St John of the Cross

[MostlyConfused]

How odd of you, I did not lie, it was bad research, besides "Jesus" and "Christ" not checking for the word "Saviour", used only 7 times BTW, nevertheless my apologies.

The book is a dangerous teaching, opening yourself to all kind of mystic thoughts, feelings and experiences that easily can be deceptive. How do you know what your mind is telling you, is it God, your own, the devil? We are told to capture every thought to obey Christ [2Cor 10:5], so who is speaking? Can the devil break in into your thoughts? Sure he can : And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. [1Chr 21:1] Issue, David's pride. With devastating consequences.

I prefer sane and clear Scripture.

On the subject here is a story that happened to me a couple of years ago. It was my birthday and I was making coffee in the kitchen when suddenly out of the blue a loud thought came to me -- this is your last birthday -- Ouch.. I was flabbergasted. To be clear I never had such an experience before. Where did this loud thought come from, one of these random thoughts everybody has, was in the Lord who was speaking (with Scriptural reference to King Hizkia and Peter), I did not know. At the time I ruled out the devil.

I decided to take it seriously, the experience was unique although I certainly did not rule out a random thought of own brain that took me by surprise. And so (how do you say that correctly) I prepared myself to meet my Maker any day. I did not told my wife or anyone, she would ask me 10 times a day how I feel, that would be cruel. I had to deal with this alone. Days past, weeks past, months past, all the way to 2 hours till my next birthday, still alive. And so I wrote an email to my wife (she slept already) telling her the whole story, just in case. I went to bed about 2 AM expecting maybe to die in my sleep before 7:30 AM, the time of my birth.

I woke up and thus the loud thought was a LIE, not of God.

Later I learned about David's experience, provoked by the devil, which became an eye opener, the devil the liar, the father of lies [John 8:44], he told me the lie.

Be careful out there, trust the Scriptures, not teachings of men, that book is full of it, tempting Christians with a need (or shall I say) vulnerable for mysticism.

Almost the entire book, Dark Night, deals with not paying attention to, or desiring to have, things like your experience, going into great detail about all the ways you can be deceived, whether through visions, locutions, dreams, feelings, etc.
Its literally what the book is about. Literally.
He had seen many people deceived by them and explains, even to the point of overkill, how not to be deceived.

 

[ProDeo]

I don’t know if you are intentionally lying, my guess is no,

I will answer you below question in your second post, but first things first. You called me a liar. I am a Christian and don't lie. Next you wondered (actually accused) me of lying intentionally. That's impossible for any born again.

What is it with you holiness people (@Hepzibah excluded), from your so called higher walk you look down on those you have branded as walking in a so called lower walk, both are not in Scripture. To use a metaphor, you people behave like Nietzsche's Übermensch, exalted yourself, feeling superior, teaching things as truth which are not always truth.

Okay, call it bad or manipulative research that you repeated, that’s perfectly fine.
So what is the acceptable amount of times to say His name, whether Savior, Christ, or the Beloved? Would it be okay if he said it 8 times? 10 times? Where’s the cutoff that you find acceptable?

 

[ProDeo]

Almost the entire book, Dark Night, deals with not paying attention to, or desiring to have, things like your experience, going into great detail about all the ways you can be deceived, whether through visions, locutions, dreams, feelings, etc.
Its literally what the book is about. Literally.
He had seen many people deceived by them and explains, even to the point of overkill, how not to be deceived.

You ignored my questions, how do you know thoughts come from God or yourself. That's the danger I see in these kind of mystical paths you enter. The title of the book is already scaring enough --> The Dark Night of the Soul

How do you know walking that mystical path everything you think, feel, experience is from God? And what if it is not? That it comes from your own mind, or is mixed at best. That, if you are a perfectionist (and many people are due to their type of upbringing, the good and the bad things deeply anchored in your soul making you, me and everybody else another unique and most complex being) the things you hear, feel, experience are just tyrannic in nature, do this, don't do that, creating great stress, but you need to be obedient else you sin. One thing for sure, the Holy Spirit is not a tyrant.

