What is the purpose of Grace?

[ProDeo]

The whole idea of a gospel on two levels...for the righteous and the holy...is that it is the simplicity that is mainly, by far, attainable by all. It's just that we can't take away the higher walk from the equation to make people feel good about themselves. The higher walk is there for a reason. Those who are jealous or envious or just against the higher walk have the spirit of Cain...as we see here.

The righteous are saved in humility. They will be RULED OVER bu the saints. So then God is weeding out ALL who tear down the saints...both now and in eternity.

We see the pride here in those who hate any idea that they are not among God's special ones. And that pride gets them disqualified from entering the kingdom. And to make things worse...these same people try to STOP others from entering in.

All these things are on display here. A righteous man doesn't know he is righteous. A humble man doesn't know he is humble.

But a hypocrite doesn't know he/she is a hypocrite. So people expose their true selves on how they HANDLE the walk in holiness. Are they able to esteem the saints as higher than themselves? Not usually.

If you ever watched the movie "Chariots of fire" (highly recommended) the man being portrayed Eric Liddel was a very simple man. His favourite bible verses were the sermon on the mount. He never experienced the higher walk...but his faith witness changed a LOT of people. His legacy and testimony affect people even today. That is because he was a DOER of the word.

Calling oneself humble often contradicts the very nature of true humility.

Declaring oneself humble usually stems from pride, as true humility focuses on God and others rather than self-evaluation. Proverbs 27:2 warns, "Let someone else praise you, and not your own mouth; an outsider, and not your own lips."

Source : John Piper.

The problem with the pretenders here is that they are neither high walkers nor doers. Neither holy nor righteous. They are just religious speculators looking to be justified in their sins. My exhortation for all believers is to embrace humility and the fear of the Lord...and LEARN righteousness. It could be that we are spared on the day of the Lord's wrath.

Who are the pretenders here?

Name them.

 

[bdavidc]

I'm not adding to His words or going beyond what is written.....it is His word revealed. The revealed things belong to us....but do you or does anyone understand everything in the bible? No, because it hasn't all been revealed to us (yet). The Holy Spirit LEADS us into all truth....we are in process of learning/growing in understanding. HE illuminates the word....as a light unto our path and lamp unto our feet as we grow.

We HAVE been translated into the kingdom of God, yes, but ALSO........it says in Acts 14:22, that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. So we have been translated into it, but still are endeavouring and seeking to enter. And we HAVE received the righteousness of God, but we are still admonished to SEEK righteousness and the kingdom. It is also like where it says, all things HAVE been put under the feet of Christ, but we do not yet (necessarily) SEE all things put under Him. I call it the yes, but not necessarily yet of things. We need to be seeking to apprehend in real time, get hold of, enter into, these things that HAVE been laid up in heaven (spiritual realm where God dwells) for us. Run the race so as to win the prize.

Another example is where it says we must not "seem" to come short of entering His rest, even though it ALSO says that we who believe DO enter His rest. It still remains that we are to enter it in real time, even though spiritually we have entered it. And the bible says we ARE complete in Him.........but it also says He who began a good work in us WILL be faithful to complete it. I think of it like we have received the complete seed which contains everything that is being spoken, but it remains that that seed needs to grow until it finally bears ripened fruit.......bringing fruit to perfection as the bible says. Another way I think of it is that we do have some spiritual fruit, but it needs to mature and ripen until the husbandman comes to harvest it (take possession) for His use.

Lizbeth, I agree that believers grow, learn, mature, suffer, persevere, and increasingly walk in what God has already given them. But that still does not establish another entrance into Christ or another stage of salvation. Those are two different things.

Acts 14:22 does not say Christians must enter Christ a second time. Paul was strengthening people who were already disciples and warning them that the road to the coming kingdom involves suffering: “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” That fits perfectly with believers already being in Christ while still awaiting the future manifestation and inheritance of the kingdom. Paul says plainly that God “hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son” ~Colossians 1:13, and that “by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” ~1 Corinthians 12:13.

The same thing applies to “seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness” ~Matthew 6:33. In context Jesus is teaching His disciples what should govern their lives instead of anxiety over food, drink, and clothing. He is not teaching them to seek another entrance into Christ.

Hebrews 4 does not teach two spiritual entrances either. The warning is against unbelief. “For we which have believed do enter into rest” ~Hebrews 4:3. The danger in the chapter is coming short through the same kind of unbelief Israel showed, not failing to reach some hidden second level of Christianity.

