Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[Scott Downey]

1. The Greek Word for "Coming" (Parousia) Does Not Allow an "Invisible" Return​

Pre-trib and mid-trib theories often rely on dividing Christ's return into two phases: a quiet, secret, or "invisible" coming for the church, followed later by a public, visible "Second Coming" in judgment.

• The Problem: The New Testament uses the word Parousia (presence/arrival) for Christ's return, and it consistently describes it as loud, visible, and unmistakable.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explicitly says He descends with a "cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God." That is the exact opposite of quiet or invisible.
• Furthermore, Revelation 1:7 declares: "Behold, every eye will see him, even those who pierced him..." There is no biblical category for a secret, invisible extraction of believers where the rest of the world misses the event entirely.

2. The "Last Trumpet" Destroys a Mid-Trib or Pre-Trib Timeline​

Paul specifically anchors the resurrection and transformation of living believers to a very specific chronological marker: the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

• If a group of believers is raptured mid-tribulation, and another group is raptured at the end of the tribulation (at the visible Second Coming), how can there be a "last" trumpet for the second group?
• If trumpets are still sounding for a subsequent gathering of "tribulation saints" years later, the first trumpet wasn't the last one. Paul uses "last" to signify the final punctuation mark of human history, leaving no room for a repeat performance.

3. The New Testament Knows Only One "Gathering Together"​

When Paul addresses the exact concern of believers being confused about the timing of being gathered to Christ, he explicitly ties it to one major event.

• In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3, Paul begs the church not to be shaken by the idea that the Day of the Lord has already come, reminding them that the gathering together to Christ will not happen until the "man of lawlessness" is revealed. He treats the gathering and the revelation of Christ as a single, simultaneous event, not split across two separate timelines years apart.

4. Where Does Scripture Invent "Tribulation Saints" Separated from the Church?​

The idea that God has two separate groups of redeemed people with two entirely different destiny timelines—one body raptured early, and another group of "tribulation saints" caught up later—violates the core New Testament unity of the Body of Christ.

• Paul states in Ephesians 4:4–5 that there is "one body and one Spirit... one hope to which you were called."
• Splitting the redeemed into separate classes with separate extraction dates turns the "one hope" into two entirely different hopes.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - New King James Version

The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first...

www.biblegateway.com

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. ​

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. ​

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. ​

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. ​

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. ​

26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. ​

27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. ​

28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.​

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

The Order (Tagma) Leaves No Room for Multiple Exits​

• Verse 23: Paul specifies the exact order: "Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming."
• The Greek word used here for "order" or "rank" (tagma) implies a structured sequence. But notice how short and direct that sequence is: Christ (the firstfruits) afterward, those who belong to Christ at His coming.
• There is no middle category, no separate tier of "tribulation saints" pulled out years earlier, and no hidden intermediate phase. Everyone who belongs to Christ is accounted for in a single group at His coming.

The Climax is "The End" (Telos), Not a Mid-Point Escape​

• Verse 24: "Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father..."
• Paul says that when those who belong to Christ are made alive at His coming, then comes the end. The coming of Christ and the resurrection of His people mark the absolute wrap-up of human history as we know it—when all rule, authority, and power are subdued, and death (the final enemy) is destroyed (v. 25–26).
• If a multi-rapture/mid-trib theory were true, Christ's coming wouldn't bring "the end" or destroy death; it would just trigger another multi-year phase of earthly chaos, rule, and death for a brand-new class of saints. Paul leaves zero room for that narrative.

 

[Marty fox]

1. The Greek Word for "Coming" (Parousia) Does Not Allow an "Invisible" Return​

Pre-trib and mid-trib theories often rely on dividing Christ's return into two phases: a quiet, secret, or "invisible" coming for the church, followed later by a public, visible "Second Coming" in judgment.

• The Problem: The New Testament uses the word Parousia (presence/arrival) for Christ's return, and it consistently describes it as loud, visible, and unmistakable.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explicitly says He descends with a "cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God." That is the exact opposite of quiet or invisible.
• Furthermore, Revelation 1:7 declares: "Behold, every eye will see him, even those who pierced him..." There is no biblical category for a secret, invisible extraction of believers where the rest of the world misses the event entirely.