The old Greeks had a saying : Known Thyself. They understood the complexity of the soul and its Inner stirrings, workings of the mind/heart, motivations. The Bible has a much better advice :

Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
Ps 139:24 And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!

And wait for the Lord.

 

[Hepzibah]

You ignored my questions, how do you know thoughts come from God or yourself. That's the danger I see in these kind of mystical paths you enter. The title of the book is already scaring enough --> The Dark Night of the Soul

How do you know walking that mystical path everything you think, feel, experience is from God? And what if it is not? That it comes from your own mind, or is mixed at best. That, if you are a perfectionist (and many people are due to their type of upbringing, the good and the bad things deeply anchored in your soul making you, me and everybody else another unique and most complex being) the things you hear, feel, experience are just tyrannic in nature, do this, don't do that, creating great stress, but you need to be obedient else you sin. One thing for sure, the Holy Spirit is not a tyrant.

The old Greeks had a saying : Known Thyself. They understood the complexity of the soul and its Inner stirrings, workings of the mind/heart, motivations. The Bible has a much better advice :

Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
Ps 139:24 And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!

And wait for the Lord.

Those walking the mystical path in the past (there are few doing it today), would have a Spiritual Director, who would also be consulting with their own SD to avoid the danger you mentioned. This was so both in the east and west until Protestantism came along with its 'you are your own pope' attitude, that it is up to us who we follow in Bible interpretation. Or often, doing it ourselves.

Those who had passed the testings and became spiritual fathers, would write books for guidlines like JOTC, with many scriptural quotations. There is also a book War on the Saints by Jessie Penn-Lewis, who dealt with it very thoroughly, but at a much later date ie 1915ish to deal with those very problems due to the Welsh revivals of that spirituality that requires a 'second blessing'.

It is about spiritual warfare, and if you start growing in spiritual understanding, and learning the 'ladder of ascent', of course the opposite realm will be very interested, and attack.

There are those believers who got themselves into trouble by delving too far to the left, like Teresa of Avilla and the two realms became a bit mixed. Those who have entirely submitted themselves to Christ, and happy to see the flesh, the world and themselves crucified with their Saviour are less likely to go astray. But yes you are right, there is a danger.

 

[ProDeo]

Those walking the mystical path in the past (there are few doing it today), would have a Spiritual Director, who would also be consulting with their own SD to avoid the danger you mentioned. This was so both in the east and west until Protestantism came along with its 'you are your own pope' attitude, that it is up to us who we follow in Bible interpretation. Or often, doing it ourselves.

Those who had passed the testings and became spiritual fathers, would write books for guidlines like JOTC, with many scriptural quotations. There is also a book War on the Saints by Jessie Penn-Lewis, who dealt with it very thoroughly, but at a much later date ie 1915ish to deal with those very problems due to the Welsh revivals of that spirituality that requires a 'second blessing'.

It is about spiritual warfare, and if you start growing in spiritual understanding, and learning the 'ladder of ascent', of course the opposite realm will be very interested, and attack.

There are those believers who got themselves into trouble by delving too far to the left, like Teresa of Avilla and the two realms became a bit mixed. Those who have entirely submitted themselves to Christ, and happy to see the flesh, the world and themselves crucified with their Saviour are less likely to go astray. But yes you are right, there is a danger.

Thank you for being realistic.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I will answer you below question in your second post, but first things first. You called me a liar. I am a Christian and don't lie. Next you wondered (actually accused) me of lying intentionally. That's impossible for any born again.

What is it with you holiness people (@Hepzibah excluded), from your so called higher walk you look down on those you have branded as walking in a so called lower walk, both are not in Scripture. To use a metaphor, you people behave like Nietzsche's Übermensch, exalted yourself, feeling superior, teaching things as truth which are not always truth.

