Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[rebuilder 454]

And you are thinking with your FLESH, thinking that Christ's Salvation is about our flesh when it is not. I have to laugh at those who just BYPASS what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the change to the "spiritual body" at the "twinkling of an eye" on that day. God's Wrath upon the wicked will in no way harm those in Christ, and can be right in the middle of it, just like Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-nego who were in the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, and Christ was with them, and they came out of it without their clothes even smelling of smoke (Dan.3).

First you say no flesh involved in salvation.
Then you say he will save your flesh.
Then you give verses where some ancients had their flesh saved.

 

[Davy]

First you say no flesh involved in salvation.
Then you say he will save your flesh.
Then you give verses where some ancients had their flesh saved.

You sure do love telling LIES.

Show me where I EVER SAID JESUS COMES TO SAVE OUR FLESH.

Also show me where I gave verses that some ancients had their flesh saved.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You sure do love telling LIES.

Show me where I EVER SAID JESUS COMES TO SAVE OUR FLESH.

Also show me where I gave verses that some ancients had their flesh saved.

Well here ya go.

Davy said:
And you are thinking with your FLESH, thinking that Christ's Salvation is about our flesh when it is not. I have to laugh at those who just BYPASS what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the change to the "spiritual body" at the "twinkling of an eye" on that day. God's Wrath upon the wicked will in no way harm those in Christ, and can be right in the middle of it, just like Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-nego who were in the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, and Christ was with them, and they came out of it without their clothes even smelling of smoke (Dan.3).

Now what was that about your post of flesh being saved you are confused about????
You wrote it.

 

[Davy]

Well here ya go.

Davy said:
And you are thinking with your FLESH, thinking that Christ's Salvation is about our flesh when it is not. I have to laugh at those who just BYPASS what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the change to the "spiritual body" at the "twinkling of an eye" on that day. God's Wrath upon the wicked will in no way harm those in Christ, and can be right in the middle of it, just like Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-nego who were in the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, and Christ was with them, and they came out of it without their clothes even smelling of smoke (Dan.3).

Now what was that about your post of flesh being saved you are confused about????
You wrote it.

You are being silly, the event of Christ saving Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-nego was a MIRACLE that serves as an EXAMPLE of the LAST DAY of this world when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off the surface of this earth. Christ did many MIRACLES per His written Word for He is God. But that still does not BYPASS what The New Testament teaches about His Salvation of our "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Cor 15:49-53
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

Now if you want to DENY the existence of The New Testament Books, and what they teach, and instead just stay on a FLESHY Jewish Old Testament Babylonian Talmud thinking, fine, then go to, but WHY are you here on a Christian forum?

 

[William Barton]

IMO:
The seven Jewish festivals point to the Messiah:

1. Passover------------------slain as a lamb
2. Unleavened bread----sinless bodily in the tomb
3. First fruits----------------first from the grave
4. Pentecost----------------sends the spirit
5. Trumpets-----------------battle cry, returns in judgment.
6. Atonement---------------atones for Israel
7. Booths---------------------Millennial reign

I assume "spiritual body" is a body with a spirit.," as had Adam and Eve at the beginning.

"Eternal" stems from Latin aevum = "age, lifetime."

"Eternity" in the sense of "never-ending" is a mathematical concept with no practical application.

 

[ewq1938]

The last trump is blown every year on the Feast of Trumpets.

That's Judaism. Paul was a Christian speaking about the end times last trump which is the last of 7.

When Paul wrote about the last trump it was no mystery. It is blown on the fall harvest feast. There is seed time and harvest.

Not what he was teaching about.

Your beliefs have the Church on the earth during the wrath of God when we are clearly told that we are not appointed to wrath.

No, posttrib teaches that the Church is raptured before the wrath of God. You are using a strawman fallacy.

And of course, John wrote Revelation decades after Paul wrote about the last trump. And yet not one clarification by Paul was necessary.

Doesn't matter since God is the author of the info.

 

[The Light]

No, posttrib teaches that the Church is raptured before the wrath of God. You are using a strawman fallacy.

Yeah, that's what post trib teaches. And yet we see no rapture in the scripture before the 7th trumpet. All those trumpets and vials and yet no rapture.

To make post trib work you have to pretend that the 6th seal is the 7th trumpet.

Then you have to pretend that the 7th seal is 30 minutes of silence in heaven while ignoring the 1st six trumpets and six vials.

Then you have to ignore scripture that says we can escape all these things including the including the great tribulation and stand before the Son of man. And ignore that believers can escape the time of testing that will come on the whole world.

Then you have to pretend that the great tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing.

