The good man that turned bad out of necessity

[Matthias]

Let me give you an actual scenario.

Somebody that you love is being doused with gasoline. The person that is dousing your loved one is going to burn them alive.

The ONLY way to stop it is to kill the person.

Do you kill the person?

In every scenario, I follow the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

btw, welcome to the forum.

 

[Matthias]

Killers burst into your home, intent on murdering you and your family. What do you do? You must kill the killers. Right? Wrong.

“To confuse Hamas on October 7th, this elderly Jewish man, Shlmo Ron (85) took a seat in his living room.

He didn’t play dead.
He played the lonely old man card.

It worked.

Hamas terrorists killed him, but after killing the lonely old man, they figured nobody else was at home.

This worked perfectly.

His family was spared, hiding in another area of the house. Shlmo Ron sacrificed himself. May we never forget his bravery.”

Mazelit Airaksinen (@Mazelit_) on X

To confuse Hamas on October 7th, this elderly Jewish man, Shlomo Ron (85) took a seat in his living room. He didn't play dead. He played the lonely old man card. It worked. Hamas terrorists killed him, but after killing the lonely old man, they figured nobody else was at

x.com

There are “Christian” members on this forum who would call Shlmo Ron a coward. Don’t you believe them.

 

[RLT63]

Killers burst into your home, intent on murdering you and your family. What do you do? You must kill the killers. Right? Wrong.

“To confuse Hamas on October 7th, this elderly Jewish man, Shlmo Ron (85) took a seat in his living room.

He didn’t play dead.
He played the lonely old man card.

It worked.

Hamas terrorists killed him, but after killing the lonely old man, they figured nobody else was at home.

This worked perfectly.

His family was spared, hiding in another area of the house. Shlmo Ron sacrificed himself. May we never forget his bravery.”

Mazelit Airaksinen (@Mazelit_) on X

To confuse Hamas on October 7th, this elderly Jewish man, Shlomo Ron (85) took a seat in his living room. He didn't play dead. He played the lonely old man card. It worked. Hamas terrorists killed him, but after killing the lonely old man, they figured nobody else was at

x.com

There are “Christian” members on this forum who would call Shlmo Ron a coward. Don’t you believe them.

He was a brave man

 

[Riven]

In every scenario, I follow the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

btw, welcome to the forum.

So you would let a loved one be set ablaze instead of killing the person trying to do it? I bet your family members would love to hear that.

 

[Matthias]

So you would let a loved one be set ablaze instead of killing the person trying to do it? I bet your family members would love to hear that.

The atheist has done you a favor. He has shown you again that you aren’t willing to follow Jesus and the apostles in all scenarios.

I’ve asked several times: what would it take to get you not to follow Jesus and the apostles? A threat to someone you love is enough to do it. You’ve placed that person above Jesus. Do you remember what Jesus said about people who do that?

***

Have you ever read 2 Maccabees 7? If you haven’t, you should.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Maccabees 7 - New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised

The Martyrdom of Seven Brothers - It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and thongs, to partake of unlawful swine’s flesh. One of them, acting as their spokesman, said, ‘What do you intend to ask and...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Matthias]

Let me give you an actual scenario.

Somebody that you love is being doused with gasoline. The person that is dousing your loved one is going to burn them alive.

The ONLY way to stop it is to kill the person.

Do you kill the person?

Where is God in your scenario? Is he not able to stop it?

 

[RLT63]

The atheist has done you a favor. He has shown you again that you aren’t willing to follow Jesus and the apostles in all scenarios.

I’ve asked several times: what would it take to get you not to follow Jesus and the apostles? A threat to someone you love is enough to do it. You’ve placed that person above Jesus. Do you remember what Jesus said about people who do that?