And yes, Colossians says we are “complete in him” ~Colossians 2:10, while Philippians 1:6 says God continues His work in us. There is no contradiction. One speaks of what the believer already possesses in Christ, and the other speaks of God continuing His work in the believer. That is growth and sanctification. It is not another entrance.

So I am not disputing growth at all. The issue is what Scripture actually calls that growth. The Bible speaks of growing in grace ~2 Peter 3:18, being renewed day by day ~2 Corinthians 4:16, being transformed ~2 Corinthians 3:18, and bringing forth fruit ~John 15:5. What I still do not see is Scripture teaching that a person who has already been baptized by the Spirit into Christ must later cross another spiritual “Jordan” to enter Christ in some deeper sense.

If that doctrine is biblical, there should be a passage that actually teaches it. Growth passages cannot be made to say something they never say.

 

[shepherdsword]

I don't know what you mean by fighting it from the inside....? We are told not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers but come out from among them and be separate. And concerning Mystery Babylon it is the same instruction....."come out of her my people lest ye receive of her plagues".......touch not the unclean thing (her mixture). At some point a true believer needs to get out of there and renounce it, whether any others come with them or not. Same with any protestant churches that have become apostate...we need to walk away from anything that claims to be of God but has fallen away or never was of Him in the first place. That doesn't mean we can't try to reach individual souls........but not by being unequally yoked with them.

Catholicism can't be "fixed".......it needs to be exposed and torn down period. "If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?" (Psa 11:3) The righteous can do nothing in such cases, it can't be fixed...........just leave it. It's like a house in the old testament that has gone mouldy....can't live there or clean it out...it needs to be burned down. Which the Lord will do eventually, when the time comes to judge her, just like He did with apostate Jerusalem and Temple.

Do you think your walk with God is deeper and more intimate that any of the mystics you criticize?

 

[ProDeo]

Do you think your walk with God is deeper and more intimate that any of the mystics you criticize?

I am not Lizbeth but reading what these mystics teach can't be found in Scripture, it's where I draw the line.

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you think your walk with God is deeper and more intimate that any of the mystics you criticize?

Tell me which of the mystics am I criticizing....? I don't know anything about them. I read most of Jeanne Guyon's autobio recently, that is all I have read of any of them.

You mentioned some had been fighting RCC error from within. All I did was ask what you meant by that, and bring the word of God to bear on that particular issue. Which of those scrips do you disagree with?

 

[shepherdsword]

Tell me which of the mystics am I criticizing....? I don't know anything about them. I read most of Jeanne Guyon's autobio recently, that is all I have read of any of them.

You mentioned some had been fighting RCC error from within. All I did was ask what you meant by that, and bring the word of God to bear on that particular issue. Which of those scrips do you disagree with?

All I did was ask you if you believe your walk is more intimate than the mystics. You say you have read Guyon, are you more godly than she?

 

[Lizbeth]

Lizbeth, I agree that believers grow, learn, mature, suffer, persevere, and increasingly walk in what God has already given them. But that still does not establish another entrance into Christ or another stage of salvation. Those are two different things.

Acts 14:22 does not say Christians must enter Christ a second time. Paul was strengthening people who were already disciples and warning them that the road to the coming kingdom involves suffering: “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” That fits perfectly with believers already being in Christ while still awaiting the future manifestation and inheritance of the kingdom. Paul says plainly that God “hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son” ~Colossians 1:13, and that “by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” ~1 Corinthians 12:13.

The same thing applies to “seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness” ~Matthew 6:33. In context Jesus is teaching His disciples what should govern their lives instead of anxiety over food, drink, and clothing. He is not teaching them to seek another entrance into Christ.

Hebrews 4 does not teach two spiritual entrances either. The warning is against unbelief. “For we which have believed do enter into rest” ~Hebrews 4:3. The danger in the chapter is coming short through the same kind of unbelief Israel showed, not failing to reach some hidden second level of Christianity.

And yes, Colossians says we are “complete in him” ~Colossians 2:10, while Philippians 1:6 says God continues His work in us. There is no contradiction. One speaks of what the believer already possesses in Christ, and the other speaks of God continuing His work in the believer. That is growth and sanctification. It is not another entrance.

So I am not disputing growth at all. The issue is what Scripture actually calls that growth. The Bible speaks of growing in grace ~2 Peter 3:18, being renewed day by day ~2 Corinthians 4:16, being transformed ~2 Corinthians 3:18, and bringing forth fruit ~John 15:5. What I still do not see is Scripture teaching that a person who has already been baptized by the Spirit into Christ must later cross another spiritual “Jordan” to enter Christ in some deeper sense.