 

[The Light]

The seven Jewish festivals point to the Messiah:

1. Passover------------------slain as a lamb
2. Unleavened bread----sinless bodily in the tomb
3. First fruits----------------first from the grave

Okay.

4. Pentecost----------------sends the spirit

Contrary to popular opinion the Spirit is sent 50 days later on the Feast of New Wine.

Pentecost is the presenting of the barley and wheat first fruits by the priest. It is also the time of the spring barley harvest which are the dead in Christ.

The wheat harvest occurs at the end of summer and is the alive that remain of the Church..

5. Trumpets-----------------battle cry, returns in judgment.

Fall fruit harvest. These are the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman, that get victory over the beast. They are Jews.

6. Atonement---------------atones for Israel
7. Booths---------------------Millennial reign

Okay.

 

[ewq1938]

Yeah, that's what post trib teaches. And yet we see no rapture in the scripture before the 7th trumpet.

Maybe because the rapture is NOT before the 7th trump?

All those trumpets and vials and yet no rapture.

To make post trib work you have to pretend that the 6th seal is the 7th trumpet.

No, you have to understand the vial is descibed the future events of the 7th trump, as Christ did in the OD as well.

Then you have to pretend that the 7th seal is 30 minutes of silence in heaven while ignoring the 1st six trumpets and six vials.

Adding in anything one wants into the 7th seal is bad interpretation and is classic eisegesis.

Then you have to ignore scripture that says we can escape all these things including the including the great tribulation and stand before the Son of man. And ignore that believers can escape the time of testing that will come on the whole world.

Here's how to understand "escaping":


1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.


One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual one.

Then you have to pretend that the great tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing.

Pretrib believes that not posttrib.

 

[Davy]

Okay.


Contrary to popular opinion the Spirit is sent 50 days later on the Feast of New Wine.

Pentecost is the presenting of the barley and wheat first fruits by the priest. It is also the time of the spring barley harvest which are the dead in Christ.

The wheat harvest occurs at the end of summer and is the alive that remain of the Church..


Fall fruit harvest. These are the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman, that get victory over the beast. They are Jews.


Okay.

Not accurate per New Testament prophecy. Can't just slap any Old Testament event onto New Testament prophecy.

1. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed the day of His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER.... the tribulation. That immediately disagrees with your use of a spring harvest time of the saints.

2. Also In Christ's Olivet discourse, He used symbolic 'summer' as the only harvest time associated with His coming to gather His Church.

3. Today, the Jews represent ONLY the tribes of the "house of Judah", the southern kingdom of Judah at Jerusalem-Judea. They were the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. But the rest of the tribes of Israel dwelt in the northern holy lands and made up the "house of Israel", and "kingdom of Israel" after God had split old Israel into two separate kingdoms because of Solomon's folly. Thus the MAJORITY of the Seed of Israel was with the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" with one born of the tribe of Ephraim as its king (Jeroboam was first). God scattered the ten tribes first out of the land, never to return as a people. They slowly were led westward into Asia Minor and Europe and became the founders of the western Christian nations along with the believing Gentiles. Most of the ten tribes today think they are Gentiles, having lost their old heritage as part of Israel.

What this does is completely SCRAPS that theory of the 12 tribes all being JEWS, and also that they all are unbelievers, even during the coming tribulation.

Also what this does, is it reveals you actually don't really know your Old Testament history either.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yeah, that's what post trib teaches. And yet we see no rapture in the scripture before the 7th trumpet. All those trumpets and vials and yet no rapture.

To make post trib work you have to pretend that the 6th seal is the 7th trumpet.

Then you have to pretend that the 7th seal is 30 minutes of silence in heaven while ignoring the 1st six trumpets and six vials.

Then you have to ignore scripture that says we can escape all these things including the including the great tribulation and stand before the Son of man. And ignore that believers can escape the time of testing that will come on the whole world.

Then you have to pretend that the great tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing.

You over complicate what is simple, why would God do that.

Jesus only taught the post-trib rapture. It is our gathering to Him.

Ephesians 1:10
that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are being silly, the event of Christ saving Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-nego was a MIRACLE that serves as an EXAMPLE of the LAST DAY of this world when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off the surface of this earth. Christ did many MIRACLES per His written Word for He is God. But that still does not BYPASS what The New Testament teaches about His Salvation of our "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Cor 15:49-53
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

Now if you want to DENY the existence of The New Testament Books, and what they teach, and instead just stay on a FLESHY Jewish Old Testament Babylonian Talmud thinking, fine, then go to, but WHY are you here on a Christian forum?

