What is the purpose of Grace?

[Episkopos]

So you don't agree with Episkopos regarding imputed righteousness? I wonder you have never refuted him on that......it is very important foundational doctrine.

You want God's righteousness imputed to you. But only God is as righteous as God. God would never consider us to be as righteous as He is. God would never impute His power to us. God would never attribute to us a level of holiness that He possesses.

God doesn't inspect us and declare we are as righteous as He is. Quite the opposite. He sees that we are depraved without Him.

The fact that you don't know that means you are building on an ENTIRELY different foundation than Christ. And even if you did, giving you the benefit of the doubt, it would be wood, hay and stubble.

The truth is that those who enter INTO Christ are COVERED with God's righteousness. Which is unknown among those who name and claim based on bible reading. Otherwise God imputes righteousness....to the righteous. To those who DO righteousness and obey His laws. God also imputes iniquity to those who do iniquity and are lawless. Blessed is he who departs from iniquity, so that he no longer can have iniquity imputed (attributed) to him/her.

This whole narrative is fully misunderstood.

 

[Lambano]

Yeah, been a few decades since I read it. He has Wick's election as corporate action pretty well detailed.

Yeah, Elect in the Son has been on my Books to Read list for some time now.

 

[shepherdsword]

Yeah, Elect in the Son has been on my Books to Read list for some time now.

The sequel. I read it too...about 30 years ago...lol

 

[Lizbeth]

Imputed righteousness has nothing to do with God's grace. What we can do is not based on grace. It is based on obedience and faith in what God says. Grace is based on what God can do through a man.

Some people don't realize there is a difference between the limitations of a man, and what a man can do through Christ.

Rom 4:1-10

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to
Abraham for righteousness.

Rom 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree that it is GOD who imputes the righteousness and not we ourselves.

Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

The problem with some is that they are FULL of guile and claim God's righteousness for themselves

I also agree that many who think they have arrived at the Kingdom have a form of the Laodicean spirit. "I am rich and have need of nothing" but in reality they are blind wretched and naked. I don't agree with everything Epi says but I think his warnings need to be considered. Do you think you are all God would have you to be? Are you open for correction? Can God use even a totally lost person to bring it to you? How about another follower of Christ? How about even one you judge not to be?

Of course it is God who imputes the righteousness..........that is what scripture says and we need to believe it don't we? How can we give God thanks and praise for it if we don't believe it? I don't think we should deny God's word.

Righteousness is being imputed because God is not imputing our sins to us, ie, He is forgiving our sins (by grace through faith). It is also because of the new man in us.

Yes there are those in the church who think it ends there, but it is only the beginning and part of the story. We have our part too in how we run our race in this life. No guile...yes, being honest with ourselves and with God. We need to acknowledge and confess our sins/shortcomings/weaknesses etc as the Lord reveals them to us.

 

[Episkopos]

Rom 4:1-10

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Who believed God? Abraham did. Did that please God? Yes.So then based on what Abraham did (not what Jesus did) ....it was counted for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

When we do something of ourselves it isn't grace...but we owe it to God.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Righteousness can be counted to a person by faith...even if that person isn't a believer since God justifies people who aren't believers.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

A faithful man, who can find?

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputes not iniquity (AVON), and in whose spirit there is no guile. Ps 32:2

Here is the actual verse in context. Does God place guile in a person's spirit? Or does God call it out ?

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to
Abraham for righteousness.

God justifies by faith OR by works. But Paul is only interested here in the fact that God justifies by faith. Why? See the next verse...

Rom 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

Only faith can unleash grace. No amount of works can get a person translated into the kingdom of God. The precedent for the New Covenant is Abraham who was justified for his own faith. However, that model is but a parallel to the much greater power unleashed by grace through faith. From our faith to the faith OF Christ. Same model...different realm. Same process, different power.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Purpose of Grace?:

Precious friend(s), please be Encouraged And Edified In this partial answer(?) to this great question:

"...silence isn’t always the result of an inability to communicate or as haunting as this [ "Sounds Of Silence" ]
tune presents. Sometimes, silence is the quiet before the storm, the peace before the inevitable turmoil.
Sometimes, silence is, in fact, a gift.

In his book The Silence of God, Sir Robert Anderson said, “A silent heaven is the greatest mystery of our
existence.” Anderson’s point is not, nor mine here, that God is entirely silent today, for as long as His
Word is preached, taught, and read, God is actively speaking to the World. He has not gone by the wayside
or abandoned this world. To be clear, God still has much to say today, but to hear Him, man must go to
His Word, the Bible!...