If that doctrine is biblical, there should be a passage that actually teaches it. Growth passages cannot be made to say something they never say.

I don't think of it as a separate second entrance......I think in terms that we HAVE entered, but also are enterING. At some point we potentially will have enterED. I think of it as the culmination and result of a deeper and thorough repentance and consecration. Laying our whole life on the altar, not just bits and pieces of our life as we see fit because we are still in truth trying to rule our life, or parts of it. To my thinking, it is the Lord taking full possession of the person, His bride, by His Spirit.

2Pe 1:10-11
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I used to assume that this was for after we die (and for most I suppose it will be, like Moses saw the promised land but didn't enter it, so to speak, in this life.).....but I believe now we can potentially apprehend these things in this life.

 

[Lizbeth]

All I did was ask you if you believe your walk is more intimate than the mystics. You say you have read Guyon, are you more godly than she?

No that isn't all you asked. You were plainly implying that I am not worthy to "criticize" her and the other mystics. I'm not comparing myself to anyone, just sharing what scripture says. Do with it what you will brother.

 

[Wrangler]

The Bible says it, not me. Neither passage teaches the “progressive structure” you are claiming.

Yes, both passages totally teach progressive structure. What else does it mean that those who can be trusted with a little can be trusted with a lot? I am interested in your insight.

 

[amigo de christo]

I am not Lizbeth but reading what these mystics teach can't be found in Scripture, it's where I draw the line.

draw that line with a diamond sword . DEEP . when it contradicts the scrips , IT WONT be heeded .
As often those mystics do contradict the scrips .

 

[amigo de christo]

No that isn't all you asked. You were plainly implying that I am not worthy to "criticize" her and the other mystics. I'm not comparing myself to anyone, just sharing what scripture says. Do with it what you will brother.

always with them its accusations and victim cards . Never scrips . dont worry over it one bit sister .
YOU stayed GLUED to the holy scrips . They gonna do as they gonna do , sheep gonna do as JESUS bids them to do .

 

[ProDeo]

Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

 

[Marvelloustime]

END OF STORY A MEN SISTER .
and its not the only dangerous one either . The same entity that first merge CHURCH N STATE
has not left . ITS TAKEN OVER EVEN THE PROTESTANT REALM .
And the all inclusive god that men like epi and others do serve , ITS MERGING A WORLD STATE CHURCH and MINDSET .
OH its of antoher spirit all right . AND its peace will always be earthern , just like everything else
it will BLEND THE TWO . which actaully CANNOT BE DONE .
FOR they will serve ONLY THE EARTHEN but will beleive IT TO BE THE HEAVENLY and OF GOD .
THE MIXTURE . THAT IS OF SATAN and has always been of him .
FOr notice the very first LIE h e told eve .
IT was NOT THAT GOD DOES NOT ExiST
BUT rather A LIE that did what , USED GOD , HIS nAME and said FOR HE DOES KNOW
that in the day ye eat of it ye shall become as gods .
SATAN IS KING of the mixture . HE always uses truths with a lie . HE always has .
GOD however SPEAKS ONLY TRUTH , and his KINGDOM is not earthen bUT HEAVENLY .
they are all being set up .
And for more info on how this can be seen , OPEN BIBLE and let us see HOW often
even the jews THOUGHT they beleived and followed GOD and yet
did not . What did GOD tell them . ENOUGH with this middle of the fence stuff
CHOOSE H IM or baal BUT NOT boTH . NOT TH E MIX sister .
NOT the blending of the two . LUKE and warm .
The mixture IS of satan and always has b een . And what does it feed , THE F LESH .

@amigo de christo

 

[ProDeo]

It's not about this. It is about a desire live at a deeper, more spiritual level, turning from the things of the world and having ones relationship with God fill ones life more and more till relatively, nothing else matters.

It is the desire for a pure heart and victory over the thoughts like lack of trust in God.

Catholic mystics like Guyon had a hard time with the authorities of the church and were often put in jail. They were not encouraged and it is not hard to see why, taking away the power of the church.

Guyon was queen of the Quietists and many thought that she was too far into passivity. I find her writings too complicated though there are good things.

Even John Wesley gained from her writings but expressed caution.

