being resurrected at the same time.

Let's talk about the group of the saved that resurrect. When specifically does that happen?

 

[Davidpt]

Question:

Is Revelation subject to Daniel ch12?
or
Is Daniel ch12 subject to the Gospel, the Apostles writings and finally Revelation?

Maybe some of the following might answer some of that?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


When do you think this day(verse 22) is meaning? For one thing, it is obviously meaning when one enters the kingdom of heaven. We at least know that much.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

If this is not when one bodily enters the kingdom of heaven then what is one entering here? Keeping in mind, that the kingdom of heaven doesn't have to literally exist only in heaven in order for it to be called the kingdom heaven. It can exist on the earth and still be called the kingdom of heaven, that being the point.

It seems absurd that Matthew 7:22 is only meaning those in the body of Christ that are still physically alive when He comes. Rather than it means everyone in the body of Christ per the past 2000 years. And if it's the latter, and surely it is, how can everyone in the body of Christ this applies to say these things to the Lord in that day, the fact many of them will have already died before Christ returns, unless they are bodily resurrected, thus the ones everlasting contempt in Daniel 12:2 applies to?

To summarize, my view is that the sheep and goats judgment is involving the ones meant in Daniel 12:2 but is not involving anyone meant in Revelation 20:11-15. And that the sheep and goats judgment is meaning before/or the beginning of the millennium, and That Revelation 20:11-15 is meaning after the millennium. And that Matthew 7:22 is fulfilled at the sheep and goats judgment which then requires everyone this applies to have to appear before Him at that time. Except some can't do that unless they are bodily resurrected first. And that Matthew 7:22 never says in that day(plural) as if that day can be fulfilled more than one time and at different times.

 

[Scott Downey]

Amill and Premill both teach a thousand years on this old Earth. Why do you present this as if only Premill teaches it?

Have you all missed something here?
This reign of 1000 years excludes all Christians who did not experience the great tribulation...
They had to have been beheaded, and refused the mark and refused to worship the beast.

So why are these saints even around, IF, all of them were raptured before the great tribulation began??
Obviously something about that understanding is phony... Christ comes secretly, rapturing all the believers, so who are these folks, wont be any of you, cause in your religion, you all are raptured and will never experience any of this. You will not be reigning with Christ 1000 years, if your pre-trib or middle trib, only post trib believers can possibly qualify.

INCLUDING your resurrection, which will only take place after the 1000 year reign!
You will still be in the grave! After Christ returns! Does anyone see what I am saying here...

Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

[Davidpt]

Have you all missed something here?
This reign of 1000 years excludes all Christians who did not experience the great tribulation...
They had to have been beheaded, and refused the mark and refused to worship the beast.

So why are these saints even around, IF, all of them were raptured before the great tribulation began??
Obviously something about that understanding is phony... Christ comes secretly, rapturing all the believers, so who are these folks, wont be any of you, cause in your religion, you all are raptured and will never experience any of this. You will not be reigning with Christ 1000 years, if your premill or middle mill, only post mil believers can possibly qualify.

Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Why are you asking @ewq1938 those things? He doesn't believe in a Pretrib rapture. Some of you apparently don't understand that not all Premils are also Pretribbers.

 

[Scott Downey]

Why are you asking @ewq1938 those things? He doesn't believe in a Pretrib rapture. Some of you apparently don't understand that not all Premils are also Pretribbers.

I am just spring boarding off the post, unless you are post trib, you can not be resurrected until the 1000 years is over, and you will also be subject to the 'second death'
Pre mill, mid trib rapturists, will not qualify to be resurrected as part of the first resurrection, and remain in the grave at the return of Christ.

That is entirely contrary to what Christ taught about the resurrection, meaning the interpretation is phony and wrong...

So what do you believe?

 

[David in NJ]

You clearly do not believe 2 Thess 1, or Jesus describing His own returning in Luke 17 as like the time of Noah, cause you religion requires many unbelieving survivors for Christians to rule over for 1000 years. Just those 2 things invalidate your POV

Surely as Paul spoke/wrote by the Holy Spirit of Truth i BELIEVE 1st and 2nd Thess and all of the NT as well as the OT Foundation/Genesis.

Just now read Luke ch17(again) and it is all Truth
As to that which you may be assessing my assessing as differing, just let me know = no harm in sharing.

JESUS said "as in the days of Noah" and Peter said whereby few were saved(8 souls).

Furthermore, JESUS Says: "If the Lord had not shortened the days, no flesh would be saved."

