Really? Says who? It is dying. Globally: most Christians do not buy into this error. That is because it is not in the Bible. It is a Jesuit invention.
It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
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- Where is the rapture for believers in Scripture, followed by a trib period?
- Where is the rapture for believers in Revelation, followed by a trib period?
If the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?
Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34 they will 'eat, drink, and be given in marriage' up until the day that Jesus comes. This is telling us that life will continue as normal right up until Jesus' return. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.
That's an opinion, not a fact. Ask ChatGPT if you want. Of the Christian denominations that believe in a rapture, the pre-trib rapture is still the most dominant, despite what you say.
Says who? I thought it was invented by Darby or a little Scottish girl, at least that's what I keep hearing.
The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. He interpreted the book of Revelation suggesting an end-time personal antichrist, a rebuilt Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem at the end of the Christian Era.
This doctrine began to fester within the system of Romanism which by now had a few dozen more erroneous and blasphemous doctrines introduced as biblical truths by its own leadership. But it wasn't until 1745AD that another Jesuit named Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz began to really distort the Scriptures through doctrines that perfectly fit the category of the kind of doctrines whose destructive results we are warned about by Paul. (2 Tim 4:3-4) .
Back in the 18th Century, there was a Spanish family living in Chile named the De Lacunzas. In 1731, they had a baby boy whom they named Manuel. After fifteen years at home, young Manuel boarded a ship bound for Spain. He wanted to join the holy orders of Romanism and become a Jesuit priest. Twenty-one years later, the Jesuits were expelled from Spain because of their brutality, and "Father" Manuel de Lucunza y Diaz was forced to leave the country. He made his new home in Imola, Italy, where he remained for the rest of his life. While in Imola, Lacunza claimed to be a converted Jew named "Rabbi Ben Ezra."
Under that alias, he pens down a doctrine which he calls "The coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty." He theorizes for the first time ever the end-time tribulation view. A book with his entire work was published in Spanish after his death.
The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.
Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.
Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.
This is the origin of Pretrib.
Global Context
Outside the U.S., rapture teaching is less standardized. In Catholicism, the rapture is not a doctrinal point; in many Protestant traditions outside the U.S., dispensationalism is less influential, and rapture timing is often tied to other eschatological frameworks. Therefore, pre-tribulation rapture is the most popular in certain evangelical contexts but not the universal or majority view in Christendom.In summary: In the U.S. and among American evangelicals, the pre-tribulation rapture is the most familiar and widely taught rapture view, but globally it is one of several options, and it is not the sole or majority position in all Christian traditions.
It appears globally the pre-tribulation rapture view though one of several views is NOT the sole or majority position in ALL Christendom world wide.
One poster here said...."The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. "
Is that true? Who knows but I supposed they could have connected the dots.
But the truth is the "rapture"...not called that in the earlier days was a well know theology.
Here is an article that tells us the truth...You can read it in it's entirety here. ..
THE EARLY CHURCH
Since imminency is considered to be a crucial feature of pretribulationism by
scholars such as John Walvoord,1 it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though
posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of
imminence. Since it was common in the early church to hold contradictory positions
without even an awareness of inconsistency, it would not be surprising to learn that
their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, “This belief in the imminent
return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly
label the views of the earliest fathers, 'imminent intratribulationism.’”2
Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome,
Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all
speak of imminency.3 Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the
pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.
Amils believe Christ is coming unexpectedly. Imminence is another word foisted upon Scripture. The Pretrib invention of the idea doesn't prove anything.
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Immanancy does not make any sense seeing what Jesus and Paul teach about the second coming.
Certain signs precede the coming again of Christ.
And Christ comes after the 'great tribulation'
We are commanded to watch and be ready, but we are also told to watch for the signs of His coming, which is what that watching means.
As you see the Day approaching, must have some significance!
We are not in darkness for that Day to come on unawares.
Hebrews 10
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
And
1 Thess 5
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
And
Mark 13
23 But take ye heed; behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, ‘the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.’
26 And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 “Now learn a parable of the fig tree: When her branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near.
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man — no, not the angels who are in Heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.
33 “Take ye heed, watch and pray; for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore, for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh — at evening, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning —
36 lest coming suddenly, He find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you, I say unto all: Watch!”
