The messiah didn't come yet.

[rockytopva]

Well... If the Messiah hasn't come yet the Jews were in for a long wait!

 

[rockytopva]

Well... If the Messiah hasn't come yet the Jews were in for a long wait!

And Isaiah said...

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. - Isaiah 42

If Christ is not the Messiah, the next one has his work cut out for him! Unless it is the evil one... "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." - Revelation 13:5

 

[LoveYeshua]

Of course we Christians know Jesus came and will come again. Jesus fulfilled too many prophecies for anyone to say he did not yet come. it's too well documented to say he never appeared.

Plus the fact that in this end time period, many have visions and dreams about him, this also is well known.

 

[LoveYeshua]

I am now a deleted member? testing

Hi Mono I see you , did I or someone forgot to reply? Cheers

 

[dak]

And Isaiah said...

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. - Isaiah 42

If Christ is not the Messiah, the next one has his work cut out for him! Unless it is the evil one... "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." - Revelation 13:5

Have you ever taken a look at the LXX-Septuagint version?

Isaiah 42:1-4 Brenton Septuagint Translation
1 Jacob is my servant, I will help him: Israel is my chosen, my soul has accepted him; I have put my Spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor shall his voice be heard without.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench; but he shall bring forth judgement to truth.
4 He shall shine out, and shall not be discouraged, until he have set judgement on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

No one from the early RCC would have added those names into the text, for Matthew quotes this passage from the LXX, and one may see this by comparing the contexts, especially the last line highlighted above: it is surely the LXX-Septuagint. Moreover they surely would not have added the names because whoever rendered Hebrew Gospel of Matthew into Greek removed the names from the Matthew passage quote. Thus the names in the text are original to the LXX-Septuagint, and thus, if they were not already there, to add them into the LXX would have made the case even worse for RCC dogma.

Matthew 12:16-21 KJV
16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Luke 9:34-35 ASV
34 And while he said these things, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my Son, my chosen: hear ye him.

Luke 23:35 ASV
35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also scoffed at him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if this is the Christ of God, his chosen.

 

[shepherdsword]

Bs"d

The messiah hasn't come yet.

For the finer details look here: [removed]

The scripture gives us the time frame when the Messiah will be cut off. Only Jesus fulfills it:

Da 9:25-27
5 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[JimKnox]

Bs"d

The messiah hasn't come yet.

For the finer details look here: [removed]

Jesus himself said the Old Testament spoke of Him.
You guys missed it.
Then you conspired with Romans to kill Him.
But He rose again from the dead which proved His claims.
And you all missed that too.
Then He ascended into heaven in front of many eyewitnesses.
You all missed that, too.
All the testimony proved He is Messiah.

 

[JimKnox]

Have you ever taken a look at the LXX-Septuagint version?

Isaiah 42:1-4 Brenton Septuagint Translation
1 Jacob is my servant, I will help him: Israel is my chosen, my soul has accepted him; I have put my Spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor shall his voice be heard without.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench; but he shall bring forth judgement to truth.
4 He shall shine out, and shall not be discouraged, until he have set judgement on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

No one from the early RCC would have added those names into the text, for Matthew quotes this passage from the LXX, and one may see this by comparing the contexts, especially the last line highlighted above: it is surely the LXX-Septuagint. Moreover they surely would not have added the names because whoever rendered Hebrew Gospel of Matthew into Greek removed the names from the Matthew passage quote. Thus the names in the text are original to the LXX-Septuagint, and thus, if they were not already there, to add them into the LXX would have made the case even worse for RCC dogma.

Matthew 12:16-21 KJV
16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Luke 9:34-35 ASV
34 And while he said these things, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my Son, my chosen: hear ye him.

Luke 23:35 ASV
35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also scoffed at him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if this is the Christ of God, his chosen.

The LXX is a fraud.

 

[dak]

The LXX is a fraud.

