WATCH!

[The Light]

If the sixth seal is the coming of Jesus...Rev 19 19:11-21 what do the first 5 seal represent?

This is exactly why I was trying to get you to tell me where you thought that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 was located in Revelation.
From your response above you are telling me that you think the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is found in Revelation 19.

THIS IS NOT CORRECT.

From the verses below we can determine several things. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION, which is the great tribulation. Those exact signs occur at the 6th seal.

When you are reading Rev 6 and you are reading about the 6th seal, you don't see that Jesus comes at the 6th seal. However, He does. You need to apply DEDUCTIVE REASONING. This is an eighth-grade word problem.

What can we determine happens when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

1. The great tribulation is over.
2. The sixth seal is opened.
3. Most importantly, Jesus returns with His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth.
4. Jesus is seen by all. It is the second coming.


Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

So in conclusion. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus sends His angels for a harvest, the second harvest. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. This second rapture is the 12 tribes across the earth. Then the 7th seal is opened and Gods wrath is on the earth for ONE YEAR. The great multitude is in heaven during the one year wrath of God. At the end of wrath, Jesus returns with the armies of heaven for the Day of the Lord and Armageddon.

 

[CrowCross]

This is exactly why I was trying to get you to tell me where you thought that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 was located in Revelation.
From your response above you are telling me that you think the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is found in Revelation 19.

THIS IS NOT CORRECT.

From the verses below we can determine several things. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION, which is the great tribulation. Those exact signs occur at the 6th seal.

When you are reading Rev 6 and you are reading about the 6th seal, you don't see that Jesus comes at the 6th seal. However, He does. You need to apply DEDUCTIVE REASONING. This is an eighth-grade word problem.

What can we determine happens when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

1. The great tribulation is over.
2. The sixth seal is opened.
3. Most importantly, Jesus returns with His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth.
4. Jesus is seen by all. It is the second coming.


Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

So in conclusion. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus sends His angels for a harvest, the second harvest. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. This second rapture is the 12 tribes across the earth. Then the 7th seal is opened and Gods wrath is on the earth for ONE YEAR. The great multitude is in heaven during the one year wrath of God. At the end of wrath, Jesus returns with the armies of heaven for the Day of the Lord and Armageddon.

Not quite...

There is a difference between the moon not giving light and becoming as blood.

There is the possible of the sun and moon being blocked by...smoke, ashes whatever....and the sun going...out.

In verse 13 we know that the physical literal stars don't fall to earth....So, what are the stars? Asteroids? Satellites? Missiles? Angelic beings?

But, considering you drew a correlation between the sixth seal and Christ return...what do the other seals correlate to?

 

[The Light]

Not quite...

There is a difference between the moon not giving light and becoming as blood.

Jesus tells us in scripture that the moon will not give her light.

John has a vision and sees the moon as blood.

They are talking about the exact same event. During a lunar eclipse two things happen. The moon does not give its light, and it also turns blood. Go watch a lunar eclipse on you tube.

In verse 13 we know that the physical literal stars don't fall to earth....So, what are the stars? Asteroids? Satellites? Missiles? Angelic beings?

There is war in heaven. The stars falling to the earth like untimely figs are the fallen angels being cast to the earth.

Both Jesus and John tell us the stars fall from heaven.

But, considering you drew a correlation between the sixth seal and Christ return...what do the other seals correlate to?

The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24

Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24.
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24

Jesus does not tell us about the 7th seal in Matthew 24. It is the wrath of God.
In Luke 21 Jesus says we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

 

[Davy]

News flash.
If it is Michael, I am fine with it.
If it is the Holy Spirit. I am fine with it.
If it is the church i am fine with it.

If you see my 8 or 11 VERSES proving a pretrib rapture ( of course i do not stray into your false belief of "one coming" a 6 yr old could debunk ), then the"point" you think you are making is plain ignorant.

So I am not a "pivoter" trying to pivot off of one verse.

You are desperately needing a smoking gun.
Sorry but you failed again.
Part of your circular error is the hatred and disdain you have for anyone challenging your many many errors.
Thankfully we have the pure beautiful word of God.
.....that I continually force you to cast down.
Sad.

Pssst....look up "intercessor".
That is the MINISTRY OF THE CHURCH.
AHEM...RESTAINING EVIL, CALAMITY, ACCIDENTS, ..AND ...DRUM ROLL....THE DEVIL.
UH..."THE RESTRAINER"

But make it what you need it to be.
That dynamic "the restrainer" does not help your doctrine at all, and even though it testifies against your theory of a postrib rapture, I have never incorporated it into some pivot point, or some "hoped for", "smoking gun".

See that's the difference, you need tons of verses cast down.
I need none cast down, as "your verses" are misused, and easily shown to be pointing elsewhere from your theory.

You need some Jesus time to melt your hatred out.

All that above rhetoric is unnecessary, since Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 that His coming to gather the Church is AFTER... the tribulation.

 

[Davy]

The Church are the kings and priests from Rev 5 that are redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

The 24 elders do not receive their 'crowns' until everyone else does. The rewards are at the same time when Jesus comes. That means those Revelation 4 & 5 Scriptures are future tense, for after Christ's future return.

