What is the purpose of Grace?

[Lizbeth]

No one corners the market on religious extremism. Although some here make a great case.

The religious ego NEEDS to go to extremes to cover up their guilt and the darkness in their souls. The call to love and be merciful works with the pure-hearted. But we know that these are few. Most just rail against one form of extremism or another with an extremism of their own.

To a person whose eye is full of light ALL is light. A true follower of Christ allows for God to teach him by any means or anyone He chooses. No prejudice. Not partisan.

When Gideon saw the Lord and asked Him what side He was on. The Lord answered "none" The Lord's side.

Bible readers can THINK they know God's ways even as no two people can agree on the same errors.

I believe God can feed us via a raven (unclean bird) if necessary or if He chooses....just be very careful not to eat and embrace the raven. Really perhaps all are ravens in a way.....not perfect and completely "clean". That is why we are to follow God alone, not men. "Entrust" ourselves to no man but to God alone, like Jesus did.

No prejudice, not partisan, on the Lord's side...........I agree with that. So why are you so soft on Catholicism and bitterly reviling against the protestant realm? I knew someone like that once years ago, she seemed to have come out of Catholicism, but was so critical of the church (protestant) we were attending and other protestant ministries, but never a word did she ever speak against Catholicism. It made me wonder. Her sister who we had been praying for (never met her, she lived in another city) had come to the Lord and started attending a Catholic church and quickly lost her faith there and returned to her former life...it was so sad and disappointing to hear that. When I later asked the Lord why some churches quench the life of the Spirit, He answered me with a single word......."artificial". Had to think about it for a minute, then the penny dropped........man-made. No life in it, because of being artificial not alive (organic)...He doesn't live in houses made by hands of man, only in what He has made and ordained Himself. Catholicism needs to be called out and warned about.........since she is the "Mystery Babylon, Mother of Harlots" of this age....protestant churches that lose connection with the Head are her "daughters".

Many protestant churches and ministries have gone badly astray and need to be warned about too (that is why the Lord led many of us to come out of them in the past 20-30 years) but they are not a single world wide entity/institution like Catholicism.

 

[Episkopos]

Imagine someone going to a lot of expense to advertise a product that no one could buy? What would be the point of getting people interested in something they could never have?

Jesus advertised the kingdom of God. The diligent seekers get translated (harpazo) into it.

So then what is the cost of getting what Jesus advertised that seems impossible to get. We buy with what currency?

If we see a mega yacht for sale...we KNOW the currency that is being sought to purchase it....we just don't have enough of it.

But what about spiritual things? what is the currency that we use to BUY into the kingdom realm? Faith. Even a very small amount of this faith can move mountains. How do we get this faith? How do we know if we have any? Well, faith gets us translated into the kingdom realm. The higher walk into the kingdom SHOWS us what faith is. With God all things are possible. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me (in my faith).

Of course there is also a very human faith/faithfulness based on trusting God and His words....but that is all within the limitations of the temporal realm.

 

[Lizbeth]

Imagine someone going to a lot of expense to advertise a product that no one could buy? What would be the point of getting people interested in something they could never have?

Jesus advertised the kingdom of God. The diligent seekers get translated (harpazo) into it.

So then what is the cost of getting what Jesus advertised that seems impossible to get. We buy with what currency?

If we see a mega yacht for sale...we KNOW the currency that is being sought to purchase it....we just don't have enough of it.

But what about spiritual things? what is the currency that we use to BUY into the kingdom realm? Faith. Even a very small amount of this faith can move mountains. How do we get this faith? How do we know if we have any? Well, faith gets us translated into the kingdom realm. The higher walk into the kingdom SHOWS us what faith is. With God all things are possible. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me (in my faith).

Of course there is also a very human faith/faithfulness based on trusting God and His words....but that is all within the limitations of the temporal realm.

Except human faith is not what the children of God have who have received Christ. It is faith not of our own....it is of God's Spirit......the earnest of the Spirit. You put no distinction between nominal belief and true faith. If you don't know the difference, it makes me wonder whether you ever received it in the first place.

 

[Episkopos]

Except human faith is not what the children of God have who have received Christ.

Human faith is all that most people have. Just look at how people read the bible...everything revolves around the SELF....the temporal needs of today or the promises in the future. No testimony of any present glory. So a little discernment is all one needs in order to see where a person is at. If I go to Paris I will find that people speak French. If they don't then I know they aren't from there. The same goes for having a spiritual testimony of having entered into the kingdom realm by the faith OF Christ. A human faith can copy and paste a biblical narrative on top of their very human experiences....but these have no testimony of the living God. Neither do they know experientially of what they read about in the bible.

