The Two Anointed Ones = The Two Witnesses

[Earburner]

Same post. You posted a lot, but nothing that addressed the first question of my post. It's simply, did John and Jesus resurrect from the dead at the same time because the two prophets do. The two also immediately rise into heaven and I know Jesus didn't do that right away and when he did, John was not rising up with him.

Yes and no.
For anyone to resurrect unto New physical Life, they first must come AFTER Jesus' mortal death and resurrection.
Please see KJV Mat. 27:50-54.
On the same hour of Jesus' death, Jesus who is the resurrection, resurrected MANY of the OC. Saints of faith. John the Baptist would have been among them.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes and no.

The answer is no. Nothing about the death, laying in the street, or resurrection and rising into the sky of the two prophets match the deaths and resurrections of John and Jesus and there is no evidence t all that John rose back in the first century. He could have, but only some of the saints resurrected not all. There certainly was not John and Jesus being killed together, both bodies laying in the street for 3.5 days and a simultaneous resurrection and rapture into the heavens.

For anyone to resurrect unto New physical Life, they first must come AFTER Jesus' mortal death and resurrection.
Please see KJV Mat. 27:50-54.
On the same hour of Jesus' death, Jesus who is the resurrection, resurrected MANY of the OC. Saints of faith. John the Baptist would have been among them.

He might have been, maybe not. You are assuming that without any direct evidence. The two prophets are NOT in a grave in Rev 11 so that eliminates John and Jesus.

 

[Earburner]

The answer is no. Nothing about the death, laying in the street, or resurrection and rising into the sky of the two prophets match the deaths and resurrections of John and Jesus and there is no evidence t all that John rose back in the first century. He could have, but only some of the saints resurrected not all. There certainly was not John and Jesus being killed together, both bodies laying in the street for 3.5 days and a simultaneous resurrection and rapture into the heavens.

Those "MANY Saints" that rose from their graves had been waiting to receive "the Promise that was to come". They were OC SAINTS!! KJV Mat. 27:50-54.
Because Jesus had resurrected first, the OC saints, held in "Remembrance" by God (Malachi 3:16-18), had just received their "white robes" (the Holy Spirit) to be resurrected into New Life. Rev. 6:9-11.

John the Baptist physically died among the OC Saints, but he himself "never died" spiritually, because HE WAS BORN HAVING The Holy Spirit already.
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

He might have been, maybe not. You are assuming that without any direct evidence. The two prophets are NOT in a grave in Rev 11 so that eliminates John and Jesus.

Both John and Jesus were the ONLY people in all the world ever, to be physically born having the Holy Spirit permanently dwelling within them before birth.
Spiritually, they never died.
No one can "suffer"(cause, keep) an eternally living, Immortal person to be buried or be kept in a grave.
This is a past event, and is NOT prophesied to take place again in the future!! In other words, it can never be fulfilled again!

They are "God's Two anointed ones".
John the Baptist and Jesus, are the fulfillment of Zech. 3:8-10, 4:11-14, as spiritually spoken of in allegorical and metaphorical language in Rev. 11:3-13, as being "God's Two witnesses".

Listen to the words:
Rev. 11:9 "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations [of those visiting Jerusalem during Passover]..........shall not suffer [cause, keep] their dead bodies to be put in graves."
Three days later, early Sunday morning, Jesus' body was not to be found in the tomb. Jesus was WALKING** around, and continued to so for 40 days, until He ascended into heaven.
And so it would be also, for those who were the many OC Saints that arose from their graves, of which John the Baptist would've been among them.
Mat. 27:53 And [they] came out of the graves after his resurrection, and WENT into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Yes indeed, the resurrected OC Saints were also WALKING** around.

So then, the conclusion of it all is wrapped up in the following report by the Roman centurion : Mat. 27:54 says this: Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus [while on the cross], saw the earthquake, and those THINGS that were done [the veil of the temple was torn in two, and many OC.Saints rising from their graves] they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Edit #1 (5:18am 9-19-26)
Hmmm....the words: "they feared greatly" is another nugget of prophetic words fulfilled. It is found in Rev. 11:11 And after three days and an half [symbolic for 3.5 yrs.of their joint ministry] the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. [The exact testimony of the centurion, etc. Mat. 27:54]

By the way, did you know that the period of "three days and an half", is symbolic for the Joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus for 3.5 years? John for 6 months, and Jesus for 3.0 years. It is scripturally known as the 1260 days.
Rev. 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and THEY shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore [1260] days, aka 3.5 years, clothed in sackcloth.