I said I was guessing you DIDNT do it intentionally and I then groped/surmised/guessed my way through what I thought probably happened, which you confirmed I was correct on. I am fine with you calling it whatever you want. It has obviously offended you since you need to address it again A second time. You said or repeated something that was not true. I usually call that lying but I appear to have a different definition of lying than you. If someone (whether in person or the internet), says something that is not true and is manipulative to what they want you to think and then you repeat their lie as a fact, to me, they have turned you into a liar also. If you want to call it something else, fine. I will not jump through hoops and make pretzels to use words you would like me to use that make you feel better or look better to yourself . I use the words I use. That’s all I’m going to say on it.
I do not feel superior or exalted to you, not at ALL.

 

[MostlyConfused]

You ignored my questions, how do you know thoughts come from God or yourself.

JOTC says you DONT know whether a thought comes from God or yourself, or if an experience is good or bad, and that you shouldn’t waste time trying to examine if it is from a good spirit or bad, so you ignore and don’t give attention to things like that. I agree with John. So his answer is my answer also. I had a worse, and longer, experience than you whereby I thought God had told/revealed something to me. I remained in my delusion for a few years. John goes over it extensively that even if you ARE told by God something that is true, you can misunderstand or come to a conclusion about it that is wrong. He explains, with scripture and examples from the Bible, how this is and can be so. I’m not sure if he uses this example in his book or if I recalled it as I read, but Jesus even said something to one disciple regarding another disciple and everyone interpreted it to mean that disciple wouldn’t die but they were wrong. And that was being told something directly, face to face, by Jesus!

I CAN shed a little light on what I have come to after God allowed me into His peace or covered me with it. I realized it didn’t matter that God didn’t give me instructions like, go here, go there, speak to this person, move to Texas rather than Florida. For decades I fussed over why people always said, God told me to do this, God told me to do that, but He didn’t give me instructions like that but I had to just make decisions by my own deliberation. #1, those people are most often deceived and discover it much later that they were and #2, I saw, having entered into this peace after complete surrender, that wanting the direct instruction was not walking by trust that even when I make my plans He, unbeknownst to me, is guiding my steps and doing His will. It’s a much safer way and less open to deception by my flesh or by the devil.

 

[Hepzibah]

JOTC says you DONT know whether a thought comes from God or yourself, or if an experience is good or bad, and that you shouldn’t waste time trying to examine if it is from a good spirit or bad, so you ignore and don’t give attention to things like that. I agree with John. So his answer is my answer also.

Oh yes I remember he said that and of course, if one does not have a Director, like me, it is best to ignore them. I did run into trouble once, in staying at a Reformed church after I had read the ECF's which ruined my Protestantism, and thought that God wanted me to stay and pray for the brethren there. A car crash on the way to church and a few near misses were to me comfirmation but I was wrong. I should have left. However, the suffering I went though, was used to my benefit later. Either way, God will use.

I saw, having entered into this peace after complete surrender, that wanting the direct instruction was not walking by trust that even when I make my plans He, unbeknownst to me, is guiding my steps and doing His will. It’s a much safer way and less open to deception by my flesh or by the devil.

Yes agreed.

 

[MostlyConfused]

It is about spiritual warfare, and if you start growing in spiritual understanding, and learning the 'ladder of ascent', of course the opposite realm will be very interested, and attack.

That just recently happened to me. I was used to covert attacks where he uses other people whose flesh he can stir up to do the harm and chaos he desires but I was directly assaulted as I was alone in my house for four days without human interaction of any sort. I didn’t realize it was an attack at first and I puzzled and surmised what on earth was going on with me. I was very dismayed and even had a stir of fear for a bit when I saw that he could do that to me, directly and not through a human. It didn’t reach inwardly, it was outwardly, (it had to do with food believe it or not) which brought me back to something that bothered me about Molinos, who said the body could sin but in “recollection” the spirit was not sinning, which I vehemently and viscerally disagreed with. I saw that he was sort of right but in PRACTICE he went wrong. It’s the very thing they successfully tried him over and that he recanted on. There is a vast difference with something happening TO you that you do not consent to and that deeply disturbs you and just allowing free reign to the body and thinking, I’m not sinning so it doesn’t matter.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Oh yes I remember he said that and of course, if one does not have a Director, like me, it is best to ignore them. I did run into trouble once, in staying at a Reformed church after I had read the ECF's which ruined my Protestantism, and thought that God wanted me to stay and pray for the brethren there. A car crash on the way to church and a few near misses were to me comfirmation but I was wrong. I should have left. However, the suffering I went though, was used to my benefit later. Either way, God will use.



