The Spirit Delivers From The Power Of The Flesh, The Spirit Gives Sonship, The Spirit Assures Of Future Glory, The Spirit Assures Of Final Victory

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1stCenturyLady

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“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ”
Galatians 5:17 KJV
Right verse; you also see its wrong. They Capitalized Spirit, instead of spirit. It is a publisher's error, resulting in subsidizing false doctrines.

The Spirit does NOT wrestle against the flesh, because we are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God indwells us. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to Christ." Romans 8:9

That is a total contradiction. But everyone has a sin nature when born, and our nature consists of everything inside our body, but does not include the body. Inside is our spirit and soul representing our mind and heart. Romans 7:25 Those are what is born again of the Spirit.
 

1stCenturyLady

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No, Paul, is not talking about "that" body of flesh--"you do not sow that body that shall be" (1 Corinthians 15:37).
In Romans 7:5 "the flesh is the carnal nature that we are NOT in, Romans 8:9. Paul is not referring to our body that still must die and be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ. It is our spirit and mind (our nature) that is the old man, "the flesh" that is crucified and is resurrected with Christ when born again of the Spirit.
 

ScottA

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In Romans 7:5 "the flesh is the carnal nature that we are NOT in, Romans 8:9. Paul is not referring to our body that still must die and be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ. It is our spirit and mind (our nature) that is the old man, "the flesh" that is crucified and is resurrected with Christ when born again of the Spirit.
There are indeed two different bodies. But no version of the flesh inherites the Kingdom of God. The flesh is still made up of the elements of this world which returns to the dust and is dissolved.

These bodies are merely the "skins" God gave us back in Genesis. The bodies Adam are Eve had before sin [and skin] are the bodies we shall again have. So fulfilling "the kingdom of God is within you."
 

Hepzibah

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Interpreting Romans 7.

There have been two interpretations of Romans 7 which have dominated church history and which are sometimes known as the Primitive and the Post-Primitive. Augustine held to the Primitive in his early years, as did some of the Church Fathers and writers before Augustine, but changed his stance later. The reason that he changed was due to his heated discourses with Pelagius. There have been two interpretations widely held since Augustine, the original and the one from Augustine called the Post Primitive which did not exist before he adopted and popularised it. The third, was held by Pelagius and claims that sinlessness is possible in this life.

We must conclude that the man depicted in Romans 7 is a) a man who has only just come to Christ for forgiveness and has attempted previously to be righteous through obeying the law, (or as commonly known as an unbeliever) and the Primitive view, b) the normal state of a Christian which is held by Calvinists in the main and brought in by Augustine and c) the believer who has come to the crisis in his faith and inability to keep God’s law in the manner that he knows he must, whereby he will be delivered from the body of sin to the state where there is no more condemnation, the view which became widespread during the ‘Celtic period’, and Holiness Movement of the 19th C. There is no other viable interpretation of these texts.

The Primitive view and the one which is widely held today for example by many Arminians, is that Romans 7 describes the salvation experience and Paul is writing as an unregenerate soul. Augustine said: “It is understood that man here described who was never under grace” (Homilies). This is the view that Augustine held until Pelagius challenged him over his view that man is totally depraved.


“In his argument, Pelagius referred to the passage under consideration, saying that this was a palpable case in which, by the universal assent of the church, the state and character of the unregenerate man is described. He then asked, if approving the right, and hating the wrong, and 'delighting in the law of God' did not imply that there was something good even in such a man? Augustine could not deny the fact, the case being so palable, of the universal agreement of the church in the deduction that it was the unregenerate man referred to in the passage; nor did he perceive how, admitting the correctness of the universally received exposition, he could meet the argument of his opponent. Under such perplexity, Augustine denied the validity of his own and the universal, and adopted the few and before, unheard of, exposition, a most needless resort and a most calamitous one for the spiritual good of the church” (J Schmidz Romans 7)

Augustine did not accept Pelagius’ argument and agree with his interpretation. Pelagius was trying to show Augustine that Romans 7 was not to be understood as the so called Primitive view but the Apostolic view. Augustine realised his first view was untenable that Paul described the unregenerate but the second view was untenable for Augustine because it says that man can stop sinning.

Pelagius taught the Apostolic view which is that Paul is speaking about the Christian in Romans 7 but not in what should be his normal condition. Those who do not accept the view that it is a Christian speaking point to the fact that there is no mention of grace or of the work of the Holy Spirit in the chapter. But this is not because there is no Holy Spirit or grace. Far from it. The opposite is true actually. However, the person describing it is not aware of it. It seems as though God has deserted actually, as the person comes to an extreme point because God has convicted the man of his sinfulness. Paul is discussing experience here not doctrine. He came to a point of time when he saw himself as God saw him as he sought acceptance through the works of the law. And all Christians seek to do this unless they adopt Augustine’s position and excuse their sin. and until they come to the point whereby they admit their powerlessness.