You then have not even followed the Hebrew text or understood that the statement actually belongs where it is found in the LXX because of about three chapters of context. Moreover, if you understood what this means, you might begin to understand why neither you, nor the OP, nor the modern Pharisaic Jews understand Yeshayah 53. As for your empty claim: you will need to actually do your own work and prove what you claim with sound and solid evidence. I don't pay much attention to opinions and assertions devoid of factual evidence.

 

[JimKnox]

You then have not even followed the Hebrew text or understood that the statement actually belongs where it is found in the LXX because of about three chapters of context. Moreover, if you understood what this means, you might begin to understand why neither you, nor the OP, nor the modern Pharisaic Jews understand Yeshayah 53. As for your empty claim: you will need to actually do your own work and prove what you claim with sound and solid evidence. I don't pay much attention to opinions and assertions devoid of factual evidence.

Right.
Nevertheless, the LXX is a fraud.

 

[dak]

Right.
Nevertheless, the LXX is a fraud.

I see, so it is just because you say so that you deem it to be true.

Hebrews 1:6 ASV
6 And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The above highlighted portion is a quote from the Torah: please quote the Torah statement from any English translation which reads from the Hebrew text, whichever you chose, but don't try to be sneaky and quote one of the versions which also includes certain statements from the DSS, that will not work with me. Quote it from the modern Hebrew text which most all modern English translations read from.

Here it is in the LXX-Septuagint in case you cannot find it in any of your favorite English translations of the Hebrew Tanakh.

Deuteronomy 32:40-43 Brenton LXX-Septuagint English Translation
40 For I will lift up my hand to heaven, and swear by my right hand, and I will say, I live for ever.
41 For I will sharpen my sword like lightning, and my hand shall take hold of judgment; and I will render judgment to my enemies, and will recompense them that hate me.
42 I will make my weapons drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, it shall glut itself with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity of the heads of their enemies that rule over them.
43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

After that perhaps you might explain how and why it is that the N/T quotes the Septuagint in slightly more than 51% of its Tanakh references, while 38% differ from both the Hebrew text and the Septuagint. That leaves about 11% of N/T quotes having been taken directly from the Hebrew Tanakh.

Enjoy your fantasy beliefs.

 

[JimKnox]

I see, so it is just because you say so that you deem it to be true.

Hebrews 1:6 ASV
6 And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The above highlighted portion is a quote from the Torah: please quote the Torah statement from any English translation which reads from the Hebrew text, whichever you chose, but don't try to be sneaky and quote one of the versions which also includes certain statements from the DSS, that will not work with me. Quote it from the modern Hebrew0 text which most all modern English translations read from.

Here it is in the LXX-Septuagint in case you cannot find it in any of your favorite English translations of the Hebrew Tanakh.

Deuteronomy 32:40-43 Brenton LXX-Septuagint English Translation
40 For I will lift up my hand to heaven, and swear by my right hand, and I will say, I live for ever.
41 For I will sharpen my sword like lightning, and my hand shall take hold of judgment; and I will render judgment to my enemies, and will recompense them that hate me.
42 I will make my weapons drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, it shall glut itself with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity of the heads of their enemies that rule over them.
43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

After that perhaps you might explain how and why it is that the N/T quotes the Septuagint in slightly more than 51% of its Tanakh references, while 38% differ from both the Hebrew text and the Septuagint. That leaves about 11% of N/T quotes having been taken directly from the Hebrew Tanakh.

Enjoy your fantasy beliefs.

FYI: the New Testament never quoted the LXX because it is a fraud. Aleph and B are also frauds.

The Jews were so jealous of Scripture they would NEVER accept a Greek translation. The LXX disagrees with itself in hundreds of places.

Too bad you fell for the oldest lie in creation: Yea, hath God said.

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes at the JSOC.

Every English version based on the LXX ( and Aleph and B) is corrupted by virtue of their root. And here you are defending such pig slop and expecting ME to quote ANY of them to defend my position? That is ludicrous.

Rather foolish of you to try and support your claim with a corrupted tool. Maybe if you had read a decent Hebrew-Aramaic Interlinear you may not make so many mistakes.