Yes agreed.

He uses it ALL. HE turns it ALL to our good. Even when it was satan suggesting something that made us think something wrong and go a wrong direction for a while, He uses what was meant for harm to further HIS will. It takes stunned days, if not weeks, to marvel over that!

 

[MostlyConfused]

I was thinking about all the cars, drivers, crashes, near misses and they suddenly seemed to me like talking donkeys.
This is the type of thing I would have fretted about and labored over before Peace. I would have thought: oh no, God is telling me NOT to go? Oh no, maybe it’s SATAN trying to prevent me from doing what GOD wants?
It just drives home Johns’ counsel to NOT come to any conclusions or arrogantly assume you know or do not know what God is saying. Best to just make your plans as prudently as possible and ignore all that and know God is guiding your steps without you being aware of it or being consulted about it.

 

[Hepzibah]

That just recently happened to me. I was used to covert attacks where he uses other people whose flesh he can stir up to do the harm and chaos he desires but I was directly assaulted as I was alone in my house for four days without human interaction of any sort. I didn’t realize it was an attack at first and I puzzled and surmised what on earth was going on with me. I was very dismayed and even had a stir of fear for a bit when I saw that he could do that to me, directly and not through a human. It didn’t reach inwardly, it was outwardly, (it had to do with food believe it or not) which brought me back to something that bothered me about Molinos, who said the body could sin but in “recollection” the spirit was not sinning, which I vehemently and viscerally disagreed with. I saw that he was sort of right but in PRACTICE he went wrong. It’s the very thing they successfully tried him over and that he recanted on. There is a vast difference with something happening TO you that you do not consent to and that deeply disturbs you and just allowing free reign to the body and thinking, I’m not sinning so it doesn’t matter.

We always gain from these events eventually, as we are more clued up to the ways of the enemy.

I still can barely believe what happened to me at that church, a small congregation that I had been a member of for many years.

The minister tried at first to de-ECF me, after I was reading their writings for a few months, but was not succeeding. I realised there is a huge gap to summount if one has not at least partially developed the Orthodox mindset in order to understand their stance, as east and west are far apart.

Then I was called to a discipline meeting with all of the elders present, just me and them. They told me I was not respecting the elders (but would not say how) and that the pastors wife who ran the womens meeting, complained that she was scared that I would mislead the others there by mentioning what I was learning. Well that was an outright lie as I had to be prompted at the end of the meeting to add anything if I wished.

I have since found out that all of my life I have had autism and ADHD with childood trauma in the mix. That was why I hardly spoke in groups.

One of elders was even shouting at me. Another had his head down. They held a church meeting without me knowing and then told me the consensus was that I should be excommunicated. They all knew that I was elderly and chronically sick with no other social support than the church. No family.

The apostle Paul was allowed to attend his trial to defend himself but not me. I was traumatized to hear about that kangaroo trial.

That was 5 years ago and led to a complete autistic burnout which I am still trying to recover from. But I still praise God for the way He brings me through everything.

After 5 years, no-one has contacted me to see if I am okay.



The Apostle Paul

I agree with your last comment but think that there is some danger in passivity by assuming that God is guiding our steps.

I was thinking about all the cars, drivers, crashes, near misses and they suddenly seemed to me like talking donkeys.
This is the type of thing I would have fretted about and labored over before Peace. I would have thought: oh no, God is telling me NOT to go? Oh no, maybe it’s SATAN trying to prevent me from doing what GOD wants?
It just drives home Johns’ counsel to NOT come to any conclusions or arrogantly assume you know or do not know what God is saying. Best to just make your plans as prudently as possible and ignore all that and know God is guiding your steps without you being aware of it or being consulted about it.