The misunderstanding of the early writers teachings in saying that Romans 7 is the unregenerate person could be that some meant an unregenerate person as a believer who has not arrived at the sanctification experience, which was what Wesley meant by the 'Almost Christian' In the Bible, salvation sanctification and justification are all one event but describing the differing aspects of it. This could means that one is not really saved until they are entirely sanctified. Jesus came to save us from our sins and until this is done, then we are still in them and not saved even though we have been given 'The power to become the son's of God' as a possibility but not yet an actuality until the provision of sanctification through the cross, is appropriated by man and he is delivered from not just the penalty from sin but also the power and the presence.

This Apostolic view has been rejected by most of the church through the ages and the reason why Pelagius has had such bad press. By his dispute with Augustine and his understanding of Romans 7, he did not teach that the Christian could stop sinning on his own accord. Far from it. It needed the divine interaction of God to bring about the change or deliverance needed to get Paul from Romans7 to Romans 8.
 

1stCenturyLady

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There are indeed two different bodies. But no version of the flesh inherites the Kingdom of God. The flesh is still made up of the elements of this world which returns to the dust and is dissolved.

These bodies are merely the "skins" God gave us back in Genesis. The bodies Adam are Eve had before sin [and skin] are the bodies we shall again have. So fulfilling "the kingdom of God is within you."
Right. This is why Jesus said, you must be born again of the Spirit. Unfortunately, there are many Christians who are powerless when it comes to sin. They are not born again, so are still in the flesh.
 
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ScottA

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Right. This is why Jesus said, you must be born again of the Spirit. Unfortunately, there are many Christians who are powerless when it comes to sin. They are not born again, so are still in the flesh.
Even the born again are in the flesh that will only return to the dust at its passing. Paul referred to this a "we who are alive and remain" (in the flesh and in the world). Hence, the struggle he also wrote about.

Meaning, the born again have a choice of walking in the spirit or in the flesh--which is not a loss of salvation, or an indication of not being saved--but is the same walk Jesus walked, except He is the only one to do it fully without sin. But this is what Paul meant, saying, "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Still, we too are called to "finish the race" to the best of our own ability--our ability, because salvation is already ours--whereas what we do in spirit, is Christ...Christ in us. This is the evidence of our being One with Christ in God, and is a great mystery and a glorious gift of God unto the Church. This is the gift of eternal life.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Even the born again are in the flesh that will only return to the dust at its passing. Paul referred to this a "we who are alive and remain" (in the flesh and in the world). Hence, the struggle he also wrote about.

Meaning, the born again have a choice of walking in the spirit or in the flesh--which is not a loss of salvation, or an indication of not being saved--but is the same walk Jesus walked, except He is the only one to do it fully without sin. But this is what Paul meant, saying, "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Still, we too are called to "finish the race" to the best of our own ability--our ability, because salvation is already our--whereas what we do in spirit, is Christ...Christ in us. This is the evidence of our being One with Christ in God, and is a great mystery and a glorious gift of God unto the Church. This is the gift of eternal life.
Jesus died so that we too could walk righteously and not commit 'sins unto death. He took our desire to commit "sins unto death" away. I have found that what John taught has been lost. But it is right there. He died so that we could be like Him. Up to the Day of Pentecost and the New Covenant, yes, Jesus was the only one who could walk sinlessly. But the Church put a period there. Jesus walked sinlessly because He was conceived with the "seed" of the Father. THAT is why we also need to be born again of the Spirit so that we cannot commit sins unto death that Adam sinned. Read this:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

See, Jesus was the first of many. This is why Jesus said, "you must be born again." He meant that our nature must be born of the SEED OF THE FATHER LIKE JESUS.

1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
 

ScottA

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Jesus died so that we too could walk righteously and not commit 'sins unto death. He took our desire to commit "sins unto death" away. I have found that what John taught has been lost. But it is right there. He died so that we could be like Him. Up to the Day of Pentecost and the New Covenant, yes, Jesus was the only one who could walk sinlessly. But the Church put a period there. Jesus walked sinlessly because He was conceived with the "seed" of the Father. THAT is why we also need to be born again of the Spirit so that we cannot commit sins unto death that Adam sinned. Read this:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

See, Jesus was the first of many. This is why Jesus said, "you must be born again." He meant that our nature must be born of the SEED OF THE FATHER LIKE JESUS.

1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Those passages all speak to the reality of the timelessness of us born again (that new creation), but not to the flesh and the worldly reality that the flesh does indeed return to the dust and is dissolved. Which is how one walking in the Spirit ought to begin to start thinking...but not to make a doctrine of those passages as is the flesh can inherit the Kingdom, against the greater counsel of all scripture.