...
JUDGMENT POSTPONED

“But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in​

mercy and truth” (Psa. 86:15).​

One of the great advantages of rightly dividing the Scriptures is knowing that we live in the
dispensation of grace, but to fully grasp our situation, we need to know what that truth means
in relation to God’s judgment. God is dispensing grace today, not judgment. Rightly dividing is
not simply about what we have been given—a new heavenly hope, a new gospel, a new
commission, or even a new Apostle, but also what we were not and are not being given—
God’s judgment! ... (D Hosfeld)

Full study:

The Silence of Grace



-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[Lizbeth]

When we do something of ourselves it isn't grace...but we owe it to God.

You took that completely out of context. It is saying God would owe it to someone to forgive them (impute righteousness) if it were based on works.......but believers have been forgiven (imputed righteousness) based on mercy and grace, not because it is owed to them as a debt because of works.

Not surprisingly you're taking the rest of it out of context too and making a hash of it.

Faith to believe was a gift too.........we didn't choose Him, He chose us........just like He chose Abraham and called him. And the bible says no man living is justified by deeds of the Law (their own righteousness).

All in all you are turning God's word upside down.

 

[Episkopos]

You took that completely out of context. It is saying God would owe it to someone to forgive them (impute righteousness) if it were based on works.......but believers have been forgiven (imputed righteousness) based on mercy and grace, not because it is owed to them as a debt because of works.

Not surprisingly you're taking the rest of it out of context too and making a hash of it.

Faith to believe was a gift too.........we didn't choose Him, He chose us........just like He chose Abraham and called him. And the bible says no man living is justified by deeds of the Law (their own righteousness).

All in all you are turning God's word upside down.

The bible also says that NO MAN living is justified before Him. So that destroys your name and claim scheme.






And Jesus didn't come to forgive sins but to destroy the works of the devil. So your whole scheme has nothing to do with the gospel.

 

[bdavidc]

It is both. Have you not heard of the word of God being a DOUBLE edged sword? Of course, you won't understand that. But more than one thing can be true at the same time. If you are still teachable, you could unlearn being unlearned...

No, it is not “both.” You are adding your own spiritual theory to the gospel and then hiding it behind the phrase “double-edged sword.”

Hebrews 4:12 says the Word of God is “quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword.” It means God’s Word penetrates and exposes the heart. It does not mean the gospel has two different sides, one revealed in Scripture and another invented by you. That is a dishonest misuse of the verse.

Paul defined the gospel plainly: “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day” (1 Corinthians 15:3–4). Fallen sinners are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Your teaching about innocent people falling and progressing into some higher spiritual class is not the other edge of the gospel. It is another gospel.

Paul did not say two contradictory gospels could both be true. He said, “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).

And spare me the condescending talk about whether I am “still teachable.” I am teachable, but Scripture has already taught me not to be fooled by men who disguise private revelations and invented doctrines as deeper spiritual knowledge. “Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge” (Proverbs 19:27).

Teachability does not mean bowing before every self-appointed spiritual master who writes books and claims to possess truths ordinary believers supposedly cannot understand. Scripture warns that false teachers “through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you” (2 Peter 2:3). I will judge your teaching by Scripture, not Scripture by your teaching.

I will also warn others plainly about what you are doing. Christians should not follow your teaching or buy into your books simply because you wrap speculation in spiritual-sounding language. Paul said, “Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” (Romans 16:17).

You have repeatedly belittled those who demand Scripture while failing to establish your claims from Scripture. That is not spiritual maturity. It is pride hiding behind mysticism. Stop twisting Bible phrases to support doctrines they never taught, repent of corrupting the gospel, and return to what is actually written.

 

[Lizbeth]

The bible also says that NO MAN living is justified before Him. So that destroys your name and claim scheme.






And Jesus didn't come to forgive sins but to destroy the works of the devil. So your whole scheme has nothing to do with the gospel.

No man living is justified before God......in his own right. That is WHY a Saviour is needed.

Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law (own righteousness) there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What are the works of the devil? Death and bondage to sin. Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ is how the Lord destroys the devil's works. Because forgiveness looses one from the judgment of dominion/bondage to sin and it's condemnation of death. It's not forgiveness based on a whim of God, it's forgiveness based on faith in Christ the Saviour who paid the price for it.

 

[PeterAndroz]

No man living is justified before God......in his own right. That is WHY a Saviour is needed.

Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law (own righteousness) there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What are the works of the devil? Death and bondage to sin. Forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ is how the Lord destroys the devil's works. Because forgiveness looses one from the judgment of dominion/bondage to sin and it's condemnation of death. It's not forgiveness based on a whim of God, it's forgiveness based on faith in Christ the Saviour who paid the price for it.

