It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

The bible doesn't outright say...."the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation. The bible also doesn't say outright there is a trinity consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But, if you connect the dots a christian can understand the basic principles of the Godhead.

When the dots surround the rapture of the church are connected the pre-trib rapture becomes obvious.

For example I have shown you the bible presents Jesus as returning on a white horse in Rev 19 and another return where Jesus isn't riding a white horse. I've even presented you with depictions of the event. No white horse at the rapture while defections show a white horse at the Rev 19 return. That's one dot.

I've presented you with a social economic picture mentioned by Christ Jesus that speaks of His return and describes it like the days of Noah and not......which don't align with the social economic days of the end of the tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been presented several verses that show Christians....the bride of Christ... are not destined for wrath or the trials of the 7 year tribulation. Another dot to connect.

You have been shown the 7 year tribulation is a judgement for the people of the earth...and should understand Jesus already paid the price for that Judgement concerning Christians on the cross 2,000 years ago.....another dot to connect.

Another dot to connect would be the many mansions (dwelling places) in heaven that Jesus is currently building and the promise of His return to take us there. This fits in with the Jewish engagement and wedding of the times of Christ.

I have shown you another dot with the 2 Thes 2 mention of the gathering and removal of the restrainer and departure that happens prior to the 7 year tribulation. One more dot to connect.

You have been shown that the Church isn't mentioned by name after after chapter 4 of Revelations (19 times prior to chapter 5) and then not again to chapter 20. ....this is another dot.

There's more dots to connect that are buried deeper in scripture that I won't mention.

Dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot = a pre-trib rapture. All you need to do is connect them.

Where are your dots to connect that show a single return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation?

Of course it doesn't. It is a man-made invention that is foisted upon Scripture. That's what I'm calling out.

Where does 2 Thes 2 mention the gathering and removal of the restrainer and departure that happens prior to the 7 year tribulation? I don't see a 7-year tribulation mentioned anywhere here. This seems to be another case of you adding on to Scripture to support what you been taught.

Before the Trib Begins…
And When the Trib Begins…
When the Trib Begins…On Earth…
the Following …

In brief…

To Gods People,
To Believers IN God,
To Un Confessed Believers IN God,
To Un Confessed Believers IN Christ Jesus,
To Un- Believers,
…
Jesus IS NOT ON Earth.
The Lamb of God is In Heaven Opening The Seals 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7…
Each opened… Sends Tribulations Upon the Earth and its inhabitants…
Because of the Wrath of the Lamb, being Rejected.

And They Upon the Face of the Earth…
( as mentioned)…Suffer His Wrath and THOSE Tribulations of the 7 Seals…
and many unto Their Bodily Death.

Some, Gods People, Not Gods People…
Begin…
Believing, Heartfully Believing, Heartfully Confessing Belief…
And Some Do Not…
Some bodily Dying, Some Not.
Bodily Dying IN Heartful Belief…
God Saves their souls.

Next Round of increased Tribulations…
The 7 Trumps…
Gods Sending His Witness For His People…AND
Wrath of the Devil for men Rejecting him.
Still Jesus is Not on Earth.

After the Seventh Trump…
After the Woes…
After The Devils Wrath…
After the Trumps Tribulations…

Then does The Lord Christ Jesus (IN the Appearance as the SON of Man) human men CAN See)…Descend From THE Clouds …
* With his Spirit Angels, human man can not See,
* With Christs spiritual Church, human men can not see…
*And He Sits ON a White Cloud ALL men Can See…
And with His Angels, Begins gathering Men ON the Earth With Satan’s Mark…and Sending them to the Great Wine press of God…


Where ON Earth, Gods Wrath is on Display, for Him being Rejected, and His Great Tribulations of His , Seven Vials, For the living human men With Satan’s Mark.

Jesus Is Still Not ON Earth.

Then Does Appear… the KING of kings, with His Power and Authority to Send into Battle His Angels, to Overcome Satan and his Angels …AND SEND them to Hell.

