It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

The death of pretrib is greatly exaggerated. It remains the most popular rapture view. So, you might want to hold off on the eulogies.

Really? Says who? It is dying. Globally: most Christians do not buy into this error. That is because it is not in the Bible. It is a Jesuit invention.

 

[WPM]

It never stops.....MODUS OPERANDI...another one of your mean nothing cliches.

• Where is the rapture for believers in Scripture, followed by a trib period?
• Where is the rapture for believers in Revelation, followed by a trib period?

 

[WPM]

Show me where Jesus left on the white horse. If you can't then you must retract.
Show me where the social economy of Noahs and Lots day are what the end of the tribulation will be like. If you can't then you must retract.

If the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34 they will 'eat, drink, and be given in marriage' up until the day that Jesus comes. This is telling us that life will continue as normal right up until Jesus' return. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

 

[Jericho]

Really? Says who? It is dying. Globally: most Christians do not buy into this error. That is because it is not in the Bible. It is a Jesuit invention.

That's an opinion, not a fact. Ask ChatGPT if you want. Of the Christian denominations that believe in a rapture, the pre-trib rapture is still the most dominant, despite what you say.

It is a Jesuit invention.

Says who? I thought it was invented by Darby or a little Scottish girl, at least that's what I keep hearing.

 

[WPM]

That's an opinion, not a fact. Ask ChatGPT if you want. Of the Christian denominations that believe in a rapture, the pre-trib rapture is still the most dominant, despite what you say.



Says who? I thought it was invented by Darby or a little Scottish girl, at least that's what I keep hearing.

The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. He interpreted the book of Revelation suggesting an end-time personal antichrist, a rebuilt Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem at the end of the Christian Era.

This doctrine began to fester within the system of Romanism which by now had a few dozen more erroneous and blasphemous doctrines introduced as biblical truths by its own leadership. But it wasn't until 1745AD that another Jesuit named Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz began to really distort the Scriptures through doctrines that perfectly fit the category of the kind of doctrines whose destructive results we are warned about by Paul. (2 Tim 4:3-4) .

Back in the 18th Century, there was a Spanish family living in Chile named the De Lacunzas. In 1731, they had a baby boy whom they named Manuel. After fifteen years at home, young Manuel boarded a ship bound for Spain. He wanted to join the holy orders of Romanism and become a Jesuit priest. Twenty-one years later, the Jesuits were expelled from Spain because of their brutality, and "Father" Manuel de Lucunza y Diaz was forced to leave the country. He made his new home in Imola, Italy, where he remained for the rest of his life. While in Imola, Lacunza claimed to be a converted Jew named "Rabbi Ben Ezra."

Under that alias, he pens down a doctrine which he calls "The coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty." He theorizes for the first time ever the end-time tribulation view. A book with his entire work was published in Spanish after his death.

The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib.

 

[rwb]

Global Context​

Outside the U.S., rapture teaching is less standardized. In Catholicism, the rapture is not a doctrinal point; in many Protestant traditions outside the U.S., dispensationalism is less influential, and rapture timing is often tied to other eschatological frameworks. Therefore, pre-tribulation rapture is the most popular in certain evangelical contexts but not the universal or majority view in Christendom.

In summary: In the U.S. and among American evangelicals, the pre-tribulation rapture is the most familiar and widely taught rapture view, but globally it is one of several options, and it is not the sole or majority position in all Christian traditions.

It appears globally the pre-tribulation rapture view though one of several views is NOT the sole or majority position in ALL Christendom world wide.

 

[CrowCross]

That's an opinion, not a fact. Ask ChatGPT if you want. Of the Christian denominations that believe in a rapture, the pre-trib rapture is still the most dominant, despite what you say.

One poster here said...."The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. "
Is that true? Who knows but I supposed they could have connected the dots.

But the truth is the "rapture"...not called that in the earlier days was a well know theology.

Here is an article that tells us the truth...You can read it in it's entirety here. ..

THE EARLY CHURCH

Since imminency is considered to be a crucial feature of pretribulationism by
scholars such as John Walvoord,1 it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though
posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of
imminence. Since it was common in the early church to hold contradictory positions
without even an awareness of inconsistency, it would not be surprising to learn that
their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, “This belief in the imminent
return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly
label the views of the earliest fathers, 'imminent intratribulationism.’”2
Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome,
Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all
speak of imminency.3 Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the
pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.

 

[WPM]

One poster here said...."The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. "
Is that true? Who knows but I supposed they could have connected the dots.

But the truth is the "rapture"...not called that in the earlier days was a well know theology.

Here is an article that tells us the truth...You can read it in it's entirety here. ..

THE EARLY CHURCH

Since imminency is considered to be a crucial feature of pretribulationism by
scholars such as John Walvoord,1 it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though
posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of
imminence. Since it was common in the early church to hold contradictory positions
without even an awareness of inconsistency, it would not be surprising to learn that
their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, “This belief in the imminent
return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly
label the views of the earliest fathers, 'imminent intratribulationism.’”2
Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome,
Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all
speak of imminency.3 Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the
pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.

Amil belives Christ is coming unexpectedly. Imminence does not equate to Pretrib. It doesn't prove anything. It is another word foisted upon Scripture.

 

[Scott Downey]

One poster here said...."The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. "
Is that true? Who knows but I supposed they could have connected the dots.

But the truth is the "rapture"...not called that in the earlier days was a well know theology.

Here is an article that tells us the truth...You can read it in it's entirety here. ..

THE EARLY CHURCH

Since imminency is considered to be a crucial feature of pretribulationism by
scholars such as John Walvoord,1 it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though
posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of
imminence. Since it was common in the early church to hold contradictory positions
without even an awareness of inconsistency, it would not be surprising to learn that
their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, “This belief in the imminent
return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly
label the views of the earliest fathers, 'imminent intratribulationism.’”2
Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome,
Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all
speak of imminency.3 Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the
pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.

Immanancy does not make any sense seeing what Jesus and Paul teach about the second coming.
Certain signs precede the coming again of Christ.
And Christ comes after the 'great tribulation'