Believers who affair then marry are ongoing adulterers yet still saved ?

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PeterAndroz

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Christian church going Fred & Sue cheat on their respective spouses by having an affair with each.
Fred & Sue divorce their spouses then marry each other
RESULT - they are now ongoing adulterers.
That is their only noticeable sin.
Both continue to believe & trust in the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel taught to Paul by Christ Gal 1:11-12.
That Gospel teaches they ARE saved, they ARE HS sealed due to trusting & believing in the death, burial, resurrection of Christ.
...
If their ADULTEROUS marriage continues will the one who dies first go to Heaven ?
 

Pierac

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The question is framed so that the answer is already inside the premises. You state as established that the gospel "teaches they ARE saved, they ARE HS sealed," and then ask whether they go to heaven. Having assumed the conclusion, the scenario is decoration.

The sharper problem is the proof-texting. You cite Ephesians 1:13 for the sealing. The same author, in the same letter, four chapters later, writes Ephesians 5:5: no whoremonger, nor unclean person, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. You cannot cite Ephesians 1 as settled apostolic teaching and treat Ephesians 5 as though it were not there.
Add 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, written to a church and listing adulterers among those who shall not inherit the kingdom, and Galatians 5:19-21, and Hebrews 13:4. Whatever the resolution is, it has to hold all of those together, and your framing does not attempt it.
The New Testament does not describe a person who believes the right propositions and knowingly persists in what God calls sin and is thereby fine. That configuration is absent. Romans 6:1 raises it precisely to reject it. The texts assume throughout that trust and repentance are one motion rather than two, and the question depends on prying them apart and treating the first as a completed transaction the second cannot affect.
I would not go with a confident verdict on Fred and Sue individually. The texts describe the character of a life, and neither of us has access to what is actually happening in two people's repentance.
 
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PeterAndroz

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The question is framed so that the answer is already inside the premises. You state as established that the gospel "teaches they ARE saved, they ARE HS sealed," and then ask whether they go to heaven. Having assumed the conclusion, the scenario is decoration.

The sharper problem is the proof-texting. You cite Ephesians 1:13 for the sealing. The same author, in the same letter, four chapters later, writes Ephesians 5:5: no whoremonger, nor unclean person, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. You cannot cite Ephesians 1 as settled apostolic teaching and treat Ephesians 5 as though it were not there.
Add 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, written to a church and listing adulterers among those who shall not inherit the kingdom, and Galatians 5:19-21, and Hebrews 13:4. Whatever the resolution is, it has to hold all of those together, and your framing does not attempt it.
The New Testament does not describe a person who believes the right propositions and knowingly persists in what God calls sin and is thereby fine. That configuration is absent. Romans 6:1 raises it precisely to reject it. The texts assume throughout that trust and repentance are one motion rather than two, and the question depends on prying them apart and treating the first as a completed transaction the second cannot affect.
I would not go with a confident verdict on Fred and Sue individually. The texts describe the character of a life, and neither of us has access to what is actually happening in two people's repentance.
Your response is framed on the premise that Paul teaches performance is also a requirement to be sealed & saved.
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 is the Gal 1:11-12 GOSPEL that Christ taught to Paul
The performance requirements :-
Titus 3::5-7
Gal 2:16
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 3:28
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1
Conc SAVED & SEALED does not require 'performance'
 

Armour of God

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Your response is framed on the premise that Paul teaches performance is also a requirement to be sealed & saved.
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 is the Gal 1:11-12 GOSPEL that Christ taught to Paul
The performance requirements :-
Titus 3::5-7
Gal 2:16
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 3:28
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1
Conc SAVED & SEALED does not require 'performance'

Peter my brother. We have discussed this before and know we disagree on this topic. I believe good deeds are required, you don't believe so.
Ok that's fine.

But wouldn't it just be better for Fred and Sue to repent and ask God for forgiveness?
What's the harm in that?
Don't you see that it would be stubborn and prideful not to repent?
 
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PeterAndroz

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Peter my brother. We have discussed this before and know we disagree on this topic. I believe good deeds are required, you don't believe so.
Ok that's fine.