I am quoting you.
You said it.

You GAVE 2 EXAMPLES of the flesh being saved.
I only reported what YOU SAID.

Maybe edit it if you don't want to own it.

But your deal is basically that.
You have difficulty with scripture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not accurate per New Testament prophecy. Can't just slap any Old Testament event onto New Testament prophecy.

1. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed the day of His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER.... the tribulation. That immediately disagrees with your use of a spring harvest time of the saints.

2. Also In Christ's Olivet discourse, He used symbolic 'summer' as the only harvest time associated with His coming to gather His Church.

3. Today, the Jews represent ONLY the tribes of the "house of Judah", the southern kingdom of Judah at Jerusalem-Judea. They were the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. But the rest of the tribes of Israel dwelt in the northern holy lands and made up the "house of Israel", and "kingdom of Israel" after God had split old Israel into two separate kingdoms because of Solomon's folly. Thus the MAJORITY of the Seed of Israel was with the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" with one born of the tribe of Ephraim as its king (Jeroboam was first). God scattered the ten tribes first out of the land, never to return as a people. They slowly were led westward into Asia Minor and Europe and became the founders of the western Christian nations along with the believing Gentiles. Most of the ten tribes today think they are Gentiles, having lost their old heritage as part of Israel.

What this does is completely SCRAPS that theory of the 12 tribes all being JEWS, and also that they all are unbelievers, even during the coming tribulation.

Also what this does, is it reveals you actually don't really know your Old Testament history either.

....and yet Jesus used "Jews" and "Israel" interchangeably.
So your deal vanishes before the eye.

You mat 29-31 reference has Jesus gathering nobody.
Angels gather.
Jesus stays/ sends angels.

You get an F

 

[Davy]

I am quoting you.
You said it.

You GAVE 2 EXAMPLES of the flesh being saved.
I only reported what YOU SAID.

Maybe edit it if you don't want to own it.

But your deal is basically that.
You have difficulty with scripture.

You still have NOT given PROOF. And others here can SEE that you haven't. You aren't fooling anyone.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You still have NOT given PROOF. And others here can SEE that you haven't. You aren't fooling anyone.

La la la.
Who cares??????
You need it reposted for the 3rd and 4th time? ??
Nothing burger you can't admit.

 

[Davy]

....and yet Jesus used "Jews" and "Israel" interchangeably.
So your deal vanishes before the eye.

I never said the "house of Judah", the JEWS, were never called Israel. In fact I pointed out that once God removed all the northern tribes of the "kingdom of Israel", and the JEWS of the southern kingdom of Judah were the only ones left in the land, they and the peoples around them called them Israel, just because of the fact that they ("house of Judah") were the only Israelites left in the land.

If you had studied your Old Testament history starting in 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17 you would have understood this. But ALAS, trying to get some hard-headed brethren to actually study their Old Testament is like mating elephants, lot of groaning and moaning taking place and it takes two years to produce results.

 

[Davy]

La la la.
Who cares??????
You need it reposted for the 3rd and 4th time? ??
Nothing burger you can't admit.

I've seen nothing of my statements posted as proof by you. You are bearing false witness.

 

[The Light]

Maybe because the rapture is NOT before the 7th trump?

I do see a post trib rapture, at the 6th seal. But then the 7th seal is opened and the trumpets and vials of God's wrath are poured out. You get around by claiming that the 7th seal is 30 min of silence in heaven and pretend that the trumpets and vials of God's wrath don't happen in the seventh seal.......only the magic 7th trumpet happens.

No, you have to understand the vial is descibed the future events of the 7th trump, as Christ did in the OD as well.

The vials are just a different view with additional information of the same time as the trumpets. That time is the 7th seal wrath of God. How can everything be over at the 7th trumpet and then you want the vials to happen. As everything else, it makes no logical sense.

Christ described nothing about the 7th seal in the Olivet Discourse. The OD describes the 1st six seals including the great tribulation and then the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Jesus never talks about the events of the wrath of God in the OD.

Adding in anything one wants into the 7th seal is bad interpretation and is classic eisegesis.

I am not adding one single thing. You are pretending that the 7 trumpets and 7 vials are not the wrath of God. You don't know what to do with them. In your view we jump from the 6th seal to the 7th trumpet and pretend that all those trumpets and vials of wrath are a mirage. Make no logical sense whatsoever.

Here's how to understand "escaping":


1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.


One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual one.

Or we could escape ALL THESE THINGS and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.........in heaven.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Pretrib believes that not posttrib.