Based on our LORD's own words, out of the 8 Billion souls now on earth, a few could be as little as 8 million = 0.1 percent

The Word of God from Genesis to Revelation Validate that i believe His words = 1,000 years as Prophesied

Love you my brother in Christ

 

[Scott Downey]

3 Reasons Why There Cannot Ba A Pre-Tribulation Rapture | NoPreTrib

Demonstrates a balanced examination of Christian suffering and biblical interpretation.

nopretrib.com

A blog I commented on in the past just came up in my mail

 

[ewq1938]

Have you all missed something here?
This reign of 1000 years excludes all Christians who did not experience the great tribulation...

No, all will reign with Christ. Rev 20 just focuses upon a smaller group. Rev 2 includes all.


Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[David in NJ]

No, all will reign with Christ. Rev 20 just focuses upon a smaller group. Rev 2 includes all.


Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 20 includes the entire Saved Body of Christ but only mentions those who were faithful unto death/beheaded.

Now why do think God stated it this way?

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 20 includes the entire Saved Body of Christ but only mentions those who were faithful unto death/beheaded.

Now why do think God stated it this way?

Because it follows the timeline of being right after the trib has ended so focuses upon those that were murdered during that time. Those overcomers aren't the only overcomers, just the most recent examples. They are also some of the ones mentioned to die in the 5th seal.

 

[Scott Downey]

No, all will reign with Christ. Rev 20 just focuses upon a smaller group. Rev 2 includes all.


Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 20 clearly qualifies for the first resurrection only the ones who refuse to take the mark and refuse worship of the beast and are then beheaded by the beast, only they come to life, not the rest of the dead...who have to wait to be resurrected, even all the other Christians!

What about all the faithful who died in the Lord before that tribulation? Because they are all excluded...

That also points out the understanding most have of the 1000 year reign is wrong. It does not agree whatsoever with what is taught elsewhere about the resurrection of the believers in Christ. Those resurrected after the first resurrection are also subject to the second death, that would include all saved believers, which again is against what scripture teaches elsewhere.

Plainly as commonly understood the interpretation is phony. If people would examine the doctrine, they will find by necessity they are conflicted about what they believe when compared with all the scriptures, if they honestly examined them.

Will they look and see? I don't know, but they should.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 20 clearly qualifies for the first resurrection only the ones who refuse to take the mark and refuse worship of the beast and are then beheaded by the beast, only they come to life, not the rest of the dead...who have to wait to be resurrected, even all the other Christians!

As I said, that's just one group focused upon not the entirety of those taking part in the first of two resurrections.

Have ye not read that the dead in Christ rise first? Rise first and first resurrection are linguistically the same.

Other passages speak of all the saved being resurrected together such as these:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

 

[David in NJ]

Because it follows the timeline of being right after the trib has ended so focuses upon those that were murdered during that time. Those overcomers aren't the only overcomers, just the most recent examples. They are also some of the ones mentioned to die in the 5th seal.

ALL Good Brother
Here is one more reason why the FATHER only mentions those.............it's very important to the God

The Highest Faith is when a saint faces death for his/her faith = Abel, Isaiah, Shadrack-Mishack-Abednego, Peter Paul, and many others.

We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

 

[David in NJ]

As I said, that's just one group focused upon not the entirety of those taking part in the first of two resurrections.

Have ye not read that the dead in Christ rise first? Rise first and first resurrection are linguistically the same.

Other passages speak of all the saved being resurrected together such as these:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

YEPPER

 

[WPM]

As I said, that's just one group focused upon not the entirety of those taking part in the first of two resurrections.

Have ye not read that the dead in Christ rise first? Rise first and first resurrection are linguistically the same.

Other passages speak of all the saved being resurrected together such as these:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

You deny Christ's first resurrection 2000 years ago. That is blasphemy! You apply to man what pertains to God.

What is more, you add onto Scripture continually. Where is the thousand years mentioned here in any of those passages? Nowhere! You force it into these texts. That is heresy. You are corrupting the Word of God.

 

[WPM]

Amill and Premill both teach a thousand years on this old Earth. Why do you present this as if only Premill teaches it?

Not true. Amils believe this earth will be renewed of all the bondage of corruption. Premils do not. They anticipate the same old same old. They believe in some fictional sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future thousand-years age.

 

[WPM]

Well you better tell the LORD that HE made a BIG MISTAKE resurrecting Lazurus.

Did he conquered death?