It is faith not of our own....it is of God's Spirit......the earnest of the Spirit.

The earnest of the Spirit is a deposit of grace...as a sample....for those who have been regenerated by the Spirit. This measure of grace does not give us victory over sin. A sample is meant to inform people of what is available for purchase in full measure.

To ignore that is to literally bury one's talent.

You put no distinction between nominal belief and true faith.

I'm the only one who does.

If you don't know the difference, it makes me wonder whether you ever received it in the first place.

Your perspective is so skewed as to make darkness light and light darkness.

 

[Lizbeth]

Human faith is all that most people have. Just look at how people read the bible...everything revolves around the SELF....the temporal needs of today or the promises in the future. No testimony of any present glory. So a little discernment is all one needs in order to see where a person is at. If I go to Paris I will find that people speak French. If they don't then I know they aren't from there. The same goes for having a spiritual testimony of having entered into the kingdom realm by the faith OF Christ. A human faith can copy and paste a biblical narrative on top of their very human experiences....but these have no testimony of the living God. Neither do they know experientially of what they read about in the bible.


The earnest of the Spirit is a deposit of grace...as a sample....for those who have been regenerated by the Spirit. This measure of grace does not give us victory over sin. A sample is meant to inform people of what is available for purchase in full measure.

To ignore that is to literally bury one's talent.


I'm the only one who does.

Your perspective is so skewed as to make darkness light and light darkness.

So you are saying the faith we received in the beginning by which we received Christ and continue in Him.....is not true faith. God's word says otherwise. And my experience was otherwise too.....I knew it was a miracle of God, not of my own. He gave me that discernment to see it. Hearing the word made me want to believe but I didn't know how.....Jesus closed that gap Himself and I walked out a new person with a new life. And whatever measure we received in the beginning must grow.

 

[Episkopos]

So you are saying the faith we received in the beginning by which we received Christ and continue in Him.....is not true faith. God's word says otherwise. And my experience was otherwise too.....I knew it was a miracle of God, not of my own. He gave me that discernment to see it.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Grace is deceitful. You have nothing to compare your experience to...unless you read ACTS and compare to what a revival looks like. Again, your statements are all about you. A very childish and novice sentiment that has no grasp on the universal truth of God's ways. So you are still at the beginning....trying to build with human reason...wood hay and stubble.

But Jesus counsels us all to BUY from Him what costs us everything. And if we can't do that, or we are not accepted into the Beloved, then stay child-like in one's faith WITHOUT claiming to be anything special. Many will begin in the Spirit and then try to improve on that by other means. Believing in beliefs. Resting on one's laurels or perceived advantages.

Stop comparing with others to your advantage. God accepts those who swear to their own hurt. Allow for the higher walk without claiming to be in it. Humble yourself before God. Otherwise you will remain as you are.

Hearing the word made me want to believe but I didn't know how.....Jesus closed that gap Himself and I walked out a new person with a new life. And whatever measure we received in the beginning must grow.

No. A sample runs out. A cleansing gets dirty again. What I see is that you resist learning...by clinging onto whatever you have with white knuckles...looking for affirmation instead of objective truth.

The Pharisees were convinced that they had the truth for the most part. At least they thought that simple people who never studied the bible as they had could not POSSIBLY be ahead of them in God's eyes.

 

[Lizbeth]

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Grace is deceitful. You have nothing to compare your experience to...unless you read ACTS and compare to what a revival looks like. Again, your statements are all about you. A very childish and novice sentiment that has no grasp on the universal truth of God's ways. So you are still at the beginning....trying to build with human reason...wood hay and stubble.

But Jesus counsels us all to BUY from Him what costs us everything. And if we can't do that, or we are not accepted into the Beloved, then stay child-like in one's faith WITHOUT claiming to be anything special. Many will begin in the Spirit and then try to improve on that by other means. Believing in beliefs. Resting on one's laurels or perceived advantages.

Stop comparing with others to your advantage. God accepts those who swear to their own hurt. Allow for the higher walk without claiming to be in it. Humble yourself before God. Otherwise you will remain as you are.

No. A sample runs out. A cleansing gets dirty again. What I see is that you resist learning...by clinging onto whatever you have with white knuckles...looking for affirmation instead of objective truth.