Well, if you don't believe that the 7 trumpet and 7 vials are Gods wrath, you have to believe that the those trumpets and vials occur somewhere else.

The trumpets and vials occur somewhere. WHERE DO THEY OCCUR?

It's very hard to figure out post trib, because I don't know what scriptures to skip and pretend that they are not there. It's unscriptural and illogical.

 

[ewq1938]

I do see a post trib rapture, at the 6th seal. But then the 7th seal is opened and the trumpets and vials of God's wrath are poured out. You get around by claiming that the 7th seal is 30 min of silence in heaven and pretend that the trumpets and vials of God's wrath don't happen in the seventh seal.......only the magic 7th trumpet happens.

The trumps and vials are not part of the 7th seal. After the 7th is opoened, the angels are given the trumps to sound but the seal is done and completed before the other events.

The vials are just a different view with additional information of the same time as the trumpets.

No, they are different.

That time is the 7th seal wrath of God. How can everything be over at the 7th trumpet and then you want the vials to happen. As everything else, it makes no logical sense.

No one is saying everything is over at the 7th trump. It's simply the second coming and when the wrath begins, as Rev 11 says.

Christ described nothing about the 7th seal in the Olivet Discourse. The OD describes the 1st six seals including the great tribulation and then the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Jesus never talks about the events of the wrath of God in the OD.

That's false. He used the analogies of the flood and fire at Sodom as examples of God's wrath and he said more after that using various stories/examples.

I am not adding one single thing. You are pretending that the 7 trumpets and 7 vials are not the wrath of God.

The trumps are not the wrath but the vials are.

You don't know what to do with them. In your view we jump from the 6th seal to the 7th trumpet and pretend that all those trumpets and vials of wrath are a mirage. Make no logical sense whatsoever.

Only because that is a strawman fallacy and your interpretations of teh seals, trumps and vials are wrong in almost every possible way.

The trumpets and vials occur somewhere. WHERE DO THEY OCCUR?

The trumpets sound through the endtimes with the 6th being the trib, and the 7th is when the wrath comes.

It's very hard to figure out post trib, because I don't know what scriptures to skip and pretend that they are not there. It's unscriptural and illogical.

That's actually a Pretrib issue because everything about the rapture places it after the trib has ended which is the only logical timeframe for it. God wants to gather all the Christian survivors of the trib when Christ returns and the wrath starts then because it is punishment for the horrible things the wicked did to the saints. The punishment does not start while the crimes are still being committed.

 

[The Light]

Not accurate per New Testament prophecy. Can't just slap any Old Testament event onto New Testament prophecy.
1. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed the day of His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER.... the tribulation. That immediately disagrees with your use of a spring harvest time of the saints.

The gathering is the gathering from heaven and earth. This is not the rapture of the Church.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude in Revelation 7.

We get another view of this gathering here. It is the fall fruit harvest.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

2. Also In Christ's Olivet discourse, He used symbolic 'summer' as the only harvest time associated with His coming to gather His Church.

The dead rise first in the spring. This is the barley harvest.
The alive that remain are raptured at the end of summer in the wheat harvest.
The harvest that you see in Matthew 24 is the gathering from heaven and earth prior to the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

3. Today, the Jews represent ONLY the tribes of the "house of Judah", the southern kingdom of Judah at Jerusalem-Judea. They were the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. But the rest of the tribes of Israel dwelt in the northern holy lands and made up the "house of Israel", and "kingdom of Israel" after God had split old Israel into two separate kingdoms because of Solomon's folly. Thus the MAJORITY of the Seed of Israel was with the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" with one born of the tribe of Ephraim as its king (Jeroboam was first). God scattered the ten tribes first out of the land, never to return as a people. They slowly were led westward into Asia Minor and Europe and became the founders of the western Christian nations along with the believing Gentiles.

I understand this completely. However, when Hitler was killing the Jews was he only looking for those in the house of Judah? Jews is a term that applied both to the House of Judah and the House of Israel. I have no problem using the term 12 tribes across the earth, which is the seed of the woman, Israel if it helps your understanding.

Most of the ten tribes today think they are Gentiles, having lost their old heritage as part of Israel.

I think God knows who is who.

What this does is completely SCRAPS that theory of the 12 tribes all being JEWS, and also that they all are unbelievers, even during the coming tribulation.

Was Hitler only searching for those of the House of Judah or is the term Jews used interchangeably for both houses?

Also what this does, is it reveals you actually don't really know your Old Testament history either.

Davy. You haven't even figured out why Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation. Shouldn't He come before the tribulation was over in your view?