Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2

[amigo de christo]

Again, you are still trying to make Romans 5 say something Paul does not say. Paul writes, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life” (Romans 5:9-10).

That is plain. Paul says we are justified by His blood, reconciled to God by His death, and saved by His life. You are taking the last statement and using it to redefine the first two. Paul does not say “justified by His life blood.” He says “justified by his blood,” then immediately connects reconciliation with “the death of his Son.”

You also keep saying Romans 5:10 is about the world being reconciled to God. That is not what the verse says. Paul says, “when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.” The subject is “we,” the people he is addressing. You are inserting “the world” into Romans 5:10.

Yes, 2 Corinthians 5:19 says God was in Christ “reconciling the world unto himself.” I am not denying that. But even there Paul immediately says, “be ye reconciled to God” in verse 20. So you cannot turn the statement about the world into universal personal justification or salvation. The provision is there in Christ, but the saving benefit is received by those who are reconciled to God through faith.

Your argument from Hebrews does not prove your distinction either. Yes, Hebrews 9 is contrasting Christ’s sacrifice with the sacrifices under the law. But Hebrews does not say Christ’s shed blood concerns only some corporate category of holiness and not personal forgiveness or redemption. Hebrews 9:12 says Christ entered by His own blood, “having obtained eternal redemption for us.” Verse 14 says His blood purges the conscience from dead works. Verse 15 speaks of “the redemption of the transgressions.” Verse 26 says He appeared “to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Hebrews 10:18 then says, “Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”

So this separation you are making between Christ’s blood for “holiness” and His life for “justification” is not coming from Hebrews. You are bringing that distinction to the text and then forcing the text to fit it.

You also said, “We will each be judged for justification based on what we did.” Paul directly answers that in Romans 4:5: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 3:28 says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

Yes, Scripture teaches judgment according to works. That does not mean works become the basis of justification before God. Those are not the same thing. Works reveal and demonstrate. They do not become the ground upon which God justifies the ungodly.

And “justification of life” in Romans 5:18 does not mean “justification by resurrection life.” The verse says, “by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” You are changing “of life” into “by life,” while ignoring that Paul has already said in verse 9 that we are “justified by his blood.”

The distinction between Christ’s death and resurrection is biblical. The conclusion you are drawing from that distinction is not. Christ’s resurrection life is essential, but Paul never uses it to cancel his own statement that we are justified by Christ’s blood and reconciled to God by His death.

And calling me unlearned, dishonest, carnal, or unqualified to comment on the Bible does not answer the text. I have given you the words of Paul. You keep replacing them with your own categories.

At this point, this is not just a minor disagreement over wording. You are teaching that Christ’s shed blood does not justify the believer, that justification is based on what a person does, and that Paul’s plain words must be redefined to fit your system. That is false teaching. A man who persists in teaching contrary to the plain words of Scripture is not qualified to present himself as a teacher of biblical truth on a Christian forum.

I do pray that you repent and read what the Bible actually says instead of forcing these passages into your own system. Let us stay with what is written. We are justified by His blood, reconciled by His death, and saved by His life. That is what Romans 5:9-10 says.

Do remember that man has a massive problem with those who remind about the dire need TO BELEIVE ON HIM .
You would stagger if you knew what he , his inclusivism has taught them . THEY see things totally backwards .
Inclusivsim is one highly dangerous mindset . And it is tied directly to universalism .
JESUS IS BEING DENIED , HIS ONE TRUE GOPSEL is bEING denied by them .
I read all about inclusvism in the library and what a powerful delusion it is my friend . VERY powerful .
THEY even think and believe men like us WHO say YE MUST BELEIVE to be saved are SELF RIGHTEOUS . SELF .
and YET WE POINT TO JESUS , they POINT TO SELF and works without FAITH without BELEIF in HIM .
A V ERY POWERFUL delusion this is my friend . AND It will merge them and soon all
will beleive that all are serving the same God in differing ways . IT cannot b e s toppped IT IS THE DELUSION
and all , ALL not in the lambs book of life will beleive the lie . And they will merge and their god
will be this sensual love , this big ol path , this inclusive path to what THEY BELEIVE IS GOD . OH buT IT AINT GOD .