Now please pay attention to this in light of
Rev. 12:6 And the woman [the beginning NC. church of 12 Disciples] fled into the wilderness [Mt. of Olives- Luke 21:37], where she hath a place prepared of God, that  THEY [the teachings of the two witnesses] should feed [nourish] her there a thousand two hundred and threescore [1260] days, aka 3.5 years.
See also Rev. 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness [Mt. Olive], into her place, where she is nourished ["fed"] for a time, and times, and half a time [3.5 yrs.], from the face of the serpent.

It's interesting to notice, that the time period of 1260 days is applied to the Two Witnesses, and also to the NC woman [the beginning church of I2 disciples], who were "nourished" through the teachings of the Two Witnesses.

**NOTE:
In the above, please notice my word choice of "WALKING".
That will be a God inspired replacement word for a false italicized "word insertion", that was inserted by the translators of the KJV Bible from the Textus Receptus Greek Text.

By the way, for reasons of translation, a "word insertion" into a biblical text is not anything but a helpful support using word associations w ith the surrounding context.
However, some choices can be terribly wrong, due to not understanding the spiritual value it should be addressing.
I will be dropping that factual biblical Bomb here in the very near future. I will subtitle it as "Word Insertion".

Remember, this will be a suggested word change for a humanly made insertion, that is already in the English of the KJV. The literal biblical text, as translated from the TR-Greek, shall remain untouched.

EDIT #2: "Word Insertion"- Part #1 of 2.
Part #1
In the NT of the KJV Bible, there are numerous words that were inserted (added in) during the translation from Greek to English. The Greek version ot translation for the KJV is from the Textus Receptus Greek text.

Now, I am not anyone who understands the depth of translation from one language to another. My level can only be measured by one year of Spanish in High School.
However, word insertions are a different challenge all on their own.
In the sentence structure of the Greek, a word or two and more can be missing for the complete understanding of the sentence. Therefore, it is up to the translator(s) "freedom of suggestion", to add in (insert words) to help the sentence to flow fluidly, for ease of understanding in and with the context.
(cont'd to part #2 post 208).

 

[Earburner]

He might have been, maybe not. You are assuming that without any direct evidence. The two prophets are NOT in a grave in Rev 11 so that eliminates John and Jesus.

You are not understanding the reality and purpose of the book of Revelation. It is not a chronological book about the far future only. It is simply God the Father Himself in His Eternity (Rev. 1:1 since 96 AD), speaking in the past, present and future, all at the SAME time. Isa. 55:8-9. Much of His "thoughts and ways" are allegorical, metaphoric and symbolic. Even when He did speak through the OC prophets, hardly any of it was to be interpreted literally. We are not to think that we can understand God according to our shallow linear thinking. "We have the mind of Christ", and we are to use it!!

 

[ewq1938]

You are not understanding the reality and purpose of the book of Revelation.

I feel the same in return, but much moreso.

 

[Earburner]

I feel the same in return, but much moreso.

1 Cor. Ch. 2

 

[ewq1938]

1 Cor. Ch. 2

1 Cor. Ch. 3

 

[Earburner]

Part #2 (cont'd. from post 203).

Having said that, in the book of Revelation, I have come across a suggested "word insertion" by the translators that if it was an ERROR, it would be an error that is so egregious, that NO ONE would want to know of it. However, in the mentioning of it, even though it repels one to think of it, at the same time it draws one in to seek the truth of it.
It's one of those situations whereby "once you see it, you cannot un-see it".

What makes this particular insertion so difficult, is due to the issue of how one understands the 1000 years, commonly called "The Millennium". I for one hold to the concept of "Amillennialism". Therefore, my understanding of Revelation is that God speaks in the Past, in the Present and in the Future, all at the SAME TIME (Isa. 55:8-9). As a result, I do not view the book of Revelation to be only about the far future of today only, but rather even since the First manifestation of Christ in the flesh.
God Himself spoke through the book of Revelation THEN, and HAS HAD MUCH TO SAY about then, as well as into the far future, from that point on. Rev. 1:1.

So now, for the word insertion by the translators. For reference, let's go to Revelation 11:1-13. We are going to examine verse 8.
Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
The word insertion of the 1611 KJV bible by the translators are the words "shall lie" in the street......
Though the words "shall lie" are the words of insertion by the translators, as an Ammillennial believer in Christ, the word "lie", as IF one be mortally DEAD in the street, is that which I am seriously concerned about.

