“All our falls are useful if they strip us of a disastrous confidence in ourselves while they do not take away a humble and saving trust in God.”
Fenelon
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“The soul that is sustained by God…is not surprised at its own wretchedness. It is delighted to find new proof that it can do nothing of itself and that God must do everything.”
I can’t start a thread for everyone I’m reading,so I’ll just post here. By Merton:
We are not only contingent beings, dependent on the love and will of a creator whom we cannot know experientially except in so far as He reveals to us our personal relationship with Him as His sons - we are also sinners who have freely repudiated this relationship. We have rebelled against Him. The spirit of rebellious refusal persists in our heart even when we try to return to Him. Much could be said, at this point, about all the subtlety and ingenuity of religious egoism which is one of the worst and most ineradicable forms of self-deception. Sometimes one feels that a well-intentioned and inculpable atheist is in many ways better off - and gives more glory to God - than some people whose bigoted complacency and inhumanity to others are signs of the most obvious selfishness!
We are not only contingent beings, dependent on the love and will of a creator whom we cannot know experientially except in so far as He reveals to us our personal relationship with Him as His sons - we are also sinners who have freely repudiated this relationship. We have rebelled against Him. The spirit of rebellious refusal persists in our heart even when we try to return to Him. Much could be said, at this point, about all the subtlety and ingenuity of religious egoism which is one of the worst and most ineradicable forms of self-deception. Sometimes one feels that a well-intentioned and inculpable atheist is in many ways better off - and gives more glory to God - than some people whose bigoted complacency and inhumanity to others are signs of the most obvious selfishness!
Teresa of Avila:
“God alone is its guide; for at the time of its loss, it lost its own will. And if you were to ask what are its desires, it could not tell.”
I understand why the loss of my own will and desires distressed my non religious family. It was because…they could no longer manipulate me and that, to them, is the greatest disaster there is.
But what I don’t understand is why it distresses the religious to say, I have lost my will and don’t really desire one thing over another, or anything in particular.
“God alone is its guide; for at the time of its loss, it lost its own will. And if you were to ask what are its desires, it could not tell.”
I understand why the loss of my own will and desires distressed my non religious family. It was because…they could no longer manipulate me and that, to them, is the greatest disaster there is.
But what I don’t understand is why it distresses the religious to say, I have lost my will and don’t really desire one thing over another, or anything in particular.
Teresa again: “The soul is unable to act in any way of itself without a consciousness of unfaithfulness.”
I’ve begun to experience that too, with more confusion earlier on about it than now. Now that all agitations have greatly lessened, I understand it better.
I can imagine that someone might ask, (since I asked it myself), but how do you know whether you are acting on your own or God is acting? My answer would be, you don’t know for sure. All you know is your own will and desires and preferences are lost and you have no willful self-direction and you know He guides your steps and keeps you and even if you WERE to make some mistake, He would use it, still, to work it for good and to accomplish His will.
I’ve begun to experience that too, with more confusion earlier on about it than now. Now that all agitations have greatly lessened, I understand it better.
I can imagine that someone might ask, (since I asked it myself), but how do you know whether you are acting on your own or God is acting? My answer would be, you don’t know for sure. All you know is your own will and desires and preferences are lost and you have no willful self-direction and you know He guides your steps and keeps you and even if you WERE to make some mistake, He would use it, still, to work it for good and to accomplish His will.
I haven't read Micheal Molinos "The Spiritual Guide" in LOOOONG time. You said he went out on left field or course or something...what did you mean?
(apologies, didn't want to hijack your thread but I can't find the one where you said it)
Well…it’s like, he taught that you could be sinning outwardly but not sinning in your spirit. I read that in his book. He wrote it. I had a vehement reaction against that. But during his trial, they used his journals, which they seized, and they showed that he and some woman in the (order, would you call it?) had been carrying on for years, as had some others he’d taught. And that’s the danger of thinking you do not sin or cant sin. The only thing I can surmise is that they thought they were somewhere they weren’t, thought the body didn’t matter at all, and…got really, really sideways? There are people in here who say they don’t sin and that they CANT sin and maybe that’s how Molinos looked at it, seems so. I don’t even try to talk to people who say that, how could I possibly help them?