 

[amigo de christo]

You have a dire need to repent from your self-righteousness.

SELF . it aint me pointing to Holiness , rig hteousness , justification WITHOUT FAITH IN JESUS .
ITS YOU epi . YOU follow self and you f o llow ego . ME i follow THE ONLY ONE who can save
and can give the ability to even truly walk pleasing to GOD .
You put horse in cart .
ME , i can do nothing without Christ but fail . YET IN HIM and by HIM i can do all things .
WHERE IS your faith epi , where is your belief .
ITS IN YOU . Its in man and his own methods and his own works .
GOD is not pleased with those WHO DO NOT BELIEVE HIM . FAITH epi . For he who comes to GOD
must BELEIVE HIM epi . YOU DONT . YOU dont even think its necessary
TO BELEIVE ON THE ONE WHOM GOD TESTIFIED UPON . NO to you beleif in HIM is SELF RIG HTEOUSNESS .
SOrry epi , BUT YOU are , as i have often said , THE ONE GUILTY of what you accuse us of being .

 

[amigo de christo]

Those who have received Christ are no longer found to be sinners..........unless we keep on wilfully sinning. Which unfortunately I know is a problem in many of today's churches gone astray.

It is our old man that is a failure. Learning, experiencing and truly realizing that is part of our growth in the Lord. But our new man is made in the image of He who created it, perfect, holy and righteous......and it is by our new man that we are saved and justified.

ITs known as loving and coming to another jesus sister . WHICH IS NO JESUS .
What got israel removed from entering into the p romised land sister .
It was not that they said we dont BELIEVE IN GOD , it was that they did not BELEIVE HIM .
Many choose to follow a jesus that will speak and teach CONTRARY to the ONE TRUE CHRIST .
PROVING something . PROVING it real clear . IT was NEVER JESUS they loved or came too s ister .
Cause JESUS dont support sin and their jesus does .
THEY NEVER KNEW HIM . Many follow another jesus , which as paul would have said , IS DEADLY .
for it one cometh and preaches another gospel , yes even another jesus , ye follow such .
ONLY its gotten massively wo rse in these last hours . INCLUSIVSIM sister
IT knows how to sell to any camp and any group . IT will merge them all as one
and it wont be under GOD either . In fact soon enough its crusade phase will begin .
AND the very gospel that men like epi and others already deny
WELL they wont just accuse us , SIS TER THE MOTTO will then be , CONVERT OR DIE .
OH its coming sister . and when it do men like epi will have zero problem
with ones like us being rounded up . THE LIE grows sister and it will lead them all to the greatest crusades
as world and inclusive church are merged as one with ALL religoins . IT wont be any tolerance for those
who did not and would not conform . and it wont just be words either . IT WILL BE LAW and the law
of anti christ and of the beast and its inclusive god satan . Upon whom it will enforce the worship of it
under the phrase convert or die .

 

[Marvelloustime]