2. The "Last Trumpet" Destroys a Mid-Trib or Pre-Trib Timeline​

Paul specifically anchors the resurrection and transformation of living believers to a very specific chronological marker: the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

• If a group of believers is raptured mid-tribulation, and another group is raptured at the end of the tribulation (at the visible Second Coming), how can there be a "last" trumpet for the second group?
• If trumpets are still sounding for a subsequent gathering of "tribulation saints" years later, the first trumpet wasn't the last one. Paul uses "last" to signify the final punctuation mark of human history, leaving no room for a repeat performance.

3. The New Testament Knows Only One "Gathering Together"​

When Paul addresses the exact concern of believers being confused about the timing of being gathered to Christ, he explicitly ties it to one major event.

• In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3, Paul begs the church not to be shaken by the idea that the Day of the Lord has already come, reminding them that the gathering together to Christ will not happen until the "man of lawlessness" is revealed. He treats the gathering and the revelation of Christ as a single, simultaneous event, not split across two separate timelines years apart.

4. Where Does Scripture Invent "Tribulation Saints" Separated from the Church?​

The idea that God has two separate groups of redeemed people with two entirely different destiny timelines—one body raptured early, and another group of "tribulation saints" caught up later—violates the core New Testament unity of the Body of Christ.

• Paul states in Ephesians 4:4–5 that there is "one body and one Spirit... one hope to which you were called."
• Splitting the redeemed into separate classes with separate extraction dates turns the "one hope" into two entirely different hopes.

To add to this the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation and the seventh trumpet is at the end of our world on the judgement day

Revelation 11:15-19​

The Seventh Trumpet​

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

[ScottA]

1. The Greek Word for "Coming" (Parousia) Does Not Allow an "Invisible" Return

Jesus speaking, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation" Luke 17:20

So much for Greek language.

 

[The Light]

1. The Greek Word for "Coming" (Parousia) Does Not Allow an "Invisible" Return​

Pre-trib and mid-trib theories often rely on dividing Christ's return into two phases: a quiet, secret, or "invisible" coming for the church, followed later by a public, visible "Second Coming" in judgment.

• The Problem: The New Testament uses the word Parousia (presence/arrival) for Christ's return, and it consistently describes it as loud, visible, and unmistakable.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explicitly says He descends with a "cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God." That is the exact opposite of quiet or invisible.
• Furthermore, Revelation 1:7 declares: "Behold, every eye will see him, even those who pierced him..." There is no biblical category for a secret, invisible extraction of believers where the rest of the world misses the event entirely.

He comes one time for the Church in the secret rapture. Why do you think the story of alien abductions is common?

He comes for the 12 tribes across earth, the seed of the woman, Israel. Why do you think there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest.

Two raptures.

2. The "Last Trumpet" Destroys a Mid-Trib or Pre-Trib Timeline​

Paul specifically anchors the resurrection and transformation of living believers to a very specific chronological marker: the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

• If a group of believers is raptured mid-tribulation, and another group is raptured at the end of the tribulation (at the visible Second Coming), how can there be a "last" trumpet for the second group?
• If trumpets are still sounding for a subsequent gathering of "tribulation saints" years later, the first trumpet wasn't the last one. Paul uses "last" to signify the final punctuation mark of human history, leaving no room for a repeat performance.

The Lord Himself comes for His bride before the seals are opened at the trump of God of voice of God.

The Lord sends His angels when He comes immediately after the tribulation of those days. This happens at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets.

Two raptures.

3. The New Testament Knows Only One "Gathering Together"​

When Paul addresses the exact concern of believers being confused about the timing of being gathered to Christ, he explicitly ties it to one major event.

• In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3, Paul begs the church not to be shaken by the idea that the Day of the Lord has already come, reminding them that the gathering together to Christ will not happen until the "man of lawlessness" is revealed. He treats the gathering and the revelation of Christ as a single, simultaneous event, not split across two separate timelines years apart.

There is only one gathering. It is the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal.

The Church is gathered from heaven where they were raptured before the great tribulation. The 12 tribes, the seed of the woman Israel are gathered for the earth BEFORE the wrath of God.

4. Where Does Scripture Invent "Tribulation Saints" Separated from the Church?​

The idea that God has two separate groups of redeemed people with two entirely different destiny timelines—one body raptured early, and another group of "tribulation saints" caught up later—violates the core New Testament unity of the Body of Christ.

• Paul states in Ephesians 4:4–5 that there is "one body and one Spirit... one hope to which you were called."
• Splitting the redeemed into separate classes with separate extraction dates turns the "one hope" into two entirely different hopes.

The saints which go through the tribulation are mostly of the 12 tribes according to scripture.