***

Have you ever read 2 Maccabees 7? If you haven’t, you should.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Maccabees 7 - New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised

The Martyrdom of Seven Brothers - It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and thongs, to partake of unlawful swine’s flesh. One of them, acting as their spokesman, said, ‘What do you intend to ask and...

www.biblegateway.com

Source Grok - Primarily in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible), especially the Torah and historical books, there are passages in which God is depicted as commanding the Israelites to kill specific groups of people or to carry out capital punishment under the Mosaic Law. These are presented in the text as acts of divine judgment, often tied to the concept of ḥērem (the “ban” or devotion to destruction), prevention of idolatry/corruption, or legal penalties. They are limited to particular historical contexts involving ancient Israel and are not framed as ongoing general instructions. Conquest of the Canaanite nations

• Deuteronomy 7:1–2 and Deuteronomy 20:16–18: God commands the Israelites, upon entering the land given as an inheritance, not to leave alive anything that breathes in the cities of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, but to “completely destroy” (ḥērem) them. The stated reason is to prevent them from teaching Israel their “detestable” practices (including idolatry and related sins described in Leviticus 18). Distant cities outside the land were to be treated differently (offer of peace first; males killed only if war ensued).
• Related instructions appear in Exodus 23:20–33, Numbers 33:50–56, and Deuteronomy 7 more broadly (drive out/destroy and show no mercy or intermarriage).
• The book of Joshua describes implementation (e.g., Joshua 6:17, 21 at Jericho: every living thing destroyed with the sword; similar language for other cities such as Ai and northern campaigns). The text sometimes notes failures to fully carry this out.

The Amalekites

• 1 Samuel 15:2–3: Through the prophet Samuel, God commands King Saul to attack Amalek and “totally destroy” all that belongs to them—men, women, children, infants, and livestock—as punishment for Amalek’s earlier attacks on Israel (referenced in Exodus 17 and Deuteronomy 25:17–19). Saul’s incomplete obedience (sparing King Agag and the best animals) leads to his rejection as king.

Midianites and related judgments

• Numbers 25 and Numbers 31: After Midianite/Moabite involvement in leading Israel into idolatry and sexual immorality (Baal of Peor), God commands action against the Midianites. In the subsequent campaign, the Israelites kill the males; Moses then orders the killing of every male child and every non-virgin woman among the captives (virgin women are spared).

Other specific or legal commands

• Capital punishments in the Mosaic Law: The Torah prescribes the death penalty (often by stoning) for various offenses, presented as divine commands. Examples include:
  • Murder (Genesis 9:6; Exodus 21:12; Leviticus 24:17; Numbers 35).
  • Idolatry, apostasy, or enticing others to it (Exodus 22:20; Deuteronomy 13:1–18—including family members or an entire city under certain conditions; Deuteronomy 17).
  • Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), Sabbath-breaking in certain cases (Exodus 31:14–15; Numbers 15:32–36), certain sexual sins (adultery, incest, bestiality, etc., in Leviticus 20 and Deuteronomy 22), striking or cursing parents (Exodus 21:15, 17), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), and sorcery/witchcraft (Exodus 22:18; Leviticus 20:27).
• Exodus 32:27–28 (golden calf incident): After the people’s idolatry, Moses (relaying the Lord’s word) instructs the Levites to go through the camp and kill brother, friend, and neighbor; about 3,000 die.
• Earlier conquests of kings Sihon and Og (Numbers 21; Deuteronomy 2–3) also involve total destruction language under divine direction.

These accounts are part of the biblical narrative of God’s dealings with ancient Israel, often explained in the text itself (and in later Jewish and Christian interpretation) as judgment on cultures practicing extreme practices such as child sacrifice and as protection of Israel’s covenant identity. The New Testament does not contain parallel commands for followers of Jesus to kill. Modern readers across traditions debate the interpretation, historicity, ethics, hyperbolic language of ancient Near Eastern warfare rhetoric, and theological implications of these texts. The passages are descriptive of specific ancient directives rather than prescriptive models for contemporary action.

 

[Matthias]

Source Grok - Primarily in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible), especially the Torah and historical books, there are passages in which God is depicted as commanding the Israelites to kill specific groups of people or to carry out capital punishment under the Mosaic Law. These are presented in the text as acts of divine judgment, often tied to the concept of ḥērem (the “ban” or devotion to destruction), prevention of idolatry/corruption, or legal penalties. They are limited to particular historical contexts involving ancient Israel and are not framed as ongoing general instructions. Conquest of the Canaanite nations

• Deuteronomy 7:1–2 and Deuteronomy 20:16–18: God commands the Israelites, upon entering the land given as an inheritance, not to leave alive anything that breathes in the cities of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, but to “completely destroy” (ḥērem) them. The stated reason is to prevent them from teaching Israel their “detestable” practices (including idolatry and related sins described in Leviticus 18). Distant cities outside the land were to be treated differently (offer of peace first; males killed only if war ensued).
• Related instructions appear in Exodus 23:20–33, Numbers 33:50–56, and Deuteronomy 7 more broadly (drive out/destroy and show no mercy or intermarriage).
• The book of Joshua describes implementation (e.g., Joshua 6:17, 21 at Jericho: every living thing destroyed with the sword; similar language for other cities such as Ai and northern campaigns). The text sometimes notes failures to fully carry this out.