Rom 3:28 <<<< YES !!!!
and further supported by :-
Titus 3:5-7
Gal 2:16
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1
Keep up the good fight Liz :)

 

[Wrangler]

The gospel is not that innocent people eventually fall and then progress toward some higher spiritual state. The gospel is that fallen sinners need Christ, and that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

It is both. Have you not heard of the word of God being a DOUBLE edged sword? Of course, you won't understand that. But more than one thing can be true at the same time.

No, it is not “both.” You are adding your own spiritual theory to the gospel and then hiding it behind the phrase “double-edged sword.”

If what you are saying is true @bdavidc, that the Gospel doesn’t include the process of sanctification, what fool repeatedly told us to sin no more and be perfect? Matthew 5:48 (The Voice)
But you are called to something higher: “Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

And why did this wrong command get issued?

The alternative is the son of God died a brutal death so we could keep sinning with impunity, right? (Seems implication is not your strong suit)

 

[PeterAndroz]

If what you are saying is true @bdavidc, that the Gospel doesn’t include the process of sanctification, what fool repeatedly told us to sin no more and be perfect? Matthew 5:48 (The Voice)
But you are called to something higher: “Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

And why did this wrong command get issued?

The alternative is the son of God died a brutal death so we could keep sinning with impunity, right? (Seems implication is not your strong suit)

Hey W, yet at times maybe regularly we ALL still continue to sin in some way.
Fortunately for sinners like you & I we are saved and HS sealed when we hear, believe & trust in the death burial & resurrection of Christ and not in anything we do or don't.
Titus 3:5-7
Eph 2:8-9
Gal 2:16
Rom 3:28
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1

 

[Lizbeth]

Hey W, yet at times maybe regularly we ALL still continue to sin in some way.
Fortunately for sinners like you & I we are saved and HS sealed when we hear, believe & trust in the death burial & resurrection of Christ and not in anything we do or don't.
Titus 3:5-7
Eph 2:8-9
Gal 2:16
Rom 3:28
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1

Jas 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I see in these scriptures both the reality of how we are as human beings (which is why we are told to bear with one another in love), but also there is a hope and potential being held out to us of no longer offending. And I believe we should always aim for and measure ourselves against the plumbline of the perfect man in order to keep taking ground in our lives/hearts.

 

[Episkopos]

No, it is not “both.” You are adding your own spiritual theory to the gospel and then hiding it behind the phrase “double-edged sword.”

Hebrews 4:12 says the Word of God is “quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword.” It means God’s Word penetrates and exposes the heart. It does not mean the gospel has two different sides, one revealed in Scripture and another invented by you. That is a dishonest misuse of the verse.

Paul defined the gospel plainly: “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day” (1 Corinthians 15:3–4). Fallen sinners are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Your teaching about innocent people falling and progressing into some higher spiritual class is not the other edge of the gospel. It is another gospel.

Paul did not say two contradictory gospels could both be true. He said, “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).

And spare me the condescending talk about whether I am “still teachable.” I am teachable, but Scripture has already taught me not to be fooled by men who disguise private revelations and invented doctrines as deeper spiritual knowledge. “Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge” (Proverbs 19:27).

Teachability does not mean bowing before every self-appointed spiritual master who writes books and claims to possess truths ordinary believers supposedly cannot understand. Scripture warns that false teachers “through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you” (2 Peter 2:3). I will judge your teaching by Scripture, not Scripture by your teaching.

I will also warn others plainly about what you are doing. Christians should not follow your teaching or buy into your books simply because you wrap speculation in spiritual-sounding language. Paul said, “Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” (Romans 16:17).

You have repeatedly belittled those who demand Scripture while failing to establish your claims from Scripture. That is not spiritual maturity. It is pride hiding behind mysticism. Stop twisting Bible phrases to support doctrines they never taught, repent of corrupting the gospel, and return to what is actually written.

I teach One God with 2 Lords. I teach ONE gospel with 2 levels. I teach ONE truth with 2 aspects. The double-edged sword cuts in more than one way. There is ONE way to the Father....Jesus Christ. But there is also a way of mercy..

All the ways of God are 1. Mercy and 2. Truth. It is One way on 2 levels. Think of a double decker bus.

Jesus is BOTH God and man. You will deny this because you are following an invention of men.

 

[Wrangler]

I teach One God with 2 Lords.

Not to hijack this thread. For those who struggle with reading comprehension, are sophomoric in overly literal interpretations, like 1 Cor 8:6, that explicitly reads ‘for us there is one Lord, Jesus,’ they tend to end their analysis there, make no effort to reconcile other verses but resort to name calling as they‘ve made their doctrine into an IDOL, I write on.

You are correct as there many lords in Scripture, including the Lord God (Genesis 2:4) and the Lord Jesus (Acts 9:17). Our culture struggles with these titles and it may be easier to associate them with 2 different mayors. Although they oversee different geographical areas, they remain properly speaking mayors - even if your mayor is not the same person as my mayor.

