The good man that turned bad out of necessity

[Matthias]

“Pick up your cross and follow me.” - Jesus

@Riven what does that sound and look like to you?

If we do that, could we wind up like Jesus? The apostles did. The martyrs did.

Are you willing for that to happen? I am.

 

[Matthias]

Followers of Jesus can do a lot of things, and are expected to. What we cannot ever do, under any circumstances, is to go against Jesus and the apostles.

That’s what I was invited to do in post #620.

 

[Matthias]

The ONLY way to stop it is to kill the person.

That’s an assumption.

The only way to God is through Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, Son of the living God. That’s a fact.

What is keeping you from following him?

 

[Matthias]

The person that is dousing your loved one is going to burn them alive.

The ONLY way to stop it is to kill the person.

Do you kill the person?

There was no gasoline in the days when Christians were burning Christians at the stake. Other fuel served that purpose.

My Anabaptist ancestors did not kill their Christian persecutors.

There was no gasoline in the days when Nero was burning Christians as human torches in his garden. My primitive Christian ancestors did not kill Nero.

Why do you want me to kill those who are persecuting me and my family?

 

[Matthias]

The good man has no necessity to turn bad.

The good man has the necessity of following the teaching and practice of Jesus and the apostles. That is true if the good man is dealing with good men. That is true if the good man is dealing with evil men.

 

[RLT63]

Notice that the scenario eliminates all possibilities of me stopping it except for the one - the ONLY one - desired by the unbeliever -> God doesn’t exist; it’s all up to me.

This scenario was a temptation of the devil.



That wasn’t an option in the unbeliever’s scenario.

@Riven has said that man was better than God in the matter of the Holocaust. That’s blasphemy. Man is never better than God.

Now we have a refinement: Man is better without God. Riven never saw it coming. Does he see it now?

Man is never better than God. We just don’t understand God, I understand why @Riven said what he did but it was wrong.

 

[Matthias]

Man is never better than God. We just don’t understand God, I understand why @Riven said what he did but it was wrong.

I think he’ll eventually see that and change his mind, but he needs time and good guidance. You can give him that. You have the heart of a pastor.

I also think he should talk about it in the “Christians Only“ forums. He’s not far removed from agnosticism and those old arguments. My sense is that he could be dragged back into it, which I would hate to see happen. Swimming in atheistic / agnostic waters - you can do it safely. I‘m not convinced he can at this time.

It’s his decision to make.

 

[Matthias]

“If Satan cannot convince you that God does not exist, he will gladly convince you that God does not care how you live.

A Christianity with no repentance, no holiness, no obedience, and no fear of God is exactly the kind of Christianity Satan is happy for you to have.” - Scott Roberts

Scott Roberts (@ScottRoberts) on X

If Satan cannot convince you that God does not exist, he will gladly convince you that God does not care how you live. A Christianity with no repentance, no holiness, no obedience, and no fear of God is exactly the kind of Christianity Satan is happy for you to have.

x.com

Going against the teaching of Jesus and the apostles is disobedience to their authority.

 

[Matthias]

“The death of Jesus made men willing to die for him. No pain, no torture, could keep back the believing host. They loved Jesus so that though their leaders fell by bloody deaths, another rank came on, and yet another, and another, til despots saw that neither dungeon, nor rack, nor fire could stop the march of the army of Christ. It is so now. Christ’s wounds pour life into the church by transfusion: the life-blood of the church of God is from Jesus’ wounds. Let us know its power and feel it working within us to will and to do of his good pleasure.” - C.H. Spurgeon

 

[Mancunian]

@Matthias
Is Jesus God incarnate?

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias
Is Jesus God incarnate?

Yes, within the framework of Jewish monotheism. Is that what is keeping you from following him?

 

[RLT63]

Yes, within the framework of Jewish monotheism. Is that what is keeping you from following him?

I didn't know you believed that

 

[Matthias]

I didn't know you believed that

I’m curious about why @Mancunian asked me about it. It was a good question; I’m glad he asked it, but what is he driving at in our conversation about not killing my enemies and following Jesus? I guess we’ll find out.

 

[RLT63]

I’m curious about why @Mancunian asked me about it. It was a good question; I’m glad he asked it, but what is he driving at in our conversation about not killing my enemies and following Jesus? I guess we’ll find out.

I'm confident that you'll have answers for him

 

[Matthias]

I'm confident that you'll have answers for him

I’m looking forward to it. He seems like an amiable person.

 

[Mancunian]

I’m looking forward to it. He seems like an amiable person.

Well thank you for that comment kind sir it's much appreciated.

I was asking you the question because I'd like to find out more about the Old Testament and what change happened with God in the New Testament.

We know from reading the book of Genesis that God wiped out all living things apart from Noah and his family just as one example. There are lots of other examples of God's wrath from those books.

If you can explain what you think changed because as I've said before Jesus seemed to be a good man so I'm a little confused.