 

[ProDeo]

JOTC says you DONT know whether a thought comes from God or yourself, or if an experience is good or bad, and that you shouldn’t waste time trying to examine if it is from a good spirit or bad, so you ignore and don’t give attention to things like that. I agree with John. So his answer is my answer also. I had a worse, and longer, experience than you whereby I thought God had told/revealed something to me. I remained in my delusion for a few years. John goes over it extensively that even if you ARE told by God something that is true, you can misunderstand or come to a conclusion about it that is wrong. He explains, with scripture and examples from the Bible, how this is and can be so. I’m not sure if he uses this example in his book or if I recalled it as I read, but Jesus even said something to one disciple regarding another disciple and everyone interpreted it to mean that disciple wouldn’t die but they were wrong. And that was being told something directly, face to face, by Jesus!

I CAN shed a little light on what I have come to after God allowed me into His peace or covered me with it. I realized it didn’t matter that God didn’t give me instructions like, go here, go there, speak to this person, move to Texas rather than Florida. For decades I fussed over why people always said, God told me to do this, God told me to do that, but He didn’t give me instructions like that but I had to just make decisions by my own deliberation. #1, those people are most often deceived and discover it much later that they were and #2, I saw, having entered into this peace after complete surrender, that wanting the direct instruction was not walking by trust that even when I make my plans He, unbeknownst to me, is guiding my steps and doing His will. It’s a much safer way and less open to deception by my flesh or by the devil.

Thanks for sharing, brings back memories of my own failure which put my faith in a dry desert for decades because I could not figure it out. A considerable part of my Christian life I resided in the Charismatic Movement and it is pretty common over there people speaking in the name of the Lord, some of them wannabe prophets and seriously harming people. I once had such a harming one and maybe that's why Paul said : Do not despise prophecies [1Thess 5:20], maybe there were wannabe prophets in his time as well. Well meaning people, but confused also.

 

[ProDeo]

We always gain from these events eventually, as we are more clued up to the ways of the enemy.

I still can barely believe what happened to me at that church, a small congregation that I had been a member of for many years.

The minister tried at first to de-ECF me, after I was reading their writings for a few months, but was not succeeding. I realised there is a huge gap to summount if one has not at least partially developed the Orthodox mindset in order to understand their stance, as east and west are far apart.

Then I was called to a discipline meeting with all of the elders present, just me and them. They told me I was not respecting the elders (but would not say how) and that the pastors wife who ran the womens meeting, complained that she was scared that I would mislead the others there by mentioning what I was learning. Well that was an outright lie as I had to be prompted at the end of the meeting to add anything if I wished.

I have since found out that all of my life I have had autism and ADHD with childood trauma in the mix. That was why I hardly spoke in groups.

One of elders was even shouting at me. Another had his head down. They held a church meeting without me knowing and then told me the consensus was that I should be excommunicated. They all knew that I was elderly and chronically sick with no other social support than the church. No family.

The apostle Paul was allowed to attend his trial to defend himself but not me. I was traumatized to hear about that kangaroo trial.

That was 5 years ago and led to a complete autistic burnout which I am still trying to recover from. But I still praise God for the way He brings me through everything.

After 5 years, no-one has contacted me to see if I am okay.



The Apostle Paul

I agree with your last comment but think that there is some danger in passivity by assuming that God is guiding our steps.

What a terrible story, I feel for you.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I agree with your last comment but think that there is some danger in passivity by assuming that God is guiding our steps.

I don’t understand what this means. I have SEEN that He was always guiding my steps, even when I wasn’t aware of it. I have SEEN that He used even my mistakes, used even attacks by people unknowingly turned into flying monkeys for satan. He uses everything, literally. He even uses satans’ intent to harm to accomplish His will and to help me. And since I have seen, I know by experience that it is true that even though a man makes his plans, God guides his steps. How can it be seen as passivity (whatever that even means I’m not sure) to have that deep trust and seeing and knowing? That’s faith, not passivity…

Also, you somewhere mentioned a book by Jessie Penn Lewis about spiritual warfare. I found it earlier this morning since I thought it might be of help to me with this new kind of attack. (When Satan becomes angry at the lack of control he had over you but has now lost, he always overplays his hand. I was confused and torpid as it began and continued a few evenings, but it’s always the overplaying that makes you stop and say, wait a minute, this is not natural, this is not an instance of my flesh, this is being DONE to me.)
Anyway, I wanted to thank you for mentioning the book. I began at chapter 10 since it seemed most relevant and it is helping me. Good morning and thanks.