I remember, a few years after my conversion, I had the desire to go into a monastery, just to be alone with God trying to find out what happened to me. Of course I could not, I was married in the between time and we had our first daughter. So I do understand the spiritual need and I won't judge people who have that need. But like you said yourself, be careful.

God bless you sis.

 

[Marvelloustime]

a lie , a false gopsel , catholicsim or any other ism cannot BE FIXED . for darkness and light cannot co exist .
The darkness must be fled . You are correct dear sister .
Let us who are of Christ GO outside that temple . You cannot fix darkness . YOU can only expose it .

@amigo de christo @Lizbeth

 

[Lizbeth]

@amigo de christo @Lizbeth
View attachment 89157

Amen, exactly sister. How I read that is that if we are part of a sinful entity we are party to its sins and will receive of its judgments, whether its an apostate church organization or the world. We are to come out from among them and be separated unto God. Being separate is a big part of what it means to be holy. It means consecrated unto God and no longer belonging to the world or any worldly/fleshly humanistic entity even if it calls itself Christian. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. We are in the world but are to be no longer OF it.

 

[Lizbeth]

All I did was ask you if you believe your walk is more intimate than the mystics. You say you have read Guyon, are you more godly than she?

You still haven't even answered my question, maybe because you're too busy jumping down my throat. How were those mystics fighting from the inside of the church? Were they still part of the RCC, or had they left it in their hearts and are you just talking about hanging around for expediency's sake, like the apostles still met in the Temple to try and share the gospel with the Jews there? Did those mystics recognize that the RCC was not founded on Christ?

In any case, it tells me something when every question or comment about the RCC causes people to jump down my throat around here. I hope they will be careful that they have not imbibed of her spirit and are become OF her....because she is not of God but of His Enemy. Why are the people on Epi's threads always defending something that is not of God? Do they want to be God's enemy? Do they realize they are being humanistic like the world?

Anyway it tells me all I need to know about what you folks are following here.

 

[shepherdsword]

You still haven't even answered my question, maybe because you're too busy jumping down my throat. How were those mystics fighting from the inside of the church? Were they still part of the RCC, or had they left it in their hearts and are you just talking about hanging around for expediency's sake, like the apostles still met in the Temple to try and share the gospel with the Jews there? Did those mystics recognize that the RCC was not founded on Christ?

They fought from the inside by keeping a holy walk and godly testimony that those around her would have missed if she walked out

In any case, it tells me something when every question or comment about the RCC causes people to jump down my throat around here.

Who is jumping down your throat?

I hope they will be careful that they have not imbibed of her spirit and are become OF her....because she is not of God but of His Enemy.

I agree that the RCC is a Babylonian idol. I am just not prepared to damn everyone to hell that is trapped by her.

Why are the people on Epi's threads always defending something that is not of God? Do they want to be God's enemy? Do they realize they are being humanistic like the world?

Why do so many think they have the ability to determine who is saved and who is not? I would be careful about that.

Anyway it tells me all I need to know about what you folks are following here.

I follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now answer my question...do you think you are closer to God than Guyon? Don't evade it...yes or no

 

[Lizbeth]

Would you not want an experience where the Holy Spirit is flowing from you in such outward force it keeps sin from getting in and allows you to walk in the Father's perfect will? I know this can only happen with a special dispensation of grace at God's discretion but I think such a desire comes from a pure heart.

It doesn't always come from a pure heart. It can come from the flesh too......motives need to be sifted and sanctified/purified.

 

[amigo de christo]

You still haven't even answered my question, maybe because you're too busy jumping down my throat. How were those mystics fighting from the inside of the church? Were they still part of the RCC, or had they left it in their hearts and are you just talking about hanging around for expediency's sake, like the apostles still met in the Temple to try and share the gospel with the Jews there? Did those mystics recognize that the RCC was not founded on Christ?

In any case, it tells me something when every question or comment about the RCC causes people to jump down my throat around here. I hope they will be careful that they have not imbibed of her spirit and are become OF her....because she is not of God but of His Enemy. Why are the people on Epi's threads always defending something that is not of God? Do they want to be God's enemy? Do they realize they are being humanistic like the world?

Anyway it tells me all I need to know about what you folks are following here.

And i beheld A harlot who sat over many waters and by her cup had filled rebellion
and fornication to the full upon the nations , tribes , false religions and even much of christendom .
And unto all who did drink they saw her cup as a cup of the time of love and of merger as one .
IT is but a delusion sister that must and shall run its course and all who are not in the lambs book of life
will surley drink of her cup .