The FACT that there are two raptures destroys your arguments.

 

[Marty fox]

He comes one time for the Church in the secret rapture. Why do you think the story of alien abductions is common?

He comes for the 12 tribes across earth, the seed of the woman, Israel. Why do you think there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest.

Two raptures.

The Lord Himself comes for His bride before the seals are opened at the trump of God of voice of God.

The Lord sends His angels when He comes immediately after the tribulation of those days. This happens at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets.

Two raptures.



There is only one gathering. It is the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal.

The Church is gathered from heaven where they were raptured before the great tribulation. The 12 tribes, the seed of the woman Israel are gathered for the earth BEFORE the wrath of God.

The saints which go through the tribulation are mostly of the 12 tribes according to scripture.

The FACT that there are two raptures destroys your arguments.

Scott was referencing scriptures; you just stated your view and didn't reference any scriptures and added alien conspiracy theories.

 

[The Light]

Scott was referencing scriptures; you just stated your view and didn't reference any scriptures and added alien conspiracy theories.

Here's a scripture saying there are two folds. There are two raptures.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The two folds are joined as one fold at the gathering from heaven and earth. This is the great multitude that is seen in heaven in Revelation 7 and Revelation 19.

 

[Marty fox]

Here's a scripture saying there are two folds. There are two raptures.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The two folds are joined as one fold at the gathering from heaven and earth. This is the great multitude that is seen in heaven in Revelation 7 and Revelation 19.

That has nothing to do with the rapture that is a current reality as the church is made up of both Jew & Gentile believers in Christ here on earth now and in heaven.


I have no idea of how you see that as any rapture

 

[Scott Downey]

Here's a scripture saying there are two folds. There are two raptures.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The two folds are joined as one fold at the gathering from heaven and earth. This is the great multitude that is seen in heaven in Revelation 7 and Revelation 19.

v16, And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus says one fold and one shepherd, then you divide them into two.
Bad form there.

As there is only one fold.

1 Corinthians 10:17
For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.


Paul describes in Ephesians 2 the same type of thing, not 2 people, just one people, and one group. Here showing both Gentiles and Jews who are saved are one people. There is not 2 bodies of Christ, just one body.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus speaking, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation" Luke 17:20

So much for Greek language.

That is not a correct comparison.

 

[Scott Downey]

1 Corinthians 12 clearly states there is only one body, there is NO DIVISION of the body. The entire body is gathered together as one body, and there are no separate gathering of separate bodies.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink [a]into one Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And he comes for His church as one body of believers when He comes again, we gathered together in one body. Which includes them in heaven and them on earth in Christ.

Ephesians 1:10
that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

 

[Scott Downey]

If the entire goal of the Bible is to reveal the singular plan of God for His people, where is the specific verse that commands us to divide the 'Body of Christ' into two separate groups—the Church and the 'Tribulation Saints'—who are saved and gathered on two different timelines?

 

[Scott Downey]

The "One Hope" Argument (Ephesians 4:4–6)​

Paul makes it clear that the Church’s identity is singular:

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in [c]you all..

• The Logic: If there were two raptures—one for "the Church" and one for "tribulation saints"—there would be two distinct "hopes" and two different destinies. By definition, a "rapture" is the hope of being gathered to Christ. Having two different events for two different groups splits the Body of Christ into a two-tier system, which the Apostles never taught.

The "Day of the Lord" is a Single Point in Time​

Scripture consistently refers to "The Day" or "The Day of the Lord" as the specific chronological marker for the return of Christ, the resurrection, and the judgment.

• To make a mid-trib rapture work, they have to turn "The Day of the Lord" into a multi-year "Period of the Lord." The Bible never does this. It treats the Day of the Lord as a sudden, climactic day that brings the end of the age (2 Peter 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:2).

The "Mystery" of the Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15)​

Paul calls the resurrection a "mystery" (v. 51). In the Bible, a "mystery" is something hidden in the past that is now revealed.

• The Logic: If the Apostles were revealing a secret, multi-stage timeline that lasted years, they would have explained it. Instead, they revealed a single moment where mortals become immortal at the last trumpet. If there is a "last" trumpet, there cannot be a later "post-tribulation" trumpet that gathers a second group.

 

[Scott Downey]

@The Light , please note this...and anyone else who is interested.

1. Claim About the "Secret Rapture" and Alien Abductions​

Quote: "He comes one time for the Church in the secret rapture. Why do you think the story of alien abductions is common?"