ITs known as loving and coming to another jesus sister . WHICH IS NO JESUS .
What got israel removed from entering into the p romised land sister .
It was not that they said we dont BELIEVE IN GOD , it was that they did not BELEIVE HIM .
Many choose to follow a jesus that will speak and teach CONTRARY to the ONE TRUE CHRIST .
PROVING something . PROVING it real clear . IT was NEVER JESUS they loved or came too s ister .
Cause JESUS dont support sin and their jesus does .
THEY NEVER KNEW HIM . Many follow another jesus , which as paul would have said , IS DEADLY .
for it one cometh and preaches another gospel , yes even another jesus , ye follow such .
ONLY its gotten massively wo rse in these last hours . INCLUSIVSIM sister
IT knows how to sell to any camp and any group . IT will merge them all as one
and it wont be under GOD either . In fact soon enough its crusade phase will begin .
AND the very gospel that men like epi and others already deny
WELL they wont just accuse us , SIS TER THE MOTTO will then be , CONVERT OR DIE .
OH its coming sister . and when it do men like epi will have zero problem
with ones like us being rounded up . THE LIE grows sister and it will lead them all to the greatest crusades
as world and inclusive church are merged as one with ALL religoins . IT wont be any tolerance for those
who did not and would not conform . and it wont just be words either . IT WILL BE LAW and the law
of anti christ and of the beast and its inclusive god satan . Upon whom it will enforce the worship of it
under the phrase convert or die .

@amigo de christo

 

[Lizbeth]

Oh, I just realized something. When you read “righteous” you think in your head “self righteous?”

No, it depends on what the writer or speaker means by it....whether they are talking about someone's own righteousness or the righteousness of Christ in the person (believer). I distinguish between the two....as the bible does. The difference between the old covenant and the new is that under the old, they were seeking to establish their own righteousness....the new covenant is about submitting to the righteousness of God/Christ in us....yielding to His Spirit. I consider self-righteousness to be an attitude, and believers and non-believers alike can be self-righteous...kind of a self conscious, self congratulatory thing which has its roots in pride.

 

[Lizbeth]

Oh, I just realized something. When you read “righteous” you think in your head “self righteous?”

Oh now I see why you asked.....I was borrowing and using Epi's own language loosely that he was using to accuse me of self-righteousness......to be precise I really should have said his scheme is "based on human righteousness" instead of saying it is based on self-righteousness.

 

[Episkopos]

Oh now I see why you asked.....I was borrowing and using Epi's own language loosely that he was using to accuse me of self-righteousness......to be precise I really should have said his scheme is "based on human righteousness" instead of saying it is based on self-righteousness.

The is a HUGE difference between human righteousness and self-righteousness. God imputes humans with their own righteousness...like in the case of Abraham or Job or Lot or Abel or Daniel. But some people impute righteous onto themselves when they read the bible all wrong...that is self-righteousness.
For example Job was seen by God as righteous when he only heard about God...but had never met Him.

It may seem like a subtle difference but the eternal destiny is very different.

 

[Lizbeth]

sister this is how they deceive . Pray about it . people can often talk about things concerning the walk
and yet go about it t hrough the wrong lens . as even epi does .
I whiffed new age on that lady the moment i examined her . quietism is a method , just like contemplative prayer is .
Anyone can talk about a testimony . even some can recieve the gospel with joy and yet only endure for a time .
You feel free to examine her . But i guarantee ya if you desire the TRUTH the error will make itself manifest in time for you to see it .
Spiritual discernment is real sister . And do remember that even pope francis leader of the catholic realm
EVEN said he dont follow the catholic God etc . but THAT DONT MEAN HE AINT LOST. we gotta examine things very well .

At first glance she does seem new agey, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't just an impression based on superficial things like lingo and my own associations etc. I read most of her autobiography (some of it I just skimmed), but don't seem to have the time and mental stamina to look further into her. I was wanting to try in the beginning, but I am just not being led to and I couldn't do it without the Lord....I have had no further inclination up to now.

 

[Lizbeth]

The is a HUGE difference between human righteousness and self-righteousness. God imputes humans with their own righteousness...like in the case of Abraham or Job or Lot or Abel or Daniel. But some people impute righteous onto themselves when they read the bible all wrong...that is self-righteousness.
For example Job was seen by God as righteous when he only heard about God...but had never met Him.

It may seem like a subtle difference but the eternal destiny is very different.

Job was before Christ. Believers under the new covenant have met Christ and so our starting point is on another level than the OT saints to begin with. Job serves as a pattern for us as do the other OT saints....our experience is not literally the same. Under the new covenant we have His Spirit dwelling in us now, and that was/is by faith (the genuine miraculous kind, not nominal belief).