 

[Hepzibah]

I don’t understand what this means. I have SEEN that He was always guiding my steps, even when I wasn’t aware of it. I have SEEN that He used even my mistakes, used even attacks by people unknowingly turned into flying monkeys for satan. He uses everything, literally. He even uses satans’ intent to harm to accomplish His will and to help me. And since I have seen, I know by experience that it is true that even though a man makes his plans, God guides his steps. How can it be seen as passivity (whatever that even means I’m not sure) to have that deep trust and seeing and knowing? That’s faith, not passivity…

Also, you somewhere mentioned a book by Jessie Penn Lewis about spiritual warfare. I found it earlier this morning since I thought it might be of help to me with this new kind of attack. (When Satan becomes angry at the lack of control he had over you but has now lost, he always overplays his hand. I was confused and torpid as it began and continued a few evenings, but it’s always the overplaying that makes you stop and say, wait a minute, this is not natural, this is not an instance of my flesh, this is being DONE to me.)
Anyway, I wanted to thank you for mentioning the book. I began at chapter 10 since it seemed most relevant and it is helping me. Good morning and thanks.

I am pleased it is helping. I should read it again as it is many years. Do you have the unabridged edition? It is preferable.

I don't think we should put ourselves in danger, even though God will bring benefit out of all of our sufferings. I don't think He guides us into situations whereby we are harmed, sometimes for life. Passivity means just walking blindly as it were like when I was in that church. The first few signs should have alerted me that it was toxic environment in which I did not need to stay.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Well I certainly agree we should not knowingly put ourselves in danger. But in this world we will not be able to escape all danger because of how satan manipulates flesh. Even growing up in a reasonably “normal” family, we come out battered and bruised.
I don’t know if it’s unabridged. If it seems a book I need to have, I will order a copy (easier on the old eyes than iPad) and take your advice on that.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Hep, how do you think it is that the angels who “left their first estate” and somehow taught women how to produce the genetically modified giants, are locked in chains and yet the one who fomented ALL of it, satan, the covert narcissist who turned angels into his flying monkeys, is allowed to roam free?

It closely follows how a human covert narcissist stirs up, manipulates and uses others to do their dirty work of attacking a person (usually because the person dared to see and point out a lie or manipulation but also sometimes just because someone won’t allow the narc and their chaotic psyche to rule over them) so they can sweetly blink their eyes as if they did nothing wrong and no one can prove they did. I’m not even sure they’re completely aware that satan turns THEM into flying monkeys and then THEY turn others into them also, while satan sits back very satisfied.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Jessie Penn Lewis:
Apart from such knowledge, when thinking he is "fighting for truth," it is possible for a believer to fight for, defend, and protect evil spirits, and their works, believing he is thereby "defending" God, and His works; for if he thinks a thing Divine, he will protect and stand for it. It is possible for a man through ignorance to stand against God and to attack the very truth of God, and also defend the devil, and oppose God, unless he has knowledge.

 

[Hepzibah]

Well I certainly agree we should not knowingly put ourselves in danger. But in this world we will not be able to escape all danger because of how satan manipulates flesh. Even growing up in a reasonably “normal” family, we come out battered and bruised.
I don’t know if it’s unabridged. If it seems a book I need to have, I will order a copy (easier on the old eyes than iPad) and take your advice on that.

I think the unabridged (for a reason) is hard to get.

I know we cannot avoid danger but should not put ourselves in a place of it especially thinking 'God will protect me'. He will only of He has sent us there - perhaps.