• The Flaw: Comparing a doctrine of the Christian faith to the cultural phenomenon of alien abductions is a wild argument. Essentially admitting that the concept of people mysteriously vanishing invisibly without anyone noticing sounds a lot like science fiction rather than biblical descriptions. Scripture describes Christ's return with a shouting voice, an archangel, a trumpet blast of God, and every eye seeing Him—none of which sounds like a quiet, stealthy sci-fi abduction.

2. Splitting of the Church and Israel (The 144,000)​

Quote: "He comes for the 12 tribes across earth, the seed of the woman, Israel. Why do you think there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest? Two raptures."

• The Flaw: Confusing the literal, numerical sealing of the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 with a general gathering of "tribulation saints." The 144,000 are explicitly stated to be sealed from the tribes of the sons of Israel (Revelation 7:4–8), not a code word for a second class of Christian church raptured later. Then having to invent a completely separate timeline and category of people because his pre-trib system can't handle the plain text.

3. Confusion Over the Trumpets​

Quote: "The Lord Himself comes for His bride before the seals are opened at the trump of God of voice of God. The Lord sends His angels when He comes immediately after the tribulation of those days. This happens at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets."

• The Flaw: This is pure chronological gymnastics. Trying to fit a Jewish holiday calendar (Feast of Trumpets) onto a text where Paul is explicitly defining a linear order. If the trumpet blown after the tribulation is the "last trump," how can there have been an earlier trumpet years prior that snatched the church away? By definition, the "last" trumpet is the final one. You cannot have a "last" trumpet if another group is going to experience a subsequent trumpet-driven rapture later.

4. A 6th Seal Invention​

Quote: "There is only one gathering. It is the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal... The Church is gathered from heaven where they were raptured before the great tribulation. The 12 tribes... are gathered for the earth BEFORE the wrath of God."

• The Flaw: Look closely at here: had to invent a scenario where the church is already sitting in heaven just so they can be "gathered" from heaven down to earth (or vice versa) at the 6th seal. The text of Revelation 6 never mentions a rapture at the 6th seal; it describes terrified kings, slaves, and free men hiding in caves shouting for the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. Inserting a whole narrative into the text that simply isn't there.

 

[ScottA]

That is not a correct comparison.

Not only is it correct, is makes Jesus's return and the coming of the kingdom of God synonymous. It is high time the people of God know that and start connecting the dots that make up the bigger picture of all truth.

 

[Davidpt]

@The Light , please note this...and anyone else who is interested.

1. Claim About the "Secret Rapture" and Alien Abductions​

• The Flaw: Comparing a doctrine of the Christian faith to the cultural phenomenon of alien abductions is a wild argument. Essentially admitting that the concept of people mysteriously vanishing invisibly without anyone noticing sounds a lot like science fiction rather than biblical descriptions. Scripture describes Christ's return with a shouting voice, an archangel, a trumpet blast of God, and every eye seeing Him—none of which sounds like a quiet, stealthy sci-fi abduction.

2. Splitting of the Church and Israel (The 144,000)​

• The Flaw: Confusing the literal, numerical sealing of the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 with a general gathering of "tribulation saints." The 144,000 are explicitly stated to be sealed from the tribes of the sons of Israel (Revelation 7:4–8), not a code word for a second class of Christian church raptured later. Then having to invent a completely separate timeline and category of people because his pre-trib system can't handle the plain text.

3. Confusion Over the Trumpets​

• The Flaw: This is pure chronological gymnastics. Trying to fit a Jewish holiday calendar (Feast of Trumpets) onto a text where Paul is explicitly defining a linear order. If the trumpet blown after the tribulation is the "last trump," how can there have been an earlier trumpet years prior that snatched the church away? By definition, the "last" trumpet is the final one. You cannot have a "last" trumpet if another group is going to experience a subsequent trumpet-driven rapture later.

4. A 6th Seal Invention​

• The Flaw: Look closely at here: had to invent a scenario where the church is already sitting in heaven just so they can be "gathered" from heaven down to earth (or vice versa) at the 6th seal. The text of Revelation 6 never mentions a rapture at the 6th seal; it describes terrified kings, slaves, and free men hiding in caves shouting for the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. Inserting a whole narrative into the text that simply isn't there.