The Pharisees were convinced that they had the truth for the most part. At least they thought that simple people who never studied the bible as they had could not POSSIBLY be ahead of them in God's eyes.

I compared my experience to what I read in the bible. Lo and behold, there it was....faith not of your own lest any man boast. Of course I am testifying about myself, I can't testify for other people........but based on testimonies I later heard and as well as seeing it in the bible, I knew I was far from alone. That is what it means to be begotten of Him....born again....concerning all who are, not just little old me. But in another way it is a conception and we need to gestate (grow) until giving birth to the Son, so to speak.....sons of God revealed. As Mary is a figure for the church......"what is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit". Yes the book of Acts, a much smaller scale "revival" than that of course, but nevertheless it was of God.

 

[shepherdsword]

Nor does Scripture say "Jesus is God". Can we move past this level?

This is the level you engage others on when they post something that is not implicitly stated and you disagree with. Also, the scriptures do say Jesus is God. He declared himself the "I AM" and Thomas called him "My Lord and My God" Not to mention Jn 1:1. These are implicit declarations.

 

[shepherdsword]

I don't know why you are asking, but I would say no He didn't, since He was unique in that His Father wasn't Abraham through the patrilinear line, but God.

I understand what Marks is saying about fallen mankind being looked at a whole.......the bible calls it "the world". It is under a ruling spirit called "the spirit of the world", ie, Satan. That is why to be saved, one must "come out" of it and not be "of" it any longer. Because the fallen world is appointed to wrath....at some point in time known to God it will not be allowed to continue.

Marks went beyond what the scriptures say. He claimed that "Man" is singular created thing. This is a teaching straight from the kabbalah. The kabbalah also claims that God spoke the torah to Moses in one continuous word without any breaks.

 

[marks]

I asked my question first and you dodged it. Did Jesus pay tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham? Now...answer, yes or no. No dodging, no answering asking another question, just a plain ole yes or no

No, as Jesus was not "in Adam", for had He been, He would have suffered the same spiritual death, and that certainly did not happen.

Meanwhile I hope you see the reasoning behind this, though it seems you don't really want to. I'd hoped to give you the reasoning, and allow you to reach the conclusion. No matter!

Scripture treats being 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' as two opposing states, one being death and condemnation, the other life and peace.

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is the level you engage others on when they post something that is not implicitly stated and you disagree with. Also, the scriptures do say Jesus is God. He declared himself the "I AM" and Thomas called him "My Lord and My God" Not to mention Jn 1:1. These are implicit declarations.

The Bible does show that Jesus is God incarnate, yet that statement I specified was not made. Hopefully you see the shallowness of this line of conversation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is a teaching straight from the kabbalah.

I get this solely from the Bible, thank you very much!

The kabbalah also claims that God spoke the torah to Moses in one continuous word without any breaks.

Guilty by association? Not that I'm associated with the Kabbalah.

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 KJV
45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This shows contrast between Adam and Jesus.

Much love!

 

[shepherdsword]

I get this solely from the Bible, thank you very much!

No, you didn't. You got it from your own mind. "Man" is a collective of individuals, each with their own freedom of choice. It is not a "single unit"

Guilty by association? Not that I'm associated with the Kabbalah.

Perhaps not Mark but you have serendipitously adopted one of it's tenets albeit unintentionally

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 KJV
45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This shows contrast between Adam and Jesus.

Much love!

Where does it say that God created man a single unit? You are trying to jam a round peg in a square hole

 

[shepherdsword]

The Bible does show that Jesus is God incarnate, yet that statement I specified was not made. Hopefully you see the shallowness of this line of conversation.

Much love!

Correct, it is pointless to continue. You will continue to justify your error until the I stop and let you have the last word. You can have it now.

 

[bdavidc]

I don't think of it as a separate second entrance......I think in terms that we HAVE entered, but also are enterING. At some point we potentially will have enterED. I think of it as the culmination and result of a deeper and thorough repentance and consecration. Laying our whole life on the altar, not just bits and pieces of our life as we see fit because we are still in truth trying to rule our life, or parts of it. To my thinking, it is the Lord taking full possession of the person, His bride, by His Spirit.

2Pe 1:10-11
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I used to assume that this was for after we die (and for most I suppose it will be, like Moses saw the promised land but didn't enter it, so to speak, in this life.).....but I believe now we can potentially apprehend these things in this life.

