Satan has been tricking Christan's into believing an escape through a pretrib rapture for a very long time
Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ
- Thread starter Scott Downey
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The Light
Well-Known Member
The Light
Well-Known Member
And Jesus has something to say about this escape also.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Mathew 15
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
Jesus first fold was national Israel, the other fold of His are the Gentiles, now they are one fold the church
That was the escape that the Christians did when the Romas surrounded Jerusalem in 70AD
Luke 21
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming <3952 parousia> is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
If parousia is never an invisible event, is the parousia of the lawless one a physical event that can be seen literally?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That sums up the pre-trib rapture doctrine. It's based on wild speculation and not on scripture.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Revelation 11:11-13 is not part of the second woe. The second woe correlates with the sixth trumpet which is described in Revelation 9:13-21. Revelation 10 and Revelation 11:1-13 are parenthetical passages. Then, after Revelation 11:14 says that the second woe is past, it picks up with describing the third woe/seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It doesn't exist. There is "one body" of Christ consisting of all believers past and present and all future believers will be part of the "one body", also.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You couldn't be more wrong. Jesus was talking to and about the Jews when He spoke of the first fold. His other fold is the Gentiles. Jesus said "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24). That's the first fold. His other fold, the Gentiles, would have the gospel preached to them after it was first preached to the people of Israel.
This is not the first time I have heard you say that. And it never makes any sense to me what you are meaning to begin with, no matter how many times you repeat it. And the reason why, note the following texts. We can't divorce any of it from any of it.
Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Let's start with verse 12 and insert your view into the text in order to see if the text is making sense or nonsense.
And they(symbolic for the Law and the Prophets)heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them(symbolic for the Law and the Prophets), Come up hither. And they(symbolic for the Law and the Prophets) ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their(symbolic for the Law and the Prophets) enemies beheld them(symbolic for the Law and the Prophets).
And the same hour(meaning the same hour verse 12 is fulfilled) was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven(because of the great earthquake they had just witnessed and experienced which appears to be connected with verse 12, that maybe verse 13 is the aftermath, so to speak).
What all verse 12 and 13 might look like when being fulfilled, that I can't tell you. But what I can tell you, regardless whether the 2Ws mean only 2 literally, or maybe hundreds or even thousands, they are meaning humans.
Since it is only humans that can die then need to be raised from the dead in order to be alive again. For example, angels can't die, therefore, the 2Ws can't be angels.
symbolic for the Law and the Prophets, whatever that means, is that something that can die then needs to be made alive again?
Per your view you have the 'symbolic for the Law and the Prophets' prophesying for 1260 days, then being made war against and then killed, then dead for 3 and 1/2 days, then rising from the dead, then ascending into heaven. And that some of the rest of us are to somehow make sense out of that??????????
Apparently, your post made perfect sense to @Scott Downey since he rated that post with a Like. But then look at his post that he submitted to me. I can't even make sense out of some of that either. He seems to think the literal city of Jerusalem is where the 6th trumpet events are taking place. Maybe the fire that comes out of their mouth is literal as well? Right?
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Doesn’t what happens to them sound familiar?
They mirror Jesus life, they point to Him
Does this mean you are meaning literal ppl that live then die, then are raised from the dead and live again? If you are meaning in that sense, in that case I can see your view making sense. The way you phrase it is misleading if you are ultimately meaning something else by that, other than what it sounds like.
No I believe that they are symbolic of the law and the prophets that pointed to Jesus and what happens to them symbolically in Revelation is what happened to Jesus in real life
As Jesus said, The law and the prophets are all Israel needed to see who Jesus is. As mentioned in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus no more will be given to Israel and Jesus won’t send anyone back from the dead because apostate Israel didn’t believe in Jesus when He came back from the dead
The Light
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus was sent to the Jews.........but they would not be gathered. They are NOT the first fold.
Matthew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
The Jews were supposed to be the first harvest as God saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest of the fig tree at her first time. But they served Baalpeor and would not be the first harvest.
Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
The Gentiles become the first harvest as the fathers of the Jews would NOT be the firstfruits of the first harvest. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest.
Each man in his order. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming. After the Lord comes for the Church, it begins again. First fruits (144,000 from 12 tribes) and then they that are Christs at His coming at the 6th seal.
Finally I understand, but even so, when comparing it with the texts involved I don't see it making much sense. Because it has to fit the texts involved somehow and the texts involve prophesying, being persecuted then killed, then rising from the dead, then ascending into heaven, and then during that exact same hour a great earthquake erupts and what all that leads to at the time. You seem to be suggesting no literal events are meant whatsoever. No one literally being persecuted and killed. No one literally rising from the dead and ascending into heaven after they have been killed, and their enemies beholding this. No literal great earthquake and what all that leads to, such as the remnant were scared senseless, thus repented and gave glory to God. That it's all just parables or something.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
That's strange, because you just revealed a Post-tribulational coming by Christ and gathering of ALL His Church by that John 10 Scripture! and what is sad, is that you aren't even aware that you did that.
Per 1 Thess.4:13-16, Jesus when He DESCENDS TO EARTH brings the asleep saints which died in Christ with Him from heaven when He comes, as they are resurrected first.
Per 1 Thess.4:17, at that SAME TIME, the saints still alive on earth on that day will be "caught up" to Jesus and the resurrected saints in the "clouds" in the "air", with that being ON HIS WAY TO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES IN JERUSALEM, per Zechariah 14.
re Only one rapture of all the saints
Do you believe that the 1 Thess 4:17 rapture/catching up/rapiemur/harpazo includes King David & other OT saints ?
Actually, yes—the parousia (arrival/presence) of the lawless one is entirely public, marked by overt 'signs and lying wonders' that the whole world witnesses (2 Thessalonians 2:9). More importantly, whenever Paul or Jesus describes the Parousia of Christ, they don't leave it to a hidden definition; they attach public, earsplitting markers like a trumpet blast, a shout of command, and every eye seeing Him in flaming fire.
You can't use the word's neutral meaning of 'arrival' to sneak an invisible, multi-stage rapture past texts that explicitly demand it be loud, visible, and universal."
1. The "Parousia" of the Antichrist Is Completely Public and Visible
- The Context of 2 Thessalonians 2:9: Paul says the coming (parousia) of the lawless one is accompanied by "all power and signs and lying wonders."
- The Flaw : Trying to imply that parousia can mean a hidden, stealthy, invisible event because the Antichrist arrives deceptively. But an individual performing massive public "signs, powers, and lying wonders" on a global stage is not invisible or secret—everyone sees him, hears him, and is deceived by his overt public spectacle! The word parousia simply means presence, arrival, or coming, whether applied to Christ or a false leader. Both arrivals are manifest and observable.
2. Context Defines the Modality, But Christ’s Parousia Has Explicit Noise and Glory
- While parousia fundamentally means "presence" or "arrival," whenever the New Testament describes the Parousia of Christ, it deliberately stacks it with sensory, undeniable descriptors that rule out a quiet, secret snatching away:
- It happens with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
- He is revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengeance (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8).
- Every eye will see Him (Revelation 1:7).
Further, this is witnessed by the whole world
Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:22
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
That is a direct hit to your comparison. Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22 explicitly state that the false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders that are seen and experienced globally to deceive people.
This completely pulls the rug out from under your attempt to use 2 Thessalonians 2:9 to prove an "invisible" or hidden arrival.
Why This Comparison Fails:
- Public Spectacle vs. Secret Event: The arrival (parousia) of the lawless one and his false prophets involves overt, highly visible signs and wonders that captivate the world. It is a public deception, not a secret, silent operation.
- Your Proving My Point: And accidentally helped prove my argument: whenever Scripture uses parousia—whether for the Antichrist, false prophets, or Christ Himself—the event is accompanied by massive, unmistakable, public phenomena that people actually witness.
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