But wouldn't it just be better for Fred and Sue to repent and ask God for forgiveness?
What's the harm in that?
But wouldn't it just be better for Fred and Sue to repent
""I believe good deeds are required,""
Is that a requirement to be 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 SAVED&SEALED according to Paul ?
Titus 3:5-7
Gal 2:16
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 3:24
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1
..
""But wouldn't it just be better for Fred and Sue to repent ""
YES, end their ongoing 'marriage' if it will send them to the LOF.
YES, just like when we walk past or see a person who we suspect is homeless yet do nothing though we have room at our own place where we would gladly house a homeless relative or close friend. << 2nd greatest commandment "love your neighbor as yourself"
 

Debp

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But wouldn't it just be better for Fred and Sue to repent and ask God for forgiveness?

Agree. There is forgiveness and cleansing for every sin. 1 John 1:9

It would be better for people not to fall into sin, but if they do, the Lord can still forgive them.
 
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Grailhunter

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Christian church going Fred & Sue cheat on their respective spouses by having an affair with each.
Fred & Sue divorce their spouses then marry each other
RESULT - they are now ongoing adulterers.
That is their only noticeable sin.
Both continue to believe & trust in the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel taught to Paul by Christ Gal 1:11-12.
That Gospel teaches they ARE saved, they ARE HS sealed due to trusting & believing in the death, burial, resurrection of Christ.
...
If their ADULTEROUS marriage continues will the one who dies first go to Heaven ?

It is like this......and you are not going to like it and it going to sound weird from the modern Christian perspective.
Outside of the Gospels the word divorce does not occur. For a good reason, Paul did not give the option of divorce. The conversation Yeshua had with the Jews about divorce was from the perspective of the Mosaic Law, and keep in mind when you read that conversation that the Jews he was talking to might of had multiple wives. And note the Apostle's objections.
The Jewish-Christians retained the custom of the Letter of Divorce, and they died out by the end of the first century. The Gentile-Christians (us) did not adopt the law of the Letter of Divorcement. If adultery was involved a husband could "put away" his wife and remarry, but the wife could not remarry. Paul did not give a justifiable reason for a wife to leave her husband and she was considered an adulterous if she remarried.

The Apostle Paul did not address adultery committed by the husband. Presumably a man could not commit adultery unless he had sex with another man's wife. Shocking! Why is this? Neither the Old or New Testament put a stop to polygamy or concubinage. The scriptures did not put a stop to slavery and concubinage is sexual slavery. So when you read the scriptures you have to understand the circumstances at the time.
So Paul did not address adultery committed by the husband because he was allowed for him to take another wife. A wife could leave her husband but could not remarry. Generally, all references to adultery then are speaking of female adultery!!! So to answer the question of the OP, biblically only the woman sinned. And keep in mind that there were no vows to break because wedding ceremonies were not a requirement until the Protestants made church wedding ceremonies a requirement to be married in the 16th century.

For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Romans 7:2-3

To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife. 1st Corinthians 7:10

Presumably a man should not divorce his wife except if she commits adultery. If a man was not happy with his wife he could always take another.

As I said, no one here is going to like this. But I have to tell you the scriptures are not about what you like or dislike. I don't like this! I don't like this! But it is what it is.

As time went on Christianity made some changes. Christian communities and civil law adopted the process of divorce. But it wasn't until the 17th century that women gained the right to divorce their husbands.

Now as it is today, Christianity does not condone polygamy or concubinage. But technically it is not a sin, even Martin Luther pointed that out. But pretty much Christianity does not condone divorce except in the case of adultery of the husband or wife. That is it, if a man abuses his wife, it is not considered a reason for divorce. I disagree with this.

From there the discussions start.....
If a woman divorces her husband and remarries the Bible calls her an adulterous....so if she remarries is it a continual sin?
If a man is not happy with his wife would it be better for a man to take another wife instead of divorcing his wife?
So then what if a wife is not happy with her husband, what should she do?
And then if a couple falls out of love and cannot get along? Some of those marriages end up on the five o'clock news. What should they do?
What kind of relationships should divorce couples have, particularly if children are involved?
All kinds of questions and objections! So have a blast.
 