Since the translators are allowed the freedom of word suggestion and word choice, I have discovered that through the Ammillennial viewpoint, the word "lie" is a most terrible choice of a word to insert, and therefore for purposes of our own understanding of "The Truth", as I have conveyed in detail earlier in part #1, I suggest that their insertion be changed to the word " WALK".
As a result, we can now understand Rev. 11:8 as being so:
Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall "walk" in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
I am suggesting that the "Dead bodies" are in meaning that they were RESURRECTED bodies that the people were seeing in Jerusalem, that were walking around, which is conducive to the Resurrection of Christ, the OC Saints, with John the Baptist being among them.
Mat. 27:50-54

As a Reminder, I am not changing the words of God here!!
I am suggesting that in our personal Bible studies, the human insertion of the word "LIE" be changed to the word "WALK", which is acceptable for a better understanding in the concept of Ammillenialism.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Part #2 (con't from post 203).

Having said that, in the book of Revelation, I have come across a suggested "word insertion" by the translators that if it was an ERROR, it would be an error that is so egregious, that NO ONE would want to know of it. However, in the mentioning of it, even though it repels one to think of it, at the same time it draws one in to seek the truth of it.
It's one of those situations whereby "once you see it, you cannot un-see it".

What makes this particular insertion so difficult, is due to the issue of how one understands the 1000 years, commonly called "The Millennium". I for one hold to the concept of "Amillennialism". Therefore, my understanding of Revelation is that God speaks in the Past, in the Present and in the Future, all at the SAME TIME (Isa. 55:8-9). As a result, I do not view the book of Revelation to be only about the far future of today only, but rather even since the First manifestation of Christ in the flesh.
God Himself spoke through the book of Revelation THEN, and HAS HAD MUCH TO SAY about then, as well as into the far future, from that point on. Rev. 1:1.

So now, for the word insertion by the translators. For reference, let's go to Revelation 11:1-13. We are going to examine verse 8.
Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
The word insertion of the 1611 KJV bible by the translators are the words "shall lie" in the street......
Though the words "shall lie" are the words of insertion by the translators, as an Ammillennial believer in Christ, the word "lie" as IF one be DEAD in the street, is that which I am seriously concerned about.

Since the translators are allowed the freedom of word suggestion and choice, I have discovered that through the Ammillennial viewpoint, the word "lie" is a most terrible choice of a word to insert, and therefore for purposes of our own understanding of "The Truth", as I have conveyed in detail earlier, I suggest that their insertion be changed to the word " WALK".
As a result, we can now understand Rev. 11:8 as being so:
Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall "walk" in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
I am suggesting that the "Dead bodies" are in meaning that they were RESURRECTED bodies that the people were seeing in Jerusalem, that were walking around, which is conducive to the Resurrection of Christ, the OC Saints, with John the Baptist being among them.
Mat. 27:50-54

As a Reminder, I am not changing the words of God here!!
I am suggesting that in our personal Bible studies, the human insertion of the word "LIE" be changed to the word "WALK", which is acceptable for a better understanding in the concept of Ammillenialism.

I agree with you that Revelation should not be forced into a strictly future, chronological scheme. However, once you reach Revelation 11:1–13, I believe your interpretation goes in the wrong direction—especially when you attempt to replace “lie” with “walk” in Revelation 11:8.

There is simply no textual basis for inserting “walk.”

The Greek of Revelation 11:8 reads:

καὶ τὸ πτῶμα αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τῆς πλατείας τῆς πόλεως τῆς μεγάλης

Literally: “and their corpse/body [is] upon the street of the great city.”

The important word is πτῶμα (ptōma)—a fallen body, corpse, or dead body. The KJV supplied “shall lie” because English requires a verb to make the sentence natural. The translators were not "inventing" the idea that the witnesses were dead. The Greek noun itself communicates that!

Therefore, replacing “lie” with “walk” does not merely substitute one harmless English word for another. It changes the meaning of the Greek text. A πτῶμα is not a resurrected person walking around.

The context makes this even clearer:

“The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and KILL them.” — Revelation 11:7

Then:

“Their dead bodies…” — Revelation 11:8

Then:

“They…shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.” — Revelation 11:9

And only afterward:

“The Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet.” — Revelation 11:11

Notice the sequence:

Killed → dead bodies → remain dead → Spirit of life enters them → they stand.

If the “dead bodies” of verse 8 are already resurrected saints walking around, then what exactly happens in verse 11 when the Spirit of life enters them and they stand upon their feet?