 

[Episkopos]

Job was before Christ. Believers under the new covenant have met Christ and so our starting point is on a higher level than the OT saints to begin with, if you want to use that term (and I don't mean it in a superior attitude kind of way). Job serves as a pattern for us as do the other OT saints....our experience is not literally the same. Under the new covenant we have His Spirit dwelling in us now, and that was/is by faith (the genuine miraculous kind, not nominal belief).

So you are taking away their righteousness?

 

[MostlyConfused]

Job was before Christ. Believers under the new covenant have met Christ and so our starting point is on a higher level than the OT saints to begin with, if you want to use that term (and I don't mean it in a superior attitude kind of way). Job serves as a pattern for us as do the other OT saints....our experience is not literally the same. Under the new covenant we have His Spirit dwelling in us now, and that was/is by faith (the genuine miraculous kind, not nominal belief).

It just gets worse the more you talk. You paint yourself into bad corners.
Even an unbeliever could see and reject what you teach as hogwash. You say you start on a higher level of righteousness than all OT saints in history because you’ve been given a down payment of the Spirit. Even if you DO unrighteously in some matter, you are on a higher level than all the righteous before you and are more righteous than even an unbeliever who does righteously, even if you do unrighteously in some matter.
It’s astoundingly bad.

 

[Lizbeth]

It just gets worse the more you talk. You paint yourself into bad corners.
Even an unbeliever could see and reject what you teach as hogwash. You say you start on a higher level of righteousness than all OT saints in history because you’ve been given a down payment of the Spirit. Even if you DO unrighteously in some matter, you are on a higher level than all the righteous before you and are more righteous than even an unbeliever who does righteously, even if you do unrighteously in some matter.
It’s astoundingly bad.

An unbeliever has no faith and no Holy Spirit........these things are foolishness to the perishing....foolishness to the natural man.

It is Christ in me, the hope of glory. We start off with a new man....a new creature....new birth......new wine......the new covenant.. It is a gift and blessing that wasn't available before Christ. The OT saints had to wait until Jesus...."that they without us would not be made perfect".

 

[Lizbeth]

So you are taking away their righteousness?

Nope. God imputed/credited righteousness to them through faith.

I think possibly they attracted the favour of God prior to that through their efforts to be righteous.....and/or it's because He chose and called them.

 

[marks]

It just gets worse the more you talk. You paint yourself into bad corners.
Even an unbeliever could see and reject what you teach as hogwash. You say you start on a higher level of righteousness than all OT saints in history because you’ve been given a down payment of the Spirit. Even if you DO unrighteously in some matter, you are on a higher level than all the righteous before you and are more righteous than even an unbeliever who does righteously, even if you do unrighteously in some matter.
It’s astoundingly bad.

Um . . . unbelievers don't understand these things. But you are becoming like your mentor, in demeaning others.

Actually the righteousness that comes from God is greater than the righteousness that is by the Law:

Philippians 3:6-11 KJV
6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Matthew 11:10-11 KJV
10) For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11) Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Why is it that so many people feel the need to be demeaning to others? Isn't it enough to simply voice your view, provide Scripture support, if you have a mind to, and leave it at that? Why do so many find they need to address others in such personal and negative fashion? Is that really necessary? I don't think so.

Much love!

 

[MostlyConfused]

Um . . . unbelievers don't understand these things. But you are becoming like your mentor, in demeaning others.

I’m not demeaning her. I’m demeaning what she attempts to teach others.

 

[ProDeo]

Job was before Christ. Believers under the new covenant have met Christ and so our starting point is on a higher level than the OT saints to begin with, if you want to use that term (and I don't mean it in a superior attitude kind of way). Job serves as a pattern for us as do the other OT saints....our experience is not literally the same. Under the new covenant we have His Spirit dwelling in us now, and that was/is by faith (the genuine miraculous kind, not nominal belief).

