JimKnox
Active Member
That day shall not come except there come a falling away first AND that man of sin be revealed. (My paraphrase).
This is midtrib.
Clearly the rapture happens AFTER the revelation of the AC which is midtrib/prewrath.
Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ
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This is midtrib.
Clearly the rapture happens AFTER the revelation of the AC which is midtrib/prewrath.
It does not say that it is mid-trib. You're adding that onto the text. You have to. It is not there.
JimKnox
Active Member
Obviously one does not create a doctrine out of one verse nor out of silence.
For example; pretrib says that the church is raptured after Rev 4:1 because it is not mentioned after that point. That's an argument from silence.
Midtrib is supported by many other Scriptures that I did not being to the discussion because we were talking about just this one.
If you want to stick to this ONE text, then pretrib, midtrib, and post trib are ALL not specifically, directly mentioned here.
Dert
Actually it does not tell us Christ steps back on this earth in those verses when He comes again, it is a common thought that He does. The idea is found in the OT scripture. I don't think it makes any difference, cause when He comes all the wicked and unbelieving are destroyed and then this, the people of God inherit the earth (new earth)
And on that new earth this,
Revelation 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
I disagree. The Bible locates the rapture at the final coming of Jesus in judgment (2 Th 1:6-10, 2:1-8), and there is teaching that there will be no appearance of Jesus until that coming in judgment (Ac 3:21, Heb 9:28).
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
How can the wicked survive this? It is impossible! What unsaved person is exempt from this description “them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”?
Amillennialists take these literally! Premillennialists are forced to spiritualize these away. This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! There are no goats left to enter into the supposed Premil future millennium!!!
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 says:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [Gr. apōleia or destruction];
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth [katechō or restrains] that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity [Gr. anomia lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth [katechō or restrains] will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked [Gr. anomos – or that lawless one] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [Gr. parousia]:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
So, sometime prior to the second coming, antichrist under the control of Satan will be allowed to perform his activities unimpeded – with all power and with all deception. Before the coming of the Lord there is a great falling away. None of this happens after the coming of the Lord as you have been taught. It precedes it. That is you twisting Scripture again. That is what you do! It seems like Scripture is there to be played with in your estimation instead of read, embraced and applied. If you did then you would be Posttrib.
Antichrist is shown here to be destroyed by the coming of the Lord. Hello! He is gone then. This is the end. There is no space for your imaginary tribulation after the coming of Jesus.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Revelation 8
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
After Christ at His coming, is the end...
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
The Light
Well-Known Member
No. We go up before he is revealed as the Church is in heaven in Rev 5 before the 1st seal is opened.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
It would seem you are not accounting for all of scripture.
This is that cloud...which is not a fleshly encounter:
Exodus 13
21And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night."See post 242 I answered that:Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ
Truth matters! So, let's (once and for all) call this avoidance out and your refusal to address these questions. Let us start with the below. The reader can immediately see here that you totally avoided it:
It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
Show me where it indicates that the 144,000 have immortal bodies before the return of Christ (the third coming of Christ in your view, I guess). . Sure. No problem. The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth Revelation 14 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the...
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It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
Pretty hard to wiggle out of the facts. Noah gathered preflood/ pretrib. Normal life and commerce at that gathering. Noah RETURNS to earth FROM THE HEAVENS. Just omit it. ...as you continue to do. Are you actually aware that you need Noah and Lot removed post trib/ post judgement?? What is...
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His return is not invisible or only as a cloud. He is the image of the invisible God.
Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [b]principalities or [c]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
For Christ it is this way presented
Revelation 14:14
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
This is the invisible God, The Father in the cloud
Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
Though even God the Father has a face.
But no flesh can see the face of God and live.
I assume flesh would be consumed
Exodus 33
17 So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”
18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”
All Christ need do when He comes again and is seen by all the unbelieving world, is to expose to them Himself in a glorious appearing, a brightness beyond the sun, and all flesh will be consumed
Christ has a glorified body of some kind.
2 Thess 2
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
Christ has a glorified body of some kind.
2 Thess 2
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Stop, stop.. Jesus as God with us is indeed visible in this world. But He is also the God in the cloud(s) only visible when we see Him as He is and are like Him.
That transition is the difference between heaven and earth, between life and death...and the difference is flesh and spirit. By which some rise unto everlasting life and some everlasting condemnation.
The Light
Well-Known Member
You are taking things out of context.
2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The gathering is the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs at the 6th seal, seen here.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
The Church is gathered from heaven, and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth prior to the seventh seal wrath of God which contains the Day of the Lord.
The reason that there are 144,000 first fruits is because they are first fruits of the second harvest. The Church is raptured before the great tribulation, and the 12 tribes are raptured at the 6th seal. Believers are not appointed.
The Jews will see the Antichrist revealed, not the Church.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The Church is clearly seen in heaven in Rev 5 as the kings and priests redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation
Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Secondly, the 24 elders.......which are 24 elders..........are seen in heaven with crowns. The crowns are proof that Jesus has come and His reward was with Him.
Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
So even without using Rev 4:1 we can see that Jesus has come for the Church before the seals are opened.
Nothing in scriptures shows a 7 year tribulation. There is a final week that begins when a covenant with many is made. That does not meant that the tribulation starts then. The tribulation is the great tribulation and it begins in the middle of the week.
The church numbers have grown mightily in heaven, because when Christians die, they are present with the Lord.
So you have the church in heaven and the church on earth
When Christ comes they are all gathered to Him by His angels, wherever they maybe, as really they are one body (one new man) living in 2 different places.
Ephesians 1:12
KJ21
that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in Him.
Ephesians 2, one new man from the two, this points out in Christ there is just one body recognized by God, the body of believers in Christ, as they are all one new man, v15.
Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.Christ Our Peace
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.Christ Our Cornerstone
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
The Light
Well-Known Member
There are 24 elders in heaven with crowns. These 24 elders have crowns because Jesus has returned.
2 Timothy 4
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
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