 

[Lambano]

FYI: the New Testament never quoted the LXX because it is a fraud.

Nonsense.

How Often the New Testament Writers Quoted the Septuagint (LXX)​

Scholarly analysis shows that the vast majority of New Testament quotations from the Old Testament come from the Septuagint (LXX) rather than the Hebrew Masoretic Text.

Frequency estimates

• Protestant scholars Archer and Chirichigno list 340 places in the New Testament where it quotes the LXX, compared to only 33 places where it quotes the Masoretic Text directly
• Other studies, such as those by Swete and Fernández Marcos, find that most formal OT quotations in the NT follow the LXX in one of its known forms, even when the NT wording differs from the standard LXX Greek
• Fernández Marcos notes that “most of the Old Testament quotations in the New follow the text of the LXX in one of its known forms,” meaning the NT often reproduces a Greek reading found in the LXX, even if it’s an earlier or alternate version
  

 

[JimKnox]

Nonsense.

How Often the New Testament Writers Quoted the Septuagint (LXX)​

Scholarly analysis shows that the vast majority of New Testament quotations from the Old Testament come from the Septuagint (LXX) rather than the Hebrew Masoretic Text.

Frequency estimates

• Protestant scholars Archer and Chirichigno list 340 places in the New Testament where it quotes the LXX, compared to only 33 places where it quotes the Masoretic Text directly
• Other studies, such as those by Swete and Fernández Marcos, find that most formal OT quotations in the NT follow the LXX in one of its known forms, even when the NT wording differs from the standard LXX Greek
• Fernández Marcos notes that “most of the Old Testament quotations in the New follow the text of the LXX in one of its known forms,” meaning the NT often reproduces a Greek reading found in the LXX, even if it’s an earlier or alternate version
  

That's like asking the Gambino if he was an upstanding citizen.
What you have done is expose the ridiculous lengths these "scholars" will go to defend the fraud.
"Follows the LXX ...even when it differs".

I will see your AI defending the LXX and raise you the TR against the LXX. The LXX added and/or subtracted from Holy Writ in hundreds of places, thereby proving it's fraudulent nature. The Apostles did NOT quote a fraud, they quoted HEBREW scripture.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The messiah hasn't come yet.

Who said Jesus already returned?

 

[Lambano]

I will see your AI defending the LXX and raise you the TR against the LXX.

The Textus Receptus confirms that the NT writers rarely translated the Hebrew text to Greek themselves; they copied the pre-translated LXX Greek text 340 out of 373 times.

 

[JimKnox]

The Textus Receptus confirms that the NT writers rarely translated the Hebrew text to Greek themselves; they copied the pre-translated LXX Greek text 340 out of 373 times.

False.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

False.

Exactly. Paul was a highly educated Roman citizen so he probably knew greek

 

[Lambano]

Exactly. Paul was a highly educated Roman citizen so he probably knew greek

And as an educated Jewish rabbi who studied under Gamaliel, we can safely conclude he know Hebrew too.

I twigged on this on some Bible study. I don't remember the exact chapter and verse, but the footnote identified an OT quote. So I looked it up, and the OT version was completely different. What the heck? I learned how to use Blue Letter Bible, which will give you the NT Greek and for the OT, both the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint Greek. Oh. The NT author is quoting the LXX. I found a couple times where the Greek cited by Paul didn't match either the MT or the LXX. In those cases, I think you're right; Paul sometimes did his own translation from Hebrew to Greek for his Greek-speaking audience. But most of the time, the NT authors copied the LXX Greek-word-for-Greek-word.

If you don't believe me, you can check it out yourself using Blue Letter Bible. It's a great tool.

 

[Lambano]

Right.
Nevertheless, the LXX is a fraud.

Funny. In another thread, a user took the position that the Masoretic Text was corrupted because the Rabbis tried to downplay any Hebrew verses that might have prophesized Jesus as Messiah. "But Wisdom is vindicated by all her children".