The Amalekites

• 1 Samuel 15:2–3: Through the prophet Samuel, God commands King Saul to attack Amalek and “totally destroy” all that belongs to them—men, women, children, infants, and livestock—as punishment for Amalek’s earlier attacks on Israel (referenced in Exodus 17 and Deuteronomy 25:17–19). Saul’s incomplete obedience (sparing King Agag and the best animals) leads to his rejection as king.

Midianites and related judgments

• Numbers 25 and Numbers 31: After Midianite/Moabite involvement in leading Israel into idolatry and sexual immorality (Baal of Peor), God commands action against the Midianites. In the subsequent campaign, the Israelites kill the males; Moses then orders the killing of every male child and every non-virgin woman among the captives (virgin women are spared).

Other specific or legal commands

• Capital punishments in the Mosaic Law: The Torah prescribes the death penalty (often by stoning) for various offenses, presented as divine commands. Examples include:
  • Murder (Genesis 9:6; Exodus 21:12; Leviticus 24:17; Numbers 35).
  • Idolatry, apostasy, or enticing others to it (Exodus 22:20; Deuteronomy 13:1–18—including family members or an entire city under certain conditions; Deuteronomy 17).
  • Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), Sabbath-breaking in certain cases (Exodus 31:14–15; Numbers 15:32–36), certain sexual sins (adultery, incest, bestiality, etc., in Leviticus 20 and Deuteronomy 22), striking or cursing parents (Exodus 21:15, 17), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), and sorcery/witchcraft (Exodus 22:18; Leviticus 20:27).
• Exodus 32:27–28 (golden calf incident): After the people’s idolatry, Moses (relaying the Lord’s word) instructs the Levites to go through the camp and kill brother, friend, and neighbor; about 3,000 die.
• Earlier conquests of kings Sihon and Og (Numbers 21; Deuteronomy 2–3) also involve total destruction language under divine direction.

These accounts are part of the biblical narrative of God’s dealings with ancient Israel, often explained in the text itself (and in later Jewish and Christian interpretation) as judgment on cultures practicing extreme practices such as child sacrifice and as protection of Israel’s covenant identity. The New Testament does not contain parallel commands for followers of Jesus to kill. Modern readers across traditions debate the interpretation, historicity, ethics, hyperbolic language of ancient Near Eastern warfare rhetoric, and theological implications of these texts. The passages are descriptive of specific ancient directives rather than prescriptive models for contemporary action.

Grok did well with this.

 

[Debp]

I could love an enemy,,,,but not allow him into my home because I know he will cause harm.

Jesus said to be gentle as doves
but wise as serpents.

I agree we need to use wisdom according to each circumstance.

The atheist has done you a favor. He has shown you again that you aren’t willing to follow Jesus and the apostles in all scenarios.

@Matthias Do you really think it's beneficial to keep picking at @Riven 's faith? After all Riven just became a Christian around Good Friday. From being an agnostic. Why not let Riven grow spiritually at his own pace, rather than all of these accusations towards his faith?

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

@Mancunian You might be interested that Riven is a new Christian. He came to the UK Christian fellowship I'm with on Good Friday. Counter Media UK.

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias Do you really think it's beneficial to keep picking at @Riven 's faith? After all Riven just became a Christian around Good Friday. From being an agnostic. Why not let Riven grow spiritually at his own pace, rather than all of these accusations towards his faith?

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

@Riven is an adult. He’s said that he is enjoying our conversation. If at any point he wants to end the conversation all he needs to do is say so.

I’m a pastor. If /when a new Christian says that there are times when a Christian must go against Jesus and the apostles, I have a responsibility to him or her to correct and instruct them. I’m reasoning with Riven. He’ll eventually figure it out.