Then Does … the KING of kings, Christ the Lord Jesus RETURN “TO EARTH”…
With His Angels…
With His Church
and
Claim, His Inheritance …
* Abrahams Promised Bordered Land;
* king Davids everlasting Throne;

And RULE OVER the Entire World…
From HIS Kingdom
According to His Authority OF KING Over all kings and all nations people.
Of “Alive mortal “Believing” men, who were Not Killed during the Tribulations…

And such Living mortal men…live, marry, reproduce, migrate, establish towns, die, new generation continues…building towns, cities, nations, appointing kings over their nations…
Continuing for 1,000 years…

And Much More Happens… Regarding… the ending of the Thousand Years;
of Satan,
of Satan’s Angels,
of mortal men on Earth,
of men on earth who died during the 1,000 yrs
of the Changes that Apply to Heaven and Earth.

Point is…
There are Numerous Angels and Numerous humans that lived and died…
With Each Having FREEWILL to Believe as THEY Individually chose During their Life -Time…
And Each… Angel or Human’s Beliefs… Shall Over their presence ON Earth…be Revealed TO God, and Dealt With According to Gods ORDER and WAY.

Every Angel and Every man, Can Learn, Accept, Believe, Reject, What God has Established is Offered to Them…to Them…and Accept or Reject Gods Offering…

And Further Learn THEIR OWN ETERNAL Fate/ Consequence For Accepting OR Rejecting Gods Offering.

Every Individual Angel and Man…Each Decides their own Belief, and can learn of their Own Fate / Consequence…For their Belief…or Not…

You stand on the side-lines …Never declaring your Beliefs… Accusing Others… Belittling Them, Their standing, Demanding they prove to YOUR satisfaction, of a one liner, of How and Why and Proof… THEY Have Arrived in a Secure Relationship With The Lord God, And Trust Their Consequence / Fate is Secure IN the Lord God.

Why are you spending your time… rallying Against Others…
When, your Own Standing is on Shaky ground?

Why Do expect ANY man in Secure Standing IN Christ the Lord God…
TO entreat the Whims of a man on Shaky Ground …
When he clearly Rejects their Secured Standing, makes snarky Remarks regarding their Standing,
AND then Demands, they Show you in Particular Books, Passages… what is NOT in those Books / Passages.

It is Like Calling someone a Liar, and You Demanding they Prove to YOUR satisfaction they are Not Lying.

You are Confused… No one in Secured Standing “IN” Christ the Lord God…
For one Second, think your “self-Appointed Accusing, Charging, Judging Position”… has one ounce of bearing on them.

Exercise your own Liberty to Hear, read, learn, choose your Standing, and Not worry about an Others Secured Standing.

Lol. Ok. Where is your rapture in Revelation? Without that, all I am reading is your extra biblical imaginations.

The reality is, Revelation is a number of recaps of the same time period in between the first advent and the second advent. They are symbolic parallels. Parallels are common in Scripture.

 

[CrowCross]

In Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

The new Jerusalem comes down after the 1,000 year reign.
Jesus physically returns just prior to the 7 year reign.

You didn't really address my post. You didn't connect the dots.

 

[WPM]

You have cobbled together some historical facts, conflated distinct doctrines, and made logical leaps that are overstated and unproven.



The fact is, Ribera never taught the pre-trib rapture. He may have believed in a form of Catholic futurism, but the trib-rapture is the culmination of several distinct doctrines and theological ideas, such as dispensationalism, not simply "futurism."



Lacunza didn’t invent two future comings. There were other Christians who discussed it before him, such as Morgan Edwards. Edwards, a Baptist pastor, taught a two-phase coming in 1744, decades before Lacunza completed his work, and it was later published in 1788.

There are distinct differences too. Lacunza taught a premillennial Second Coming, but his eschatological timing isn’t the same as dispensational pre-trib. He also didn’t believe the antichrist would be a literal individual person. So, you are connecting related doctrines and treating them as though they are all the same doctrine; they’re not.