I do not disagree that Pretrib is not biblical. Therefore, I'm not arguing for Pretrib or anything. But even so, How do we explain the 2Ws, for example? How do we align them to the last trump? They don't come back to life and rise at the sounding of a trumpet, period. They rise before the 7th trumpet even sounds, and after the 6th trumpet had already sounded earlir. And if the 7th trumpet = the last trump Paul was referencing in 1 Cor 15, where I indeed believe is the case, how does that help us with when the 2Ws rise?

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 ¶The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The 2Ws rise during the 2nd woe not the 3rd woe. Verse 14 clearly means verses 11 and 12 are fulfilled before the 3rd woe cometheth quickly. IOW, the context of verse 11 and 12 is the 2nd woe not the 3rd woe, that it is something that is fulfilled after the 6th trumpet sounds, but before te 7th trumpet sounds. And that the 6th trumpet is not the last trump, the 7th trumpet is.

 

[Marty fox]

I do not disagree that Pretrib is not biblical. Therefore, I'm not arguing for Pretrib or anything. But even so, How do we explain the 2Ws, for example? How do we align them to the last trump? They don't come back to life and rise at the sounding of a trumpet, period. They rise before the 7th trumpet even sounds, and after the 6th trumpet had already sounded earlir. And if the 7th trumpet = the last trump Paul was referencing in 1 Cor 15, where I indeed believe is the case, how does that help us with when the 2Ws rise?

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 ¶The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The 2Ws rise during the 2nd woe not the 3rd woe. Verse 14 clearly means verses 11 and 12 are fulfilled before the 3rd woe cometheth quickly. IOW, the context of verse 11 and 12 is the 2nd woe not the 3rd woe, that it is something that is fulfilled after the 6th trumpet sounds, but before te 7th trumpet sounds. And that the 6th trumpet is not the last trump, the 7th trumpet is.

Because the Two Witnesses are symbolic for the Law and the Prophets which testified and pointed to Jesus.

Jesus stated that no one is coming back from the dead because it won't make a difference

Luke 16
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Scott Downey]

I do not disagree that Pretrib is not biblical. Therefore, I'm not arguing for Pretrib or anything. But even so, How do we explain the 2Ws, for example? How do we align them to the last trump? They don't come back to life and rise at the sounding of a trumpet, period. They rise before the 7th trumpet even sounds, and after the 6th trumpet had already sounded earlir. And if the 7th trumpet = the last trump Paul was referencing in 1 Cor 15, where I indeed believe is the case, how does that help us with when the 2Ws rise?

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 ¶The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The 2Ws rise during the 2nd woe not the 3rd woe. Verse 14 clearly means verses 11 and 12 are fulfilled before the 3rd woe cometheth quickly. IOW, the context of verse 11 and 12 is the 2nd woe not the 3rd woe, that it is something that is fulfilled after the 6th trumpet sounds, but before te 7th trumpet sounds. And that the 6th trumpet is not the last trump, the 7th trumpet is.

The resurrection and ascent of the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 is a localized, public event happening specifically in Jerusalem for two named prophets. Equating their unique historical resurrection with the corporate, global resurrection of the entire Body of Christ at the 'last trumpet' mixes apples and oranges. Scripture features several specific, individual resurrections or translations throughout history (like Elijah, Moses, or the saints in Matthew 27), but none of those redefine the final, universal gathering of the one body described by Paul."​

​

1. The Two Witnesses Are a Specific, Localized Historical Event, Not the General Resurrection​

• The Context of Revelation 11: The death and resurrection of the Two Witnesses happen explicitly in "the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" (Revelation 11:8)—which is Jerusalem.
• Their bodies lie in the street of that specific city for 3 and a half days while "those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them" (v. 10).
• This is a localized, public execution and vindication of two specific prophets in Jerusalem, witnessed by their immediate local enemies. It is entirely different from the universal, cosmic resurrection of the entire Church ("the dead in Christ" and all living believers worldwide) described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

2. "Come Up Hither" is Not the General Rapture of the Church​

• The voice from heaven tells the Two Witnesses, "Come up hither" (Revelation 11:12), and they ascend in a cloud.
• While the phrase sounds similar to being "caught up" (rapto/rapture), context matters immensely. If every single individual "ascent" or calling up in Scripture constitutes the final "Rapture" of the Church, then you run into major scriptural overlap:
  • John is told "Come up hither" in Revelation 4:1 to view visions.
  • Jesus ascends to heaven in a cloud in Acts 1.
  • Philip is carried away by the Spirit in Acts 8.
• The ascent of the Two Witnesses is their specific, individual vindication—their personal finish line after finishing their testimony—just as Enoch or Elijah were taken up. It is not the corporate resurrection and gathering of the entire body of Christ.