PeterAndroz

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So you believe their ongoing marriage will send them to hell. But that contradicts your belief in faith alone

""""So you believe their ongoing marriage will send them to hell"""
Yes based on >>>IF<<<<<
You said ""But wouldn't it just be better for Fred and Sue to repent ""
I Said YES, end their ongoing 'marriage' >>>>>if <<<<< it will send them to the LOF.
""""But that contradicts your belief in faith alone"""
That's why I wrote >>>>IF<<<<<<
...
IF their ongoing marriage sends them to hell THEN that contradicts FAITH ALONE
..
What is your response to :-

""I believe good deeds are required,""
Is that a requirement to be 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 SAVED&SEALED according to Paul ?
Titus 3:5-7
Gal 2:16
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 3:24
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1
 

PeterAndroz

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Agree. There is forgiveness and cleansing for every sin. 1 John 1:9

It would be better for people not to fall into sin, but if they do, the Lord can still forgive them.
Yes yet what if they continue in their 'marriage' ?
What verses from Paul teach they will not be saved ?
......................
How to be saved 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 SAVED&SEALED according to Paul.
The performance requirements :-
Titus 3:5-7
Gal 2:16
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 3:24
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1
 

Armour of God

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""""So you believe their ongoing marriage will send them to hell"""
Yes based on >>>IF<<<<<
You said ""But wouldn't it just be better for Fred and Sue to repent ""
I Said YES, end their ongoing 'marriage' >>>>>if <<<<< it will send them to the LOF.
""""But that contradicts your belief in faith alone"""
That's why I wrote >>>>IF<<<<<<
...
IF their ongoing marriage sends them to hell THEN that contradicts FAITH ALONE
..
What is your response to :-

""I believe good deeds are required,""
Is that a requirement to be 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 SAVED&SEALED according to Paul ?
Titus 3:5-7
Gal 2:16
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 3:24
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1

So then would you say that your not sure yourself, considering you said "if"

I admit I don't know for sure.
That's why I think it's better to have good deeds and repent for our sins than not.

Or are you saying you would advise Fred and Sue not to repent. That's their faith alone will save them?
Well. If your wrong and repentance is required then their going into the LOF.

That's a dangerous game your playing.

I would advise Fred and Sue to repent.
If I'm wrong and faith alone does save then they're still fine. No LOF for them.

That's why I'd rather play it safe. Do good deeds and repent for my sins. I'm still saved even if I'm wrong

Do bad deeds and don't repent then if your wrong your going into the LOF...
It's a risky path to take but good luck brother, I'll pray for you just in case.
 
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Pierac

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Christian tradition offers an old and reasonable answer: people are saved through faith, while their actions show whether that faith is genuine. James supports this connection between faith and action. I am not rejecting that explanation. I am simply noting that it is a theological synthesis, a way of bringing several passages together, rather than a complete explanation stated in any one passage.

John says that the person who believes has already passed from death to life and will not come into judgment (John 5:24). Five verses later, he speaks of those who have done good rising to life and those who have done evil rising to judgment (John 5:29). In Matthew 25, the sheep and goats are divided according to how they treated the hungry, the stranger, the sick, and the prisoner. The sheep are surprised because they did not realize they had been serving Christ (Matthew 25:37-40). Paul, meanwhile, speaks of “those who belong to Christ” being raised at his coming (1 Corinthians 15:23).

Do faith, good conduct, mercy, and belonging to Christ all describe the same dividing line? Or do they describe different aspects of judgment? No single passage fully explains the relationship.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Christian church going Fred & Sue cheat on their respective spouses by having an affair with each.
Fred & Sue divorce their spouses then marry each other
RESULT - they are now ongoing adulterers.
That is their only noticeable sin.
Both continue to believe & trust in the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel taught to Paul by Christ Gal 1:11-12.
That Gospel teaches they ARE saved, they ARE HS sealed due to trusting & believing in the death, burial, resurrection of Christ.
...
If their ADULTEROUS marriage continues will the one who dies first go to Heaven ?
as Abraham in heaven?
How about king david?
These are two notorious adulterers in the OT I can think of.
 