No. There is no evidence of such a straightforward chain of transmission that demonstrates Ribera invented futurism, Lacunza inherited it and invented pre-tribulationism, Irving transmitted it to Darby, and Darby simply adopted it. Edward Irving did translate Lacunza’s work, but that doesn’t prove anything.

Irving and Darby parted ways due to theological differences and disagreements over doctrine, and Darby maintained that he arrived at his doctrine through his own study of Scripture. Ultimately, you don’t either Ribera or Lacunza to arrive at the pre-trib rapture. There were elements of the pre-trib doctrine that existed long before any of them were born.

Not true. You promote Jesuit heresy. Morgan Edwards never espoused that nonsense. He had to write a hypothetical thesis at College which he never held to or taught during his ministry. So that is another Pretrib lie. The roots of your error is in Romanism. Why not be honest? Is that too much to ask of Pretribbers? Sadly, they manipulate history the way they manipulate the Word of God

 

[CrowCross]

Of course it doesn't. It is a man-made invention that is foisted upon Scripture. That's what I'm calling out.

You can call it out all you want....I'm going up.

 

[WPM]

The new Jerusalem comes down after the 1,000 year reign.
Jesus physically returns just prior to the 7 year reign.

You didn't really address my post. You didn't connect the dots.

Not so. I showed you that that occurs at the second coming. That is the end. That is when the general resurrection and general judgment occur. Scripture forbids your teaching.

 

[WPM]

You can call it out all you want....I'm going up.

Lol. You guys have zero Scripture. Your theology is an illusion. It is a Jesuit invention. You have bought into the lie of the enemy.

Not one of you can actually support your imaginations by hard Scripture. That's why you are all running. That's why you are all avoiding. That's why all the ad hominem.

Pretrib is dead in the water.

 

[Taken]

Please don't be ignorant. You know exactly what I'm saying.

I don’t know you. I went by what you DID Say, Not by what you after the fact “meant!”…

It is NOT ignorant to believe what people say for themselves.
It IS Ignorant to pretend you are a mind reader and Know a Strangers thoughts.

Discussions of Spiritual Things IS Challenging enough without Presumptions, assumptions and Guessing thrown into the mix.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Lol. You guys have zero Scripture. Your theology is an illusion. It is a Jesuit invention. You have bought into the lie of the enemy.

Not one of you can actually support your imaginations by hard Scripture. That's why you are all running. That's why you are all avoiding. That's why all the ad hominem.

Pretrib is dead in the water.

Pretrib HAPPENS IN the Water With the Wholly Righteous IN Attendance…

You simply can NOT Understand What Does NOT Apply to you…
And bathering on and on how you are Not included…
IS …What? to whom it Does Apply…?

What? Nothing… Your consequences Are For You, per your Standing.
Same as Others consequences Are For Them, per their Standing.

You Want to Experience the Trib and Wrath from Heaven…
That’s You…
Stop worrying about what Others Have Chosen.

 

[WPM]

Pretrib HAPPENS IN the Water With the Wholly Righteous IN Attendance…

You simply can NOT Understand What Does NOT Apply to you…
And bathering on and on how you are Not included…
IS …What? to whom it Does Apply…?

What? Nothing… Your consequences Are For You, per your Standing.
Same as Others consequences Are For Them, per their Standing.

You Want to Experience the Trib and Wrath from Heaven…
That’s You…
Stop worrying about what Others Have Chosen.

Your posts are filled with personal opinion. None of you can actually support biblically what you are claiming.

 

[WPM]

The new Jerusalem comes down after the 1,000 year reign.
Jesus physically returns just prior to the 7 year reign.

You didn't really address my post. You didn't connect the dots.