3. Aligning the Seventh Trumpet (The "Last Trump")​

• While you correctly note that the seventh trumpet sounds later in Revelation 11:15, introducing the kingdom of our world becoming Christ's.
• If the seventh trumpet in Revelation matches Paul's "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15 (which marks the resurrection and transformation of all believers), then the earlier ascent of the Two Witnesses poses zero contradiction.
• Just as Old Testament saints (like Moses and Elijah appearing on the Mount of Transfiguration, or saints coming out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection in Matthew 27) experienced special, localized resurrections or translations prior to the final general resurrection, the Two Witnesses have a unique, appointed role and exit strategy during the midpoint of the tribulation. They are exceptions that prove the rule, not a blueprint for a multi-stage corporate rapture of the whole Church.

 

[The Light]

@The Light , please note this...and anyone else who is interested.

1. Claim About the "Secret Rapture" and Alien Abductions​

• The Flaw: Comparing a doctrine of the Christian faith to the cultural phenomenon of alien abductions is a wild argument. Essentially admitting that the concept of people mysteriously vanishing invisibly without anyone noticing sounds a lot like science fiction rather than biblical descriptions. Scripture describes Christ's return with a shouting voice, an archangel, a trumpet blast of God, and every eye seeing Him—none of which sounds like a quiet, stealthy sci-fi abduction.

Satan has been preparing the world for a very long time that people are going to disappear. There will be an explanation of why all the people have disappeared.

Beam me up Scotty.

2. Splitting of the Church and Israel (The 144,000)​

• The Flaw: Confusing the literal, numerical sealing of the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 with a general gathering of "tribulation saints." The 144,000 are explicitly stated to be sealed from the tribes of the sons of Israel (Revelation 7:4–8), not a code word for a second class of Christian church raptured later.

You misunderstand. The 144,000 are from 12 tribes of Israel as the Jews will be most of the tribulation saints. The remains yet 3 and a half years of the 70th week of Daniel and that is when God will deal with the people of Daniel. The 144,000 are the first fruits of the second harvest.
Each man in his order..........First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming. He comes for the Church first and then we have first fruits of the second harvest.

• Then having to invent a completely separate timeline and category of people because his pre-trib system can't handle the plain text.

Can't handle the plain text?

One coming at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

One coming days of Noah, and one coming days of Lot.

One coming the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angels.

3. Confusion Over the Trumpets​

• The Flaw: This is pure chronological gymnastics. Trying to fit a Jewish holiday calendar (Feast of Trumpets) onto a text where Paul is explicitly defining a linear order. If the trumpet blown after the tribulation is the "last trump," how can there have been an earlier trumpet years prior that snatched the church away? By definition, the "last" trumpet is the final one. You cannot have a "last" trumpet if another group is going to experience a subsequent trumpet-driven rapture later.

No problem at all. The Church is raptured at the trump of God just like it says.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

God turns His attention to the Jews and part of them have their eyes opened, just like it says. They are raptured at the last trumpet whichis blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

4. A 6th Seal Invention​

• The Flaw: Look closely at here: had to invent a scenario where the church is already sitting in heaven just so they can be "gathered" from heaven down to earth (or vice versa) at the 6th seal.

There is no situation invented. The Church is clearly in heaven as the kings and priests redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. See Rev 5.

• The text of Revelation 6 never mentions a rapture at the 6th seal; it describes terrified kings, slaves, and free men hiding in caves shouting for the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. Inserting a whole narrative into the text that simply isn't there.

Do the following verses describe the coming of Jesus? Do they describe the angels being sent to gather the elect?

Are the sun and moon darkened and do the stars fall from heaven?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Are the sun and moon darkened and the stars fall from heaven at the 6th seal? Shouldn't we be smart enough to conclude that Jesus returns at the six seal and send His angels to gather the elect BEFORE the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

[The Light]

That has nothing to do with the rapture that is a current reality as the church is made up of both Jew & Gentile believers in Christ here on earth now and in heaven.


I have no idea of how you see that as any rapture

I guess that's problem isn't it.

Jesus sheep know His voice and He knows us. That is the Gentiles. The Gentiles are the first fold. After fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel has Its blindness removed. These become the second fold. The two folds become one fold, the great multitude.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.