Armour of God

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Christian tradition offers an old and reasonable answer: people are saved through faith, while their actions show whether that faith is genuine. James supports this connection between faith and action. I am not rejecting that explanation. I am simply noting that it is a theological synthesis, a way of bringing several passages together, rather than a complete explanation stated in any one passage.

John says that the person who believes has already passed from death to life and will not come into judgment (John 5:24). Five verses later, he speaks of those who have done good rising to life and those who have done evil rising to judgment (John 5:29). In Matthew 25, the sheep and goats are divided according to how they treated the hungry, the stranger, the sick, and the prisoner. The sheep are surprised because they did not realize they had been serving Christ (Matthew 25:37-40). Paul, meanwhile, speaks of “those who belong to Christ” being raised at his coming (1 Corinthians 15:23).

Do faith, good conduct, mercy, and belonging to Christ all describe the same dividing line? Or do they describe different aspects of judgment? No single passage fully explains the relationship.

That's why I have faith, and I choose to do good deeds and repent for my sins. So either way I should be saved.

Relying on faith alone while doing bad deeds and not repenting is risky in my opinion. You may still be saved by faith alone. I'm not sure but if your not then you not being saved
 

Pearl

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Christian church going Fred & Sue cheat on their respective spouses by having an affair with each.
Fred & Sue divorce their spouses then marry each other
RESULT - they are now ongoing adulterers.
That is their only noticeable sin.
Both continue to believe & trust in the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel taught to Paul by Christ Gal 1:11-12.
That Gospel teaches they ARE saved, they ARE HS sealed due to trusting & believing in the death, burial, resurrection of Christ.
...
If their ADULTEROUS marriage continues will the one who dies first go to Heaven ?
Do you know if these churchgoers are born again? If they are not then they are still sinners anyway until they receive Jesus and become spiritually re-born. If they already are then the church should expel them if it is a bible based church.
 

amigo de christo

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Peter my brother. We have discussed this before and know we disagree on this topic. I believe good deeds are required, you don't believe so.
Ok that's fine.

But wouldn't it just be better for Fred and Sue to repent and ask God for forgiveness?
What's the harm in that?
Don't you see that it would be stubborn and prideful not to repent?
And now a word , a reminder to us all .
IF one has been sealed
OH i say if one truly does believe
WOULD they NOT have had the HOLY SPIRIT .
And what does the HOLY SPIRIT DO . DOES IT HONOR SIN , DOES IT JUSIFTY SIN
OR DOES IT CONVICT US OF SIN . and the answer is the last one .
IF one remains in sin , WHERE WAS THE HOLY GHOST . The goodness of GOD leads TO REPENTANCE
and not to the justfication and ACcEPTANCE OF SIN .
WHERE IS THE HOLY GHOST . the scenario that man left us IS REAL BAD and HIGHLY DANGEROUS my friend .
And it sure makes me THINK , WHERE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT in teh author OF THIS POST .
WHERE is the conviction . and why always the idea its okay IF we walked in sin and even died in sin .
THAT is not a good sign . NOT by a long shot .
IT sounds to me as THIS writer is only making excuse for sin and is a champoin of the judge not
crowd . IF we truly BELIEVE then do we not have THE HOLY GHOST .
AND IF WE HAVE the HOLY GHOST , IT WOULD convict us of sin .
 

amigo de christo

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That's why I have faith, and I choose to do good deeds and repent for my sins. So either way I should be saved.

Relying on faith alone while doing bad deeds and not repenting is risky in my opinion. You may still be saved by faith alone. I'm not sure but if your not then you not being saved
relying on that kind of faith , the faith while doing bad deeds and not repenting , did you say it is risky .
FRIEND IT IS more than risky , IT IS NOT TRUE FAITH and i should KNOW i was once one of the worst .
Anyone claiming to BELIEVE ON JESUS
and yet walking in sin daily , and wont repent and only uses HIS GOSPEL as a means to JUSTIFY
why THEY ARE SAVED and yet STILL LOVE SIN . OH my friend , That one DOES NOT KNOW HIM
or BELEIVE HIM .
Cause as i wrote afore and above , BELIEVERS HAVE THE HOLY GHOST
and the HOLY GHOST dont lead us into SIN and lies
IT CONVICTS US of sin . These scenarios that some of these people do bring us
BRINGS A HUGE alert and red flag to ME .
WHY would they DO THIS
WHY would anyone try and tone down sin and make it seem like somehow
these adulterers would still be saved IN SIN .
The judge not crowd has grown massive my friend and many do come to try and plant doubts .
MANY just desire to hear FOLKS agree with them , cause the more that agree with them
the MORE THEY THINK they must be right in what they do beleive .
AS FOR ME , IF ITS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE , THAT BE WHAT I BELEIVE
and if it is contrary to what is written , WELL ITS NOT BELEIVED .
 