The seals are not opened yet and will not be opened until the Church is in heaven. He comes when you think not, just as He says.

The opening of the seals of Revelation 6 is a different subject. Its purpose is to reveal more of the same 7 SIGNS that Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

 

[The Light]

The 24 elders do not receive their 'crowns' until everyone else does. The rewards are at the same time when Jesus comes. That means those Revelation 4 & 5 Scriptures are future tense, for after Christ's future return.

Jesus comes for His Church in the rapture before the great tribulation. The seals are not opened until the Church is in heaven.

Is that the best excuse you can come up with. It all a mirage.............

The opening of the seals of Revelation 6 is a different subject. Its purpose is to reveal more of the same 7 SIGNS that Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows of Matthew 24.
The fifth seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24.
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.
Jesus does not speak of the 7th seal wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

All that above rhetoric is unnecessary, since Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 that His coming to gather the Church is AFTER... the tribulation.

That's not the Church being raptured in Matthew 24. The Church is already in heaven as we can see in Rev 5.

Jesus is coming for the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman Israel at the 6th seal. The Church comes with the Lord from heaven. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7.

Here is another view of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

[Davy]

Jesus comes for His Church in the rapture before the great tribulation. The seals are not opened until the Church is in heaven.

Which that is a DOCTRINE FROM MEN, from the false pre-trib rapture school.

Rev 4:4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
KJV

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

That is FUTURE TENSE, after Christ's future return. The "song" those are singing is the "new song before the throne" (Rev.14), which is the Song of Moses mentioned in Revelation 15. That is for AFTER... Christ having returned.

About the Old Testament Patriarchs and Christ's Apostles, i.e., the 24 elders in Heaven...

Heb 11:37-40
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
KJV

That they without... us (Christ's Church), should not be made perfect? Yes, meaning the 24 elders don't receive their white apparel and gold crowns without us. Christ's rewards are handed out AFTER His future return, not before.

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

 

[Davy]

That's not the Church being raptured in Matthew 24.

Not only are those disciples with Jesus on the Mount of Olives part of His Church, they were part of the VERY FOUNDATION OF THE EARLY CHURCH...

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV


I really do hope for you, that you come out of that false pre-trib rapture doctrine from men. Our Heavenly Father does not like that doctrine, even as He showed through His prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 13 that He is against those who teach His people to fly to save their souls. (God sometimes put more detail back in The Old Testament Books about the end of this world.)


God spoke this through His prophet Ezekiel who was sent to the "house of Israel", which means the ten scattered tribes of Israel that He scattered among the Gentiles, and they became the "multitude of nations" of Genesis 48, and thus were the founders of the historical western Christian nations. These preachers among His people God did not call or ordain; they do their own 'thang', and He doesn't like them teaching His people lies to FLY to save their souls...

Ezek 13:19-23
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

On that day of Christ's future return, those preachers whom God did not call pushing that false pre-trib rapture junk will then know that He is The LORD.

 

[The Light]

Which that is a DOCTRINE FROM MEN, from the false pre-trib rapture school.

Yes, from Jesus, Paul and John.

That is FUTURE TENSE, after Christ's future return.

The scriptures show that Christ has returned before the seals are opened.

The "song" those are singing is the "new song before the throne" (Rev.14), which is the Song of Moses mentioned in Revelation 15. That is for AFTER... Christ having returned.

Those singing the song of Moses are Jews. Thats because there is a rapture at the 6th seal..........immediately after the tribulation of those days. The 144,000 from 12 tribes are first fruits of this harvest.

That they without... us (Christ's Church), should not be made perfect? Yes, meaning the 24 elders don't receive their white apparel and gold crowns without us. Christ's rewards are handed out AFTER His future return, not before.

EXACTLY. The gold crowns on the 24 elders are PROOF that Christ has returned. The kings and priests redeemed from the earth out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation is proof that the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

This occurs at the end of the wrath of God. The Church is in heaven before the great tribulation. The twelve tribes across the earth are in heaven at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation. Then there is ONE YEAR, the day of vengeance on the earth while the great multitude is in heaven.

 

[The Light]

I really do hope for you, that you come out of that false pre-trib rapture doctrine from men. Our Heavenly Father does not like that doctrine, even as He showed through His prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 13 that He is against those who teach His people to fly to save their souls. (God sometimes put more detail back in The Old Testament Books about the end of this world.)

You have no idea what you are talking about.

How come Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation and sends His angels to gather people? Wouldn't Jesus come before the tribulation was over for Armageddon. Why is He coming after the tribulation.............in your view?

On that day of Christ's future return, those preachers whom God did not call pushing that false pre-trib rapture junk will then know that He is The LORD.

When the Lord comes for His bride, I hope you are not among the foolish virgins. The wise are watching and ready for the coming of the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

The scriptures show that Christ has returned before the seals are opened.

How then can he return at the 6th seal as you believe?