As you see the Day approaching, must have some significance!
We are not in darkness for that Day to come on unawares.
Hebrews 10
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
And
1 Thess 5
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
And
Mark 13
23 But take ye heed; behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, ‘the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.’
26 And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 “Now learn a parable of the fig tree: When her branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near.
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man — no, not the angels who are in Heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.
33 “Take ye heed, watch and pray; for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore, for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh — at evening, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning —
36 lest coming suddenly, He find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you, I say unto all: Watch!”
Yes, it speaks of the immanent return of Jesus...at any moment. It's called the rapture.
Revelation is ongoing since Christ. Revelation lays out its own unique format, letting us know the beginning and ending of each recapitulation. It also shows us the parts that are parenthetical, and gives common and consistent points of reference between the various portions of the book.
It essentially presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). The visions in the book of Revelation are distinct, recaps and concurrent. Sometimes they are looking back, sometimes they are looking forward. They describe the same time periods in different ways only zooming in on different entities or different events.
Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that.
Scripture repeatedly presents recaps in chapters and books to reinforce truths and give us a better perspective. Why do we keep having the same detail repeated in Revelation? Because it describes events from different camera views. This is normal in Scripture.
Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.” Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. While they focus in on the same intra-Advent period, they focus different aspects of the overthrow of the kingdom of darkness.
John uses a lot of literal OT names, events, locations to depict NT spiritual truths. Revelation is saturated in symbolic language. The symbols in the apocalypse serve as effective images and tools that are employed by the Holy Spirit to represent spiritual realities and heavenly truths. Revelation is a spiritual lesson using physical imagery to represent greater spiritual realities and heavenly truths. This includes actual spiritual events.
Mal Couch contends: “Revelation follows: “a systematic, hermeneutical approach . . . Signs, symbols, and figures of speech have literal concepts behind them. Because Revelation is very symbolic (though not totally), there are still literal events embedded behind the figure” (Introductory Thoughts on Allegorical Interpretation and the Book of Revelation - Part II).
The seven last plagues bear a striking similarity in places to the ones that fell upon Egypt. There is hardly any doubt that these Old Testament plagues are used as illustrations to represent the ongoing power of God.
Please remember, the children of Israel were not subject to these awful plagues but were actually protected in the midst of them.
One thing you will notice in scripture that when God pours out his wrath, he either protects people in the midst of it or he rescues them out of it.
God always preserves His people in times of hardship. I believe these plagues (lent from Israel's experience in Egypt when God poured out literal plagues in His wrath on the enemy) are used to impress the truth and reality of God's preservation for us today. Yes, God has and does pour out literal plagues, but spiritually the wicked are under constant and ongoing wrath.
But many Old Testament events, locations or realities are used to depict the invisible warfare between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness in the invisible realm.
This is the problem, happens how? When someone declares, This is symbol, and goes on to declare, sans any Scriptural authority, This is what it means, suddenly they've created their own "revelation", and will never agree with someone who takes the wording as narrative prophecy.
Personally, considering that all the other prophecies were fulfilled literally, so will these be.
Much love!
Taken
Well-Known Member
It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
Literally it is TIMEfor people who FAIL to understand …
What the Raprure Is…
Who the Rapture applies to…
When the Rapture occurs…
Why there is a Rapture…
To shush and NOT concern themselves with what does NOT apply to them.
Glory to God,
Taken
I believe the Lord's return is impending, not imminent. Imminent suggests something is immediately about to happen, impending simply suggest approaching - whether near or far. None of the predictions in Rev were imminent or they would have happened 2000 years ago. At Pentecost the Gospel still hadn't gone out to the Gentiles. Christ couldn't come until it had gone to all nations. How could it have been imminent (any moment)?
It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
Literally it is TIMEfor people who FAIL to understand …
What the Raprure Is…
Who the Rapture applies to…
When the Rapture occurs…
Why there is a Rapture…
To shush and NOT concern themselves with what does NOT apply to them.
Glory to God,
Taken
- Where is the rapture for believers in Scripture, followed by a trib period?
- Where is the rapture for believers in Revelation, followed by a trib period?
- You are incapable of showing us from Scripture a rapture of the Church followed by any period of tribulation followed by a 3rd coming.
- You are incapable of address Scripture or counter arguments.