Pierac

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That's why I have faith, and I choose to do good deeds and repent for my sins. So either way I should be saved.

Relying on faith alone while doing bad deeds and not repenting is risky in my opinion. You may still be saved by faith alone. I'm not sure but if your not then you not being saved
Agreed, but let's really, I mean really look at the word repent!

Metanoia (Repent): The Response the Kingdom Demands

Mark 1:15 summarizes Jesus’s opening proclamation: The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the Gospel. Jesus calls for a two-part response: repent and believe. The second is familiar. The first is almost always misunderstood.

The Greek word translated repent is metanoia. In the Gospels, the verb (Mark 1:15 has metanoeite) describes a turning or reorientation. New Testament usage carries more than any breakdown of the word’s parts: a turning of the whole person, mind, allegiance, conduct, and hope. Metanoia is not primarily an emotional experience of guilt or remorse, though it may involve those.

It is a total reorientation of mind and life, a fundamental shift in how you see reality, what you value, what you live for, what you expect.

The call to metanoia in response to the Kingdom proclamation makes perfect sense. If the Kingdom of God is arriving, if God’s reign is genuinely breaking into the world and displacing every other order, then the entire framework by which a person has been operating becomes obsolete. The assumption that Rome is permanent becomes obsolete.

The assumption that the powerful are the winners becomes obsolete. The assumption that death has the last word becomes obsolete. The assumption that the way things are is the way things must be becomes obsolete. Everything changes when the Kingdom arrives, and metanoia is the internal revolution that corresponds to the external one.

The call to repent is inseparable from the announcement of the Kingdom, and reducing repentance to a transaction of guilt and forgiveness misses its full scope. Jesus is not primarily calling people to feel bad about their past. He is calling them to reorder their entire existence around a new reality that has just arrived. That reordering, the ongoing, lifelong, community-shaping transformation, is the life of the Kingdom.

In some influential forms of Western evangelicalism, metanoia has been narrowed to feeling sorry for one’s sins and praying to accept Christ. Those elements contain real truth; the trouble is not their presence but their detachment from the Kingdom that gives them their size. When that happens, discipleship is often reduced as well.

What follows growth in character, a reordering of priorities, engagement with the poor, and resistance to the surrounding culture’s assumptions about power and success becomes optional. These elements mark a deeper commitment rather than the foundational aspects of Kingdom life.

In Jesus’s proclamation, metanoia (a change of mind or heart) is the first step in a continuous process of reorientation. Money, relationships, vocation, political allegiance, and the use of time all come under the authority of a different King. This is not merely a high standard added to the Gospel; it is what the Gospel announcement itself demands.
 
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PeterAndroz

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So then would you say that your not sure yourself, considering you said "if"

I admit I don't know for sure.
That's why I think it's better to have good deeds and repent for our sins than not.

Or are you saying you would advise Fred and Sue not to repent. That's their faith alone will save them?
Well. If your wrong and repentance is required then their going into the LOF.

That's a dangerous game your playing.

I would advise Fred and Sue to repent.
If I'm wrong and faith alone does save then they're still fine. No LOF for them.

That's why I'd rather play it safe. Do good deeds and repent for my sins. I'm still saved even if I'm wrong

Do bad deeds and don't repent then if your wrong your going into the LOF...
It's a risky path to take but good luck brother, I'll pray for you just in case.
3rd time :)
What is your response to this :-
""I believe good deeds are required,""
Is that a requirement to be 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 SAVED&SEALED according to Paul ?
Titus 3:5-7
Gal 2:16
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 3:24
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1