There is a big difference between great tribulation/affliction faithful saints endure in this life, and the WRATH of God that shall be poured out upon the whole earth when the Lord comes again.
Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?
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There is a big difference between great tribulation/affliction faithful saints endure in this life, and the WRATH of God that shall be poured out upon the whole earth when the Lord comes again.
No, after both the dead in Christ, and those alive at His coming are caught up in the clouds with Christ, then ALL who are left behind on this earth shall suffer God's fiery wrath that shall be poured down upon the whole earth from heaven. Then shall come the great white throne judgment for the DEAD.
This prayer is given to Israel, facing the great tribulation.
As I've previously said, the language in 2 Thessalonians 4:17-18 is inclusive, so I'm going with that.
Much love!
quietthinker
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The base is Jesus, Peter. Do you find when Jesus is the factor to interpret scripture, it is faulty?
Jesus taught all His apostles for their specific role & audience and the ONLY Apostle that was chosen by Christ for you & I today is Acts 9:15, Rom11:13, Rom 15:16 Paul
ONLY Christ Gal 1:11-12 taught Paul the Gospel for you & I
Gal 2:2 Paul even had to tell the 12 of that Gospel.
They then agreed Gal 2:7-9 that Paul goes to us & they to their audience
So maybe listen to the teachings of Christ through Paul that applies to us today instead of putting everything in a blender and coming out with mush.
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I believe you are right to reference the messages to the 7 churches in Rev 2 & 3.
It is quite easy to see this in any church ... there are committed believers living a consecrated life and there are those who are "lukewarm"
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. (Rev 3:15-16)
I do not see this as saying that it is works alone that distinguishes the two groups ... rather, their works are a result of submitting to the Holy Spirit in their lives that results in being an "overcomer" ... Paul refers to these believers as "sealed" (2 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30)
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Mush is when you divide the apostles or the message of the apostles. They all share Jesus according to their personality.
Paul had his way, Peter had his way ...and so on with the whole twelve.....or do we deduct that those Apostles from whom we had no writings, that they had nothing to say?
What I notice is what and who people present. If it is anything other than Jesus, the light of the World, they reveal themselves as having dim vision.
"One taken, one left behind"
1) preflood
2) the setting , preflood, is described by Jesus.
3) that Greek word is used as "taken to a good place"
4) Noah is gathered into the ark preflood.(pretrib).
5) Noah RETURNS FROM THE HEAVENS POSTRIB/POST FLOOD.
Then postribbers need acts 1 edited to read:
" ...this same Jesus that see going up to heaven, will not return in the same manner, but his return will be radically different, and on millions of horses with the saints.
So don't think that this model of Jesus (alone, in peacetime, in Commerce, marriage, and normal life )will be the same Jesus that you see coming in power and great glory after the great tribulation."
Because that wrong model of the entire earth in turmoil with dead bodies everywhere and no commerce, can not be the same timing of Jesus as a groom coming for his bride.
Then rev 14.
The postrib doctrine destroyer , complete with a rapture of the Jewish main harvest.
.....DURING THE TRIB.
NOW, WHAT WAS IT THAT FIRST THESSALONIANS CHAPTER 4 SAID, ABOUT THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISING FIRST, BEFORE THE LIVING?
AND YET YOU GUYS HAVE THE DEAD AND CHRIST RISING AFTER THE LIVING OF REVELATION 14.
When the last/seventh trumpet sounds and Christ has come again all of humankind, both the dead and the living, shall either be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, or they shall be burned up along with the earth and everything on it. Then shall come the great white throne judgment when believers shall inherit the new earth, and unbelievers shall all have their part in the lake of fire that is the second death!
Can not happen.
All those points I posted are just a small section of verses.
Jesus also used lot as a pretrib gathering example.
Neither Noah or lot fit ANYTHING of a postrib gathering. Zero.
The gatherings of Noah, Lot, the virgins gathering, and the acts 1 departure / return.
All those dynamics are PRETRIB SETTING.
Every single one of them.
Then we see that the AC martyrs all refusing the mark, and we see this mass murder VIVIDLY described in Rev, DURING THE TRIB AS A NUMBER SO LARGE THE SLAUGHTER OF CHRISTIANS CANNOT BE NUMBERED.
Ever see a picture of a billion people gathering?
Impossible to count.
But postribbers are oblivious that there is NO BELIEVERS LEFT at the white horse coming.
Yet they place their bets on that dynamic.
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There is no scripture showing Jesus returning to heaven with anyone. He comes with people from heaven to the clouds of Earth to meet people who rise up from the Earth to meet Him in the clouds. They end up on Earth eventually. Never does Christ take anyone from the clouds or anywhere else back to heaven. No scripture ever places Christ in heaven again after he leaves for the rapture meeting.
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Hypothetically, if there were a Pretrib rapture Paul already makes it crystal clear who it will involve. It will involve those that are alive and remain. For the sake of argument, a rapture happens today, thus it is Pretrib. Who today is still alive and remains? Only Pretribbers? No Post Tribbers? No Preterists? etc.
There you go then, you have the answer to your question, it will include everyone that is still alive and remains, meaning among the saved in the body of Christ. Nowhere in 1 Thess 4 did Paul ever say one has to be Pretribber in order to be raptured, but if one is a Post Tribber, they will be left behind because they didn't belive in a Pretrib rapture.
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The rapture/harpazo Paul wrote about is complete. No partial rapture or rapture later of any that weren't.
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How? If one writer spoke of Christ's resurrections, then another did as well would that be two separate resurrections? No.
There is only one last trumpet in the very end times and it's the 7th tump when Christ returns and when the resurrection and rapture happen.
There are not two comings, two raptures or two last trumps.
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