 

[RLT63]

Well thank you for that comment kind sir it's much appreciated.

I was asking you the question because I'd like to find out more about the Old Testament and what change happened with God in the New Testament.

We know from reading the book of Genesis that God wiped out all living things apart from Noah and his family just as one example. There are lots of other examples of God's wrath from those books.

If you can explain what you think changed because as I've said before Jesus seemed to be a good man so I'm a little confused.

You picked a good person to ask

 

[RLT63]

Well thank you for that comment kind sir it's much appreciated.

I was asking you the question because I'd like to find out more about the Old Testament and what change happened with God in the New Testament.

We know from reading the book of Genesis that God wiped out all living things apart from Noah and his family just as one example. There are lots of other examples of God's wrath from those books.

If you can explain what you think changed because as I've said before Jesus seemed to be a good man so I'm a little confused.

Source Grok
God does not change; the apparent difference arises from context, progressive revelation, different stages of redemptive history, and selective emphasis rather than a shift in character. Orthodox Christianity has consistently rejected the idea of two different gods (a view associated with the 2nd-century figure Marcion, who was deemed heretical). Scripture itself affirms divine immutability: “I the Lord do not change” (Malachi 3:6) and “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” (Hebrews 13:8). Both Testaments Portray Justice and MercyThe common caricature—that the Old Testament God is primarily wrathful while the New Testament God is primarily loving—does not hold up under a full reading of the texts.

• Mercy and love in the Old Testament: God repeatedly describes Himself as “merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin” (Exodus 34:6–7). Examples include patience with rebellious Israel, forgiveness extended to figures like David, the provision of the sacrificial system, deliverance from Egypt, and promises of restoration after judgment.
• Justice and judgment in the New Testament: Jesus speaks extensively about judgment, hell, and the consequences of rejecting God (e.g., Matthew 25; warnings to unrepentant cities). The early church sees immediate judgment (Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5). Paul writes of God’s wrath against unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and future vengeance (2 Thessalonians 1:5–10). Revelation depicts final judgment. The cross itself is an act of justice: sin is punished, but the punishment falls on Christ so that God can be “just and the justifier” of those who have faith (Romans 3:26).

God’s holiness means He cannot simply overlook evil; His love moves Him to provide a way of reconciliation. These attributes coexist throughout Scripture rather than alternating by testament.Why the Emphasis Feels DifferentSeveral factors explain the surface impression of difference without requiring a change in God’s nature:

1. Progressive revelation and redemptive stages: God reveals Himself and His plan gradually across history. The Old Testament focuses heavily on establishing Israel as a covenant nation set apart amid surrounding cultures, restraining widespread sin (flood, Sodom, Canaanite judgment), and preparing the way for the Messiah through law, prophets, and typology. The New Testament centers on the fulfillment of those promises in Jesus—the incarnation, atonement, and the extension of the covenant to all nations through the church. The same character is expressed in different settings.
2. Covenantal context: Under the Mosaic covenant, God deals primarily with a theocratic nation; judgments and blessings often have corporate, this-worldly dimensions. The New Covenant emphasizes individual faith, the internalized law through the Spirit, and eschatological (future) fulfillment. Continuity exists in God’s purpose to redeem a people for Himself; discontinuity appears in the administration (shadows vs. substance in Christ).
3. The incarnation: In Jesus, God’s character is revealed in personal, tangible form (“the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature,” Hebrews 1:3). This makes love and grace especially vivid, but Jesus also upholds the Law’s moral demands and the reality of judgment. He does not distance Himself from the God of the Old Testament; He claims continuity with Him.
4. Human perception and selective reading: Readers often notice dramatic national judgments in the Old Testament more readily than quieter acts of patience and covenant faithfulness, or focus on Jesus’ compassion while downplaying His hard teachings. Cultural distance and modern sensibilities can amplify the contrast.

In short, the Bible presents one unchanging God whose justice and mercy are fully displayed from Genesis to Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for and anticipates the New; the New fulfills and clarifies the Old. The cross is the ultimate integration point, where God’s righteous wrath against sin and His steadfast love meet. Reading both testaments together, rather than in isolation or caricature, yields a coherent portrait.

 

[Matthias]

Well thank you for that comment kind sir it's much appreciated.

I was asking you the question because I'd like to find out more about the Old Testament and what change happened with God in the New Testament.

We know from reading the book of Genesis that God wiped out all living things apart from Noah and his family just as one example. There are lots of other examples of God's wrath from those books.

If you can explain what you think changed because as I've said before Jesus seemed to be a good man so I'm a little confused.

The God of the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible) is the God of the New Testament. God doesn’t change.

Are you thinking the God of the Old Testament is bad; Jesus, the Son of God, is good?

Have you read the Bible from Genesis through Revelation?

 

[RLT63]

The God of the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible) is the God of the New Testament. God doesn’t change.

Have you read the Bible from Genesis through Revelation?

I've found that many atheists and agnostics know the Bible well