I think this clarification helps, because I agree with much of what you are describing when it comes to consecration. A believer should increasingly surrender every area of life to the Lord rather than holding parts of it back. That is certainly biblical.

But I still think we need to distinguish that ongoing growth from what 2 Peter 1:10-11 actually calls the “entrance.”

Peter is already writing to people who “have obtained like precious faith with us” ~2 Peter 1:1, and he says they have been made “partakers of the divine nature” ~2 Peter 1:4. He then tells these believers to diligently add virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity to their faith.

Then comes verse 11: “For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” ~2 Peter 1:11

I don't see anything there saying that this entrance is a deeper spiritual condition believers may enter during this present life. Peter calls it entrance into the “everlasting kingdom.” The growth and diligence are taking place now. The entrance into that everlasting kingdom is what lies ahead.

Think of a child being born into a family. The child does not become more and more part of the family as he grows. He is already in the family. But over time he matures, learns obedience, develops character, and grows into what he already is. That is much closer to the biblical picture of the Christian life. We are already “in Christ,” but we are still growing in grace and obedience.

Another illustration is entering a race. Once the runner has entered the race, he is in it. He still has to run, endure, and finish. His progress through the race is real, but he is not repeatedly entering the race at deeper levels. Scripture says, “let us run with patience the race that is set before us” ~Hebrews 12:1. Growth and perseverance happen after the entrance.

So yes, there is an ongoing process in the Christian life. We grow, yield, obey, repent, mature, and become increasingly fruitful. I am completely with you there.

Where I still have to draw the line is when that biblical process of sanctification is described as the Lord finally “taking full possession” of someone, or as presently entering something beyond what every believer already possesses in Christ. I still need to see Scripture actually say that before I can accept it.

 

[bdavidc]

Yes, both passages totally teach progressive structure. What else does it mean that those who can be trusted with a little can be trusted with a lot? I am interested in your insight.

If by “progressive structure” you simply mean that greater responsibility can be entrusted to someone who has proven faithful with lesser responsibility, then yes, I agree with that. Scripture certainly teaches that principle.

“He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much” ~Luke 16:10.

Jesus makes it even clearer in the parable of the talents: “thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things” ~Matthew 25:21.

So I have no problem saying that faithfulness with what God has entrusted to us can lead to greater responsibility.

But that is narrower than what you originally claimed. You said, “We are tested a little and if we pass, the test becomes more significant.” That is the part I am questioning.

Luke 16:10 does not actually describe a sequence of progressively harder spiritual tests. It describes the character of a faithful person. Someone who is genuinely faithful in little can be trusted with much. Likewise, Luke 12:48 teaches greater accountability where greater knowledge and responsibility have been given: “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.”

So I think we may have been talking past each other somewhat.

Greater responsibility following faithfulness? Yes, Scripture teaches that.

A fixed spiritual system where God gives us increasingly difficult tests as we pass each level? I still do not see Scripture teaching that.

 

[ProDeo]

@JimKnox
@Jack

I am probably on ignore by @The Gospel of Christ so he doesn't see my posts such as the one on Matt 25 asking him if Matt 25 ALSO already happened since it is clearly connected to Matt 24. No answer.

Secondly in another thread I have asked to explain the below -

Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No answer also.

He needs to address these 2 issues else his teaching doesn't add up.

 

[Episkopos]

A fixed spiritual system where God gives us increasingly difficult tests as we pass each level? I still do not see Scripture teaching that.

Oh my. There is a LOT you are not seeing. Why do you limit God to what your tiny brain can assimilate? Where does the assumption of privilege come from?


To whom MUCH is given MORE is required.

 

[Jack]

@JimKnox
@Jack

I am probably on ignore by @The Gospel of Christ so he doesn't see my posts such as the one on Matt 25 asking him if Matt 25 ALSO already happened since it is clearly connected to Matt 24. No answer.

Secondly in another thread I have asked to explain the below -

Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No answer also.

He needs to address these 2 issues else his teaching doesn't add up.

He probably has a huge ignore list. I think quoting Scriptures of things to come upsets him.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus makes it even clearer in the parable of the talents: “thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things” ~Matthew 25:21.

So I have no problem saying that faithfulness with what God has entrusted to us can lead to greater responsibility.

But that is narrower than what you originally claimed. You said, “We are tested a little and if we pass, the test becomes more significant.” That is the part I am questioning.

I’m not sure how you are differentiating what I said compared to Jesus? Are you thinking test and faithfulness have different meaning in context?