I would not put it that way, King David said - Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. [Ps 51:11]. The prophets spoke by the Holy Spirit, some of the common OT people also. It's why Peter is so excited on Pentecost day because he understood the Holy Spirit was now for all flesh, with reference to Joel 2:28

 

[amigo de christo]

At first glance she does seem new agey, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't just an impression based on superficial things like lingo and my own associations etc. I read most of her autobiography (some of it I just skimmed), but don't seem to have the time and mental stamina to look further into her. I was wanting to try in the beginning, but I am just not being led to and I couldn't do it without the Lord....I have had no further inclination up to now.

well you dont need too dear sister . let us focus on the glorious Lord and biblical doctrine .

 

[amigo de christo]

Nope. God imputed/credited righteousness to them through faith.

I think possibly they attracted the favour of God prior to that through their efforts to be righteous.....and/or it's because He chose and called them.

correct that GOD sure did impute righteousness to them t hrough faith .
The key that is always pleasing to GOD is that we BELIEVE HIM .
Unbeleivers are unbelievers and ev en those who claimed to know GOD yet did not beleive Him
had no faith . The key is WHO do we BELEIVE . will it be man who t wists His words , tries even to omit his gospel
OR is it GOD , is it HIS CHRIST , it is HIS WORDS we beleive .
And it was long ago written in even the prophets that the JUST shall live BY FAITH .
IT was always FAITH that pleased GOD . And it always will be faith that pleases HIM .
Obviously we got some folks here that DONT BELEIVE THE WORDS of JESUS and OF GOD .
But we beleive HIM sister . And without HIM We know we can do nothing . Our hope and our trust be IN HIM
and not in our selves and our own works but IN HIM . that b e the KEY right there .
DO we beleive HIS words or does one omit and twist them .
The twisters of HIS words are calling GOD a liar . THE believer of His words calleth GOD TRUE .
Something HIC knows nothing about . WHY did paul by the POWER of that ONE T RUE HOLY SPIRIT
blind elaymus . Elaymus was trying to keep the deputy FROM THE FAITH .
And i think others HERE are doing JUST THAT . TRYING to make the FAITH , THE BELEIF , V OID .
That would have earned one a blinding by paul . The FAITH is not something any one should dare
try and lead anyone away from at all . And yet our HIC does just that . RAILS on those who preach THE FAITH
the DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE on JESUS . Epi has zero idea the danger he is in sister . And i mean deadly danger too .

 

[amigo de christo]

I would not put it that way, King David said - Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. [Ps 51:11]. The prophets spoke by the Holy Spirit, some of the common OT people also. It's why Peter is so excited on Pentecost day because he understood the Holy Spirit was now for all flesh, with reference to Joel 2:28

I shudder in total terror for anyone who uses the name of JESUS and plays as though they christain
and only use his words to make FAITH VOID . And i promise us all we got a few doing that HERE and NOW .
what are they gonna say ON JESUS day . Oh LORD we claimed to beleive you . And HE will say
THEN WHY DID YOU RAIL on those who preached about the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON ME and followed inclusivism .
Someone on this site has zero idea the upmost deadly danger they are in my friend .
Now paul had a man blinded for trying to lead the deputy away FROM THE FAITH . His name was elaymus .
And i sure can see another HERE doing just that . LEADING or trying to lead this people away FROM THE FAITH .
That wont bode well for such a person at all .

 

[Lizbeth]

I would not put it that way, King David said - Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. [Ps 51:11]. The prophets spoke by the Holy Spirit, some of the common OT people also. It's why Peter is so excited on Pentecost day because he understood the Holy Spirit was for all flesh, with reference to Joel 2:28

Yes, the Holy Spirit was there I agree....but there is this scripture that leads me to think He could be "with" people, but not "in" them until after Christ and Pentecost:

Jhn 14:16-17

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.