What you miss is that heaven comes to earth at the one and only future coming of Christ. You ignore that. The new Jerusalem comes down to the new regenerated earth when Jesus comes. Jesus said, in John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Something we should establish here due to the array of false teaching floating around on the subject: whilst this eternal abode Christ is currently preparing for His people is now in heaven there is no proof in this text that this city will remain in heaven after His coming. Jesus simply promises: “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Where Christ is at His appearing is where the heavenly city with its many mansions will be. This closely connects Christ to the holy city. One could take from this statement that the New Jerusalem will appear with Christ. It would be wise to see whether there is other Scripture to support or negate such a hypothesis.

Christ here directly addresses the undoubted concern of His disciples just prior to His heavenly removal. He clearly intended to convey a real sense of hope and comfort to His troubled disciples, in this reading, who were evidently concerned at the thought of the His impending departure. In doing so, He advanced some precious Divine truths, which are deserving of our careful consideration and note, none more so than the fact that He was assuredly returning for His saints. He plainly and succinctly declares, “if I go…I will come again.” This is the great assurance for every believer, that, yet, for a short season he is faced with earthly trials, tribulations and separation, it is but nothing in comparison to that place and condition which awaits God’s heavenly people.

The next thing of note we see is that Christ was, shortly after this incident, going to His “Father’s house” – heaven – to “prepare a place” for His people. That “place,” which was undoubtedly heavenly, and its final manifestation, is clearly identified here with the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The word rendered “prepare” here, in the King James Version, is the Greek word hetoimasoo which simply means ‘to make ready’. Therefore, Christ is presently preparing, or making ready, a heavenly abode for the redeemed of God, which they will inhabit at His glorious final all-consummating second coming.

 

[WPM]

The new Jerusalem comes down after the 1,000 year reign.
Jesus physically returns just prior to the 7 year reign.

You didn't really address my post. You didn't connect the dots.

In Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

 

[Taken]

Lol.

Utterly Weird, you are amused at you own Ignorance.

Ok. Where is your rapture in Revelation?

The extent you go through to speak and continually verify your ignorance IS beyond laughable.

There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations as you have repeatedly asked and been told There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations…

Revelations…REVEALS what has “Not yet “ IN the Order of things comes to PASS.
Duh!!!
The Rapture Occurs BEFORE the Trib and Wrath in Revelations…and REVEALINGS of what Happen THEREAFTER!
Duh!!!

Without that, all I am reading is your extra biblical imaginations.

The reality is, Revelation is a number of recaps of the same time period in between the first advent and the second advent. They are symbolic parallels. Parallels are common in Scripture.

They who ARE participants of the Rapture…
ARE situated Above the Earth, Having A Blissful, Face to Face Meet and Greet with their Lord and Fellow Christs Church members….

While the Unrighteous (apparently including you) upon the Face of the Earth are…scrambling, while the Seals, Trumps, Woes, Vials…are systematically being delivered upon the Earth.

Stop worrying about Others. I’m surely not worrying about you.

 

[WPM]

Utterly Weird, you are amused at you own Ignorance.


The extent you go through to speak and continually verify your ignorance IS beyond laughable.

There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations as you have repeatedly asked and been told There IS NO Rapture IN Revelations…

Revelations…REVEALS what has “Not yet “ IN the Order of things comes to PASS.
Duh!!!
The Rapture Occurs BEFORE the Trib and Wrath in Revelations…and REVEALINGS of what Happen THEREAFTER!
Duh!!!




They who ARE participants of the Rapture…
ARE situated Above the Earth, Having A Blissful, Face to Face Meet and Greet with their Lord and Fellow Christs Church members….

While the Unrighteous (apparently including you) upon the Face of the Earth are…scrambling, while the Seals, Trumps, Woes, Vials…are systematically being delivered upon the Earth.

Stop worrying about Others. I’m surely not worrying about you.

One post of yours contradicts another post of yours. All I'm seeing is your theological ramblings. They do not add up and they do not make sense. That sums up your theology.

 

[Taken]

What you miss is that heaven comes to earth at the one and only future coming of Christ.