Another analogy is between governor and mayor, which implies a hierarchy, as does 1 Cor 11:3. Again, not everyone is good with understanding implications. Easier to name call.

 

[Episkopos]

Not to hijack this thread. For those who struggle with reading comprehension, are sophomoric in overly literal interpretations, like 1 Cor 8:6, that explicitly reads ‘for us there is one Lord, Jesus,’ they tend to end their analysis there, make no effort to reconcile other verses but resort to name calling as they‘ve made their doctrine into an IDOL, I write on.

Exactly. The dishonesty is blatant. The bible says. I am the Lord and there is no other...a verse that a Jew would use against the Godship of Christ.

In that case who is the One Lord? Is it the Father or the Son> If we judge by only one verse we should then deny Jesus as Lord. But there are other verses that balance that out.

You are correct as there many lords in Scripture, including the Lord God (Genesis 2:4) and the Lord Jesus (Acts 9:17). Our culture struggles with these titles and it may be easier to associate them with 2 different mayors. Although they oversee different geographical areas, they remain properly speaking mayors - even if your mayor is not the same person as my mayor.

Yes. 2 things can be true at the same time. And some here need to learn to walk at the same time as they chew gum.

Another analogy is between governor and mayor, which implies a hierarchy, as does 1 Cor 11:3. Again, not everyone is good with understanding implications. Easier to name call.

Trying to help the religiously indoctrinated one's can appear to be a fools errand, until one realizes that they NEED to understand the truth outside their indoctrination in order to not be rejected in the coming judgement....a judgment that many foolishly think they are ready for.

The fear of the Lord is still the beginning of wisdom.

I say...Lord, let us overcome the world first through your grace and our testimony. Let the Bride make herself ready. (I say this without thinking I'm in the Bride)

 

[bdavidc]

I teach One God with 2 Lords. I teach ONE gospel with 2 levels. I teach ONE truth with 2 aspects. The double-edged sword cuts in more than one way. There is ONE way to the Father....Jesus Christ. But there is also a way of mercy..

All the ways of God are 1. Mercy and 2. Truth. It is One way on 2 levels. Think of a double decker bus.

Jesus is BOTH God and man. You will deny this because you are following an invention of men.

Episkopos, “one gospel with two levels” is your invention. Paul preached salvation through Jesus Christ, not a second level or an alternative route of mercy for unbelievers. “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Calling your system “ONE gospel” does not make its additions biblical.

You say there is one way to the Father, “but there is also a way of mercy.” God’s mercy does not provide a route around His Son. Scripture says God saves “according to his mercy” and immediately identifies “Jesus Christ our Saviour” (Titus 3:5–6). Jesus said, “No man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). Where is your exception for unbelievers? Show it in the text.

You have also twisted mercy and truth into two levels that Scripture never establishes. Psalm 25:10 says, “All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.” Mercy and truth describe God’s paths together. They are not separate salvation classes. Your double-decker bus is an illustration of your theory, not evidence that God taught it.

Hebrews 4:12 describes God’s Word as “a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” It says nothing about two levels of the gospel. Counting the edges of a sword does not establish doctrine. You are taking a biblical image and assigning it a meaning the passage never gives.

Your slogan “One God with 2 Lords” needs to answer to the actual apostolic teaching: “To us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him” (1 Corinthians 8:6). Paul also wrote, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5). Explain your claim from Scripture. Repeating numerical slogans proves nothing.

And your accusation that I deny Jesus is both God and man is false. I affirm both. “The Word was God” and “the Word was made flesh” (John 1:1, 14). Stop assigning me a denial I have never made because you cannot defend your own additions. Christ’s deity and humanity do not establish two gospels, two salvation levels, or salvation for unbelievers through another route.

Paul’s command was to “rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,” not to accommodate invented doctrines (Titus 1:13). His warning remains: “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9). Your teaching must answer to that standard. Stop twisting Scripture into support for your theories. Repent and return to the gospel the apostles actually preached.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Jas 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I see in these scriptures both the reality of how we are as human beings (which is why we are told to bear with one another in love), but also there is a hope and potential being held out to us of no longer offending. And I believe we should always aim for and measure ourselves against the plumbline of the perfect man in order to keep taking ground in our lives/hearts.

James 1:1, James 3:1
James speaks to 12 tribes < his brethren, where does he mention the Gentiles (you & I) in those verses ?
...
"""And I believe we should always aim ..... AGREED c/- works, performance, do this, don't do that etc
Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
Yet where does Paul teach that 'performance' etc is a condition to ENTER Heaven ?