 

[Matthias]

@Riven please let me know if my questions have made you feel uncomfortable. I assure you that the questions you and others have asked me haven’t made me feel uncomfortable. I welcome them. If you don’t want to continue the conversation we can leave it where it stands.

@Riven this is now the second time that @Debp has spoken about our conversation. The first time, she spoke to you about it. This time she has spoken to me about it.

I believe it should continue. The decision to continue or not is in your hands. If you want to continue, we will. If you don’t want to continue, we won’t.

It isn’t going to end well for anyone who says it’s okay to go against the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Any pastor worth his salt will tell you that.

Whether we continue to discuss it or not, find a pastor whom you trust will care enough about you to tell you the truth.

 

[Matthias]

“To overcome evil with good is to trust that love is stronger than any force of darkness.” - Henri Nouwen

 

[RLT63]

Where is God in your scenario? Is he not able to stop it?

He’s telling you to stop it. Lay down your life to save another.

 

[Matthias]

He’s telling you to stop it.

Notice that the scenario eliminates all possibilities of me stopping it except for the one - the ONLY one - desired by the unbeliever -> God doesn’t exist; it’s all up to me.

This scenario was a temptation of the devil.

Lay down your life to save another.

That wasn’t an option in the unbeliever’s scenario.

@Riven has said that man was better than God in the matter of the Holocaust. That’s blasphemy. Man is never better than God.

Now we have a refinement: Man is better without God. Riven never saw it coming. Does he see it now?

 

[Matthias]

The NonChristian forums are a dangerous place for new Christians to be hanging out in.

 

[Matthias]

So you would let a loved one be set ablaze instead of killing the person trying to do it? I bet your family members would love to hear that.

@Riven my family members are Christians. They would not want me to go against Jesus and the apostles to try to save them. (2 Maccabees 7.) Going against Jesus and the apostles would end in my destruction in the lake of fire.

If I’m the one that the gasoline killer has soaked with gasoline, I don’t want them to go against the teaching of Jesus and the apostles to try to save me.

I’m in God’s hands. No matter what someone might do to me, I’m saved. If it’s been a while since you’ve read the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego (Daniel 3), take a few minutes and read it again.

I mentioned a hymn to you a short while back. “Go with him, all the way.” We can’t go with him only when times are good. We have to go with him when times are bad. That’s going with him all the way.

 

[Debp]

@Riven my family members are Christians. They would not want me to go against Jesus and the apostles to try to save them. (2 Maccabees 7.) Going against Jesus and the apostles would end in my destruction in the lake of fire.

If I’m the one that the gasoline killer has soaked with gasoline, I don’t want them to go against the teaching of Jesus and the apostles to try to save me.

I’m in God’s hands. No matter what someone might do to me, I’m saved. If it’s been a while since you’ve read the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego (Daniel 3), take a few minutes and read it again.

I mentioned a hymn to you a short while back. “Go with him, all the way.” We can’t go with him only when times are good. We have to go with him when times are bad. That’s going with him all the way.

The books of Maccabees are not recognized as Canon by Protestants and Jews.

What are the books of 1 and 2 Maccabees? | GotQuestions.org

What are the books of 1 and 2 Maccabees? Should 1 and 2 Maccabees be in the Bible? Why don’t Protestant Bibles include 1 and 2 Maccabees?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Matthias]

The books of Maccabees are not recognized as Canon by Protestants and Jews.

What are the books of 1 and 2 Maccabees? | GotQuestions.org

What are the books of 1 and 2 Maccabees? Should 1 and 2 Maccabees be in the Bible? Why don’t Protestant Bibles include 1 and 2 Maccabees?

www.gotquestions.org

Neither do I recognize it as Canon. What the Jewish woman and her seven sons did when being tortured and killed was commendable in the eyes of God.

 

[Debp]

Going against Jesus and the apostles would end in my destruction in the lake of fire.

Are you born again? That is, born of the Spirit by believing on Jesus Christ as your personal Savior? If so, you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and cannot be lost due to an attempt to save one of your family members.

 

[Matthias]

Are you born again? That is, born of the Spirit by believing on Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?

Yes.

If so, you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and cannot be lost due to an attempt to save one of your family members.

That’s right.