In this episode we explore the purpose of grace and by extension the purpose of salvation. Is the prime directive of the gospel that God fulfill our desires or that we meet His?
What is the purpose of Grace?
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What the purpose of grace is NOT for is for people to justify themselves based on their beliefs.
Romans 4:1-8 KJV
1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Paul never wrote what he did for people to justify themselves with. Only God justifies. And only the self-righteous justify themselves...for ANY reason. It says GOD imputes righteousness....not the person.
And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Ps 143:2
Romans 4:1-8 KJV
1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Paul never wrote what he did for people to justify themselves with. Only God justifies. And only the self-righteous justify themselves...for ANY reason. It says GOD imputes righteousness....not the person.
And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Ps 143:2
A lot of the errors we see in theology and doctrine today stem from a lack of understanding of what motivated Paul to write his letters.
Paul's concern was 2 fold...and many of his sayings reflect the 2 levels that I will describe by comparing like verses with like verses in order to rightly divide what he said.
1. On the one hand a LOT of Paul's writings were a defense against an encroaching Judaism that demanded that new believers also become Jews. This motivation is overlooked far too often. So we read about "the law" in this case as the law of Moses (aka Judaism).
2. And secondly, Paul wrote of a differentiation between the higher walk in holiness and righteousness AND what was commonly understood as being righteous according to God in the face of those who only knew of a human righteousness. The great error here is to think that Paul sought to abolish human righteousness. That's a great error indeed. No, he defended a higher walk because it gives eternal LIFE right now. The life of Christ overcomes sin. IN Him is no sin. As such Paul preached the higher form of the gospel. The curious thing is that he only alludes to the goodness of the lower form of righteousness with chapters like 1 Cor. 13 and the superiority of love over knowledge and beliefs. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies.
I will post here 2 verses that say the same thing....and show how they each relate to Paul's 2 prime directives.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom. 8:2
On the first level the "law" of sin and death is the law of Moses. Under the old law if a man sinned greatly or ignored the law he was put to death.
Notice here...
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Heb 10:28
So this is the law of sin and death from a Jewish perspective. But the verse in Romans 8 goes deeper than that. It has a more universal application. We see this with a parallel verse that describes this other layer of meaning.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23
Sin in this case is against God's law not the law of Moses. Sin removes us from God's presence...not a death like being stoned to death under the Mosaic law..as in a physical death. No, in this case the death is a spiritual one.
So we can compare the 2 verses in Romans directly to glean a deeper understanding and insight into Paul's writings. But let me get breakfast first...
Paul's concern was 2 fold...and many of his sayings reflect the 2 levels that I will describe by comparing like verses with like verses in order to rightly divide what he said.
1. On the one hand a LOT of Paul's writings were a defense against an encroaching Judaism that demanded that new believers also become Jews. This motivation is overlooked far too often. So we read about "the law" in this case as the law of Moses (aka Judaism).
2. And secondly, Paul wrote of a differentiation between the higher walk in holiness and righteousness AND what was commonly understood as being righteous according to God in the face of those who only knew of a human righteousness. The great error here is to think that Paul sought to abolish human righteousness. That's a great error indeed. No, he defended a higher walk because it gives eternal LIFE right now. The life of Christ overcomes sin. IN Him is no sin. As such Paul preached the higher form of the gospel. The curious thing is that he only alludes to the goodness of the lower form of righteousness with chapters like 1 Cor. 13 and the superiority of love over knowledge and beliefs. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies.
I will post here 2 verses that say the same thing....and show how they each relate to Paul's 2 prime directives.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom. 8:2
On the first level the "law" of sin and death is the law of Moses. Under the old law if a man sinned greatly or ignored the law he was put to death.
Notice here...
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Heb 10:28
So this is the law of sin and death from a Jewish perspective. But the verse in Romans 8 goes deeper than that. It has a more universal application. We see this with a parallel verse that describes this other layer of meaning.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23
Sin in this case is against God's law not the law of Moses. Sin removes us from God's presence...not a death like being stoned to death under the Mosaic law..as in a physical death. No, in this case the death is a spiritual one.
So we can compare the 2 verses in Romans directly to glean a deeper understanding and insight into Paul's writings. But let me get breakfast first...
Let's dare to compare 2 verses from Paul that are saying the same thing but on 2 different levels.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom. 8:2
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23
Do you see the contrast between life and death in both verses? Paul is championing an overcoming life that conquers death that is found in Christ. Whether it be the Mosaic law that was all about death...or else the law of God that condemned us to death....there is another living way in Christ that conquers both sin and the death associated with it. There is a higher walk by grace through faith that gives us victory over sin...to walk as Jesus walked. This is Paul's witness of Christ. It is also mine!