 

[markalan]

This is exactly why I was trying to get you to tell me where you thought that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 was located in Revelation.
From your response above you are telling me that you think the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is found in Revelation 19.

THIS IS NOT CORRECT.

From the verses below we can determine several things. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION, which is the great tribulation. Those exact signs occur at the 6th seal.

When you are reading Rev 6 and you are reading about the 6th seal, you don't see that Jesus comes at the 6th seal. However, He does. You need to apply DEDUCTIVE REASONING. This is an eighth-grade word problem.

What can we determine happens when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

1. The great tribulation is over.
2. The sixth seal is opened.
3. Most importantly, Jesus returns with His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth.
4. Jesus is seen by all. It is the second coming.


Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

So in conclusion. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus sends His angels for a harvest, the second harvest. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. This second rapture is the 12 tribes across the earth. Then the 7th seal is opened and Gods wrath is on the earth for ONE YEAR. The great multitude is in heaven during the one year wrath of God. At the end of wrath, Jesus returns with the armies of heaven for the Day of the Lord and Armageddon.

Have you considered comparing all the Bible passages that mention the sun, the moon and the stars to see if that gives insight into how these objects are being used?

 

[Davy]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Yes I do know what I'm talking about, because I'm keeping to the Bible Scripture, while you instead are putting your trust in the pre-trib rapture theory preachers. Maybe you think it is they that can save you.

How come Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation and sends His angels to gather people? Wouldn't Jesus come before the tribulation was over for Armageddon. Why is He coming after the tribulation.............in your view?

That Lord Jesus comes AFTER... the tribulation, IS NOT MY VIEW. It is what Lord Jesus Himself said (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27). And that's your problem, you cannot distinguish between God's Word as written and what your preachers tell you The Bible says. And the pre-trib rapture preachers are lying against God's written Word.

When the Lord comes for His bride, I hope you are not among the foolish virgins. The wise are watching and ready for the coming of the Lord.

You don't need to be concerned about me when Lord Jesus comes, but instead about yourself and those with you on men's false pre-trib rapture doctrines.

The Antichrist comes first, like Lord Jesus, Apostles Paul and John showed. And that is who the false pre-trib rapture preachers are preparing you to fly away to. Those of us who remain faithful in Christ will be left-behind and NOT TAKEN as you will be, unless you repent and come out of Babylon.

 

[rebuilder 454]

IMO...I believe all christians will be taken in the pre-trib rapture.

I don't necessarily think the post tribbers are awaiting a false Christ...I think they just don't understand the timeline.

They are, without a doubt, waiting for the false Christ, plus denying the arrival of Christ until AFTER , their expectation of the fake Christ.
In fact, mocking pretribbers FOR WAITING FOR JESUS, is part of their doctrine.

The Christian walk is a walk of faith.
Postribbers have huge faith in their doctrine of waiting for the AC....NOT Jesus.
They defend it with passion.
They will receive it ACCORDING TO their faith.
The 5 foolish virgins

 

[rebuilder 454]

IMO...I believe all christians will be taken in the pre-trib rapture.

I don't necessarily think the post tribbers are awaiting a false Christ...I think they just don't understand the timeline.

Jesus gives the percentage of his church that goes, and the percentage that stays, in mat 24 and 25.
He gives it twice, almost in the same breath.
Once you understand what the rapture is, Jesus words make sense.

That is why most everyone here changes the parable of the virgins.
They need to to fit a human mind, of misunderstanding.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus tells us in scripture that the moon will not give her light.

John has a vision and sees the moon as blood.

They are talking about the exact same event. During a lunar eclipse two things happen. The moon does not give its light, and it also turns blood. Go watch a lunar eclipse on you tube.

What happens to the sun when this is happening?

There is war in heaven. The stars falling to the earth like untimely figs are the fallen angels being cast to the earth.

Both Jesus and John tell us the stars fall from heaven.

The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24

Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24.
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24

Jesus does not tell us about the 7th seal in Matthew 24. It is the wrath of God.
In Luke 21 Jesus says we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

I looked but didn't see your connection.

 

[CrowCross]

All that above rhetoric is unnecessary, since Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 that His coming to gather the Church is AFTER... the tribulation.

2 Thes 2 clearly demonstrates a pre-trib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

When we pray the command of Jesus, for he said; " to pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the thing that are about to come upon the Earth and Stand before the son of man."
When we pray that, we are establishing before God and man, where we are placing our faith.
If we have faith that Jesus is not coming, then God will honor that faith (if we have faith that Jesus is coming as it's clearly written in his word). He will honor that faith.
The Bible ends with the cry of the holy remnant, the bride of Christ, calling out to Jesus, "maranatha... Come Lord, Jesus" and the Bible says, in that passage, "the spirit is also calling out for Jesus to come"... right alongside of us that believe he is coming.

Postribbers have a much different prayer.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Now why would we need to pray that?
It is not a fact that the Church sits on the sidelines thinking because they accepted salvation they are exempted from being found unworthy.
Jesus is telling his own flock to pray that.

The rapture is the worthy saints gathered.
The bride gathered by the groom.