Eh, Erroneous Claim.

You ignore that.

Ofcourse. Because it is Not True.

Jesus’ COMING…is He Traveling.
Jesus” Arrival is He ON Earth.
Jesus Ruling His Kingdom ON Earth is a Time specific Event.
A new Heaven, New Earth, Arrival of New Jerusalem is another Specific Time Event.

The new Jerusalem comes down to the new regenerated earth when Jesus comes. Jesus said, in John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

That is NOT exclusive to End Days…
For Centuries…Jesus has been Receiving saved souls in Heaven (departed out of dead faithful men,) in A Prepared place…for them to be With Jesus.

Jesus will also receive His Saved Souls in the Clouds, that THEY will be with Him forever.


(Even when He Return to Earth!)

 

[Taken]

One post of yours contradicts another post of yours. All I'm seeing is your theological ramblings. They do not add up and they do not make sense. That sums up your theology.

Nothing new…
I was Foretold that Gods Knowledge would Be …”ATTEMPTED” by men using their Carnal Minds to UNDERSTAND Gods Word…
And FAIL…
Because God IS Spirit…
His Word Is Spirit…
And it Requires A Man having a Born Again Spirit to “Understand” Gods Word..

Thus…a Man Trying to Understand Gods Word with his Carnal Logical thinking, make sense concluding MIND…IS a Fail.

Spiritual Understanding …. IS NOT Supposed to “make Sense”…
To a Carnal Thinker, A Carnal conclusion!

 

[WPM]

Eh, Erroneous Claim.

Ofcourse. Because it is Not True.

Jesus’ COMING…is He Traveling.
Jesus” Arrival is He ON Earth.
Jesus Ruling His Kingdom ON Earth is a Time specific Event.
A new Heaven, New Earth, Arrival of New Jerusalem is another Specific Time Event.

That is NOT exclusive to End Days…
For Centuries…Jesus has been Receiving saved souls in Heaven (departed out of dead faithful men,) in A Prepared place…for them to be With Jesus.

Jesus will also receive His Saved Souls in the Clouds, that THEY will be with Him forever.


(Even when He Return to Earth!)

He said if I go I will come again. He is talking about His second coming. He is talking about His one and only future final climatic coming.

 

[WPM]

The new Jerusalem comes down after the 1,000 year reign.
Jesus physically returns just prior to the 7 year reign.

You didn't really address my post. You didn't connect the dots.

Surprise surprise. Zero Scripture - once more.

 

[Taken]

He said if I go I will come again. He is talking about His second coming. He is talking about His one and only future final climatic coming.

So?

No one is Disputing He Will Come AGAIN…

Come AGAIN… IS having RETURNED to Earth…

Where He Goes and Pauses BEFORE He RETURNS TO Earth… is His Prerogative….and Not a surprise, Since His Word of Knowledge INForms Us.

 

[WPM]

Nothing new…
I was Foretold that Gods Knowledge would Be …”ATTEMPTED” by men using their Carnal Minds to UNDERSTAND Gods Word…
And FAIL…
Because God IS Spirit…
His Word Is Spirit…
And it Requires A Man having a Born Again Spirit to “Understand” Gods Word..

Thus…a Man Trying to Understand Gods Word with his Carnal Logical thinking, make sense concluding MIND…IS a Fail.

Spiritual Understanding …. IS NOT Supposed to “make Sense”…
To a Carnal Thinker, A Carnal conclusion!

More noise. Zero Scripture. Pretrib MO.

 

[WPM]

So?

No one is Disputing He Will Come AGAIN…

Come AGAIN… IS having RETURNED to Earth…

Where He Goes and Pauses BEFORE He RETURNS TO Earth… is His Prerogative….and Not a surprise, Since His Word of Knowledge INForms Us.

That is what He is teaching in that passage. You explain it away - as you do.

We come back to earth at His return. We are then into eternity. We are looking for the new earth. Check 2 Peter 3 and Rev 21.