I know from experience that some things can come roaring back, even WORSE than before, and some things you never really had a great problem with can start happening, and you are helpless before them. I was having a problem with food all of a sudden a few weeks ago. I couldn’t stop eating for…about 3 nights (and days, but much worse at night). It was insane and puzzling and I had no control whatsoever over it. The harder I tried to stop it and fight it, the worse it got. It felt like it was something being DONE to me against my will rather than me doing it. But whichever or whatever, it disturbed me. I didn’t just think, oh well, I’m not sinning in my spirit so it doesn’t matter. I just did as I have become accustomed to doing and I said, Lord, I do NOT understand what is happening but I see I am absolutely helpless here and I trust You.
I did not like it or consent to it. I did not carry on in it as if it didn’t matter at all. Was it me sinning? I don’t know. I only know I was helpless against it and it felt like an assault. And it stopped after I said that prayer.
I don’t know anyone to ask who would know about it and I haven’t found it in any of the books I read. I did think, after my problem,maybe there was something to what he said, in theory, but horribly wrong in practice, but…I don’t know.
Above you're describing gnosticism.
It's heretical and was banished from the church even at the time of John.
No such thing as the body sinning but not the spirit.
I have been reading through my old journals to try and pare them down because soon they will take up more space than my clothing! (That’s an exaggeration but not a great one.) I came across this from about three years ago. I can’t draw the arrows here from one line to the next but I saw the connections suddenly.
Faith Hope Love
world Flesh Devil
Good Acceptable Perfect
Faith leads to overcoming the world and our bondage to it.
Hope in His promises leads to overcoming the flesh and our bondage to it.
Love overcomes evil, even the devil.
Faith Hope Love
world Flesh Devil
Good Acceptable Perfect
Faith leads to overcoming the world and our bondage to it.
Hope in His promises leads to overcoming the flesh and our bondage to it.
Love overcomes evil, even the devil.
I could actually add another line there now, at the second place, because faith leads to the renewing of the mind/intellect and how you see things, which overcomes and frees us from bondage to the world. Hope in what lies ahead reforms/empties the memory/emotions and frees us from bondage to the flesh. Love reforms the will, overcoming all.
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"... if weak and imperfect souls like mine felt what I feel, none would despair of reaching the summit of the Mountain of Love, since Jesus does not ask for great deeds, but only for gratitude and self-surrender."
"St. Therese of Lisieux: The Story of a Soul" by St. Therese of Lisieux
"St. Therese of Lisieux: The Story of a Soul" by St. Therese of Lisieux
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
no thanks i will stick to the bible . seems many love confuscious new age things and gnoticsim and etc .Oh no, another book I have to find…
jus a friendly reminder .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
You be CORRECT my friend . I whiffed it instantly . And NO way do i desire that stuff .
As for me I S HALL STICK to the BIBLE .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
gnostics will twist what paul wrote in romans seven . and twist it unto their own destruction they surely will and do .
People act as IF when paul said its no longer i that sin but sin that is present within me
TO MEAN if paul actually obeyed and acted OUT that sin that does so tempt by the flesh , that STILL it would not
be him sinning . Wrong again . same paul wrote
for ye are the servant of WHOM ye obey . whether of SIN unto death or of OBEDIANCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS .
IN other words , WHEN the sin that be in my flesh
does TEMPT me , That is NOT me sinning , however IF I OBEY that temptation , THEN I DO SIN . I DID obey THE SIN
and NOT THE SPIRIT that darn sure ALERTS ME TO SIN .
example . Say a real LOVELY quarter dressed woman walked by , DO NOT THINK for a second
that MY FLESH would NOT TEMPT ME TO LOOK . OH IT WOULD .
And even tempt me to walk up and really get a real GOOD LOOK too .
BUT THE SPIRIT IS THERE and it has always warned me TO CEASE and not heed that flesh .
THE question is , WHICH WE GONNA HEED , the flesh or THE SPIRIT .
And it had BETTER BE THE SPIRIT so as we SIN NOT .
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