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom. 8:2
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23
Do you see the contrast between life and death in both verses? Paul is championing an overcoming life that conquers death that is found in Christ. Whether it be the Mosaic law that was all about death...or else the law of God that condemned us to death....there is another living way in Christ that conquers both sin and the death associated with it. There is a higher walk by grace through faith that gives us victory over sin...to walk as Jesus walked. This is Paul's witness of Christ. It is also mine!
The bible draws a distinction between a heavenly visitation and a translation or relocation from one realm to the other. To be seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
There is a big difference between a visitation from God to us and our translation to be where He is...in His keeping power. The translation KEEPS us in God for as long as we don't sin unto death. The keeping power of God is like a fridge magnet whereby we remain in close proximity to Him in intimacy until the cares of this world overcomes the magnetic power that keeps us stuck fast (or cleaving to) to the fridge. Like when we try putting too many papers or photos between the magnet and the fridge. When we do that, we fall out of the Spirit. A fall from grace. A fall from the FULL measure of grace....(not a fall from the initial sample of grace).
When I say a fall from grace people who have never been translated into the kingdom will react because they have only received a sample of grace, so often (or not even), and so they can't accept a falling away from a free gift. What people don't understand is that what they are doing by NOT seeking God for the full measure of grace that gets us translated into the kingdom realm in victory over sin....is that they are frustrating grace...frustrating the PURPOSE of grace....and burying their sample as something that comforts them in their own estimation...mistaking the gift for intimacy and approval from God. They love the gift but not the Giver. (He is seen as too demanding)
The free sample of grace is merely a calling, an invitation, to draw nearer to God.
Many are called but few are chosen.
Maran atha <><
There is a big difference between a visitation from God to us and our translation to be where He is...in His keeping power. The translation KEEPS us in God for as long as we don't sin unto death. The keeping power of God is like a fridge magnet whereby we remain in close proximity to Him in intimacy until the cares of this world overcomes the magnetic power that keeps us stuck fast (or cleaving to) to the fridge. Like when we try putting too many papers or photos between the magnet and the fridge. When we do that, we fall out of the Spirit. A fall from grace. A fall from the FULL measure of grace....(not a fall from the initial sample of grace).
When I say a fall from grace people who have never been translated into the kingdom will react because they have only received a sample of grace, so often (or not even), and so they can't accept a falling away from a free gift. What people don't understand is that what they are doing by NOT seeking God for the full measure of grace that gets us translated into the kingdom realm in victory over sin....is that they are frustrating grace...frustrating the PURPOSE of grace....and burying their sample as something that comforts them in their own estimation...mistaking the gift for intimacy and approval from God. They love the gift but not the Giver. (He is seen as too demanding)
The free sample of grace is merely a calling, an invitation, to draw nearer to God.
Many are called but few are chosen.
Maran atha <><
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bro.tan
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Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Not save from eternal life, but saved from the flood. This is why Jesus had to come. Paul says in Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.
So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death, which is the lake of fire. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.
So by coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize, you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again.
Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation
It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)
Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.
So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death, which is the lake of fire. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.
So by coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize, you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again.
Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation
It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)
The other thread was locked..so this is my response to @Grailhunter
I agree with your assessment except for the waiting for a sign from heaven. The Pharisees did such and Jesus rebuked them for it. And I have known a lot of people who CLAIM that God told them this or that...but it's all superficial emotionalism.
But that's where discernment comes in. Just because most people name and claim doesn't mean that negates a true testimony. After all, because of lawlessness the love of many will wax cold.
I'm not saying you have to believe my testimony...just give the doctrine a decent hearing....check the bible like the Bereans did. That's all I ask. If people still don't believe me AFTER they have honestly and carefully measured what I teach...then so be it. My job is done.
Me too. So we may have something in common after all.
I teach the biblical 4 eternal destinies. One of the destinies is the lake of fire that kills both body AND soul. This is the second death.
For believers I say that it is outer darkness that awaits false teachers...not hell. Otherwise, all who call on the name of the Lord could not be saved. You have to measure the truth in a balance.
Matthew uses the same verses for kingdom of heaven that other gospels use for kingdom of God. They need to be seen as interchangeable....at least for our use. Heaven is for NOW. God is eternal.
There is nothing in the bible that says that salvation is predestined. Again, more careful reading is required. People are only predestined to be like Jesus. All others are judged by their works...It' s up to them to obey or not.
An example of this kind of foolishness is to take a statement of Jesus about being born again to say...unless you are born again you are going to hell. Such are self-condemned who send people to hell for whom Jesus died. That kind of thing gets you rejected from God.
Another sure fire way to be rejected is to take away words and add words to fit an ideology.
An example of this is... Jesus said....I came not to call the righteous (the healthy who don't need a physician) to repentance...but sinners. A hypocrite will read this as ...I came not to call the SELF-righteous, but sinners.
People who add in SELF into the text do it from SELF and condemn themselves. They are fully ignorant of God and His ways. But they try teaching people lies. Do you also correct them...or are you part of the problem?
So then knowing the terror of the Lord and His ZEAL for the humble and righteous who foolish believers condemn...I WARN MEN.
I agree with your assessment except for the waiting for a sign from heaven. The Pharisees did such and Jesus rebuked them for it. And I have known a lot of people who CLAIM that God told them this or that...but it's all superficial emotionalism.
But that's where discernment comes in. Just because most people name and claim doesn't mean that negates a true testimony. After all, because of lawlessness the love of many will wax cold.
I'm not saying you have to believe my testimony...just give the doctrine a decent hearing....check the bible like the Bereans did. That's all I ask. If people still don't believe me AFTER they have honestly and carefully measured what I teach...then so be it. My job is done.
Me too. So we may have something in common after all.
I teach the biblical 4 eternal destinies. One of the destinies is the lake of fire that kills both body AND soul. This is the second death.
For believers I say that it is outer darkness that awaits false teachers...not hell. Otherwise, all who call on the name of the Lord could not be saved. You have to measure the truth in a balance.
Matthew uses the same verses for kingdom of heaven that other gospels use for kingdom of God. They need to be seen as interchangeable....at least for our use. Heaven is for NOW. God is eternal.
There is nothing in the bible that says that salvation is predestined. Again, more careful reading is required. People are only predestined to be like Jesus. All others are judged by their works...It' s up to them to obey or not.
It is simple UNTIL we start to claim things from the bible that we shouldn't...and get it to say things that are not there...especially when condemning people for no reason.
An example of this kind of foolishness is to take a statement of Jesus about being born again to say...unless you are born again you are going to hell. Such are self-condemned who send people to hell for whom Jesus died. That kind of thing gets you rejected from God.
Another sure fire way to be rejected is to take away words and add words to fit an ideology.
An example of this is... Jesus said....I came not to call the righteous (the healthy who don't need a physician) to repentance...but sinners. A hypocrite will read this as ...I came not to call the SELF-righteous, but sinners.
People who add in SELF into the text do it from SELF and condemn themselves. They are fully ignorant of God and His ways. But they try teaching people lies. Do you also correct them...or are you part of the problem?
So then knowing the terror of the Lord and His ZEAL for the humble and righteous who foolish believers condemn...I WARN MEN.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
So what I get from that is....Blah blah, you do not believe in an eternal fiery torment. You have to be honest with people, not tap dance around the question.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Heaven is now....it exist. But I am thinking you have some wild ideas with the phrase Heaven is now.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No one is like Yeshua. No one is predestined to be like Yeshua. All and I mean all will be judged.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
The torment is in outer darkness, knowing that you lied about God and are cut off from His presence for ever.
If you want to revel in eternal torment for unbelievers who suffer forever for a few years of sin.....enjoy!
I didn't think I needed to quote the bible with a "theologian". But I see you have been indoctrinated...you have never met the Lord. And you aren't able to see the scriptures in any other light.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Born again is referring to Baptism and what it does. Without it you are going to Hell. For two reasons, one you did not obey Yeshua's requirement for salvation and two you left out part of the process of salvation.
What happens if you do not believe in Yeshua as God and savior?
What happens if you do not repent?
What happen if you do not get baptized?
What happen if you do not participate in the Bread and Wine ritual?
The actual purpose of grace is for the elect to be conformed to the image of Christ....so that He is the firstborn of many brethren.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
We are all sinners.
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
You are fully outside the biblical narrative...and following a decoy gospel that saves no one. I can save your soul from here...
People will be judged on their DEEDS...not their beliefs. According to righteousness. God will judge the world in righteousness (not holiness) The higher walk in Christ in holiness is by grace through faith...since NO DEED can make us be translated into the heavenly kingdom realm. It is a gift of grace by faith.
John says that so that we don't sin...In Him is no sin. You teach a sinful salvation. How about a lawless holiness? Do you also adopt that. Being half-holy?
Those who sin have never known God....read John in context. John spoke against Gnostics (see church history) who claimed that they NEVER sinned because the flesh is NOT THEM.
I have a fish on the hook. :)
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I am right on target with the biblical narrative.
Of what I listed, what do you think you can leave out and still be saved?
And yes sometimes you will be judged on what you believe. Belief in the deity of Yeshua and believe in Him as Savior.
That is false. A man can be saved by a doctor without the person knowing who the doctor is. The man who was rescued by the Samaritan didn't know the Samaritan.
now read the bible again.
Lord when did we see you and minister to you????
Jesus answers...Inasmuch as you did it to the least of these my brethren...you did it to Me.
Your training is all wrong because you have never entered into any kind of eternal reality. You are stuck on the level of a scribe or Pharisee.
But I can lead you into truth...truth that your training fights against.
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
That’s the best I’ve heard you explain that! Very good.
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