Your interpretation effectively moves the resurrection into verse 8 even though Revelation itself places their revival in verse 11.

I also disagree that the “great city” must be literal first-century Jerusalem. John himself warns us against such a simplistic geographical identification:

“the great city, which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt…” — Revelation 11:8.

That word “spiritually” matters.

This city is characterized spiritually as Sodom, Egypt, and the place “where also our Lord was crucified.” The imagery describes the spiritual condition of the New Testament congregation that has become hostile to Christ and His testimony. Revelation uses “city” imagery symbolically elsewhere as well.

From the amillennial understanding I am presenting, the Two Witnesses represent the witnessing Church—the Elect people of God—not resurrected Old Testament saints walking around first-century Jerusalem. Selah!

Revelation 11:3 says:

“I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy…”

Verse 4 immediately identifies them symbolically:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

That deliberately draws upon Zechariah 4 while also using Revelation's own established symbolism of candlesticks/lampstands for churches (Revelation 1:20).

The 1,260 days therefore portray the Church's divinely appointed period of Salvation Gospel Witness. God's people proclaim the Gospel under His authority until their testimony has accomplished God's purpose to ensure all Elect are secured, Revelation 7:1-4.

Then comes the beast's spiritual war against them.

Their “death” signifies the silencing of their faithful testimony during the final apostasy/Great Tribulation. They have not suddenly become "resurrected Old Testament saints strolling through Jerusalem" as you think! Not at all! Their testimony has been overcome and publicly treated as dead as if they do not care about the Truth.

That also explains why those dwelling upon the earth “rejoice over them…make merry, and shall send gifts one to another” (Revelation 11:10). The faithful prophetic testimony that tormented them about their sin has finally been silenced. Professed Christians of the fallen congregation then can celebrate because the voice that exposed it appears defeated.

But it does not remain defeated.

After the symbolic three-and-a-half days:

“The Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet.” — Revelation 11:11.

God vindicates and revives His witnesses.

So I cannot accept changing your “lie” to “walk.” There is no Greek manuscript evidence supporting “walk,” the Greek word πτῶμα means a corpse/dead body, verse 7 explicitly says they are killed, verse 9 continues calling them dead bodies, and verse 11—not verse 8—is where they finally stand again.

We should interpret Revelation symbolically where Revelation itself signals symbolism, but symbolism does not give you the permission to replace the words of the text to make them fit your interpretation.

Let Scripture determine our interpretation—not alter Scripture to accommodate one.

Selah!

@rwb

 

[ewq1938]

Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall "walk" in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Dead bodies do not walk but they do tend to lie still because of the being dead thing.

I am suggesting that the "Dead bodies" are in meaning that they were RESURRECTED bodies that the people were seeing in Jerusalem, that were walking around, which is conducive to the Resurrection of Christ, the OC Saints, with John the Baptist being among them.
Mat. 27:50-54

Then it would not say DEAD. The passage clearly says two people are killed, their dead bodies lie (they added that because that's what dead bodies do) in the street not walk around, and only after 3.5 days are they resurrected back to life but they do not walk around but rise into heaven. You are just re-writing the text to match what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

As a Reminder, I am not changing the words of God here!!

I disagree.

I am suggesting that in our personal Bible studies, the human insertion of the word "LIE" be changed to the word "WALK", which is acceptable for a better understanding in the concept of Ammillenialism.

Might as well say they moonwalk then fly around the city.

 

[Jay Ross]

My from My Interlinear: -

Revelations 11:8


{were} In {a place}


a wide street or square


Shalom

 

[TribulationSigns]

My from My Interlinear: -

Revelations 11:8
View attachment 90262

{were} In {a place}
View attachment 90263

a wide street or square
View attachment 90264

Shalom

Okay. What about it?

 

[Jay Ross]

Okay. What about it?

All that I can do is point you in the right direction by providing you with reliable material.

What you do with this information is beyond my ability to control.

 

[Earburner]

I agree with you that Revelation should not be forced into a strictly future, chronological scheme. However, once you reach Revelation 11:1–13, I believe your interpretation goes in the wrong direction—especially when you attempt to replace “lie” with “walk” in Revelation 11:8.

There is simply no textual basis for inserting “walk.” pp

If a person is NOT an Amillennial believer in Christ, whatever their preference is for understanding that the period of "a thousand years" takes place in the future, their understanding of who the Two witnesses (2Ws) were and when they had appeared, will always conflict with the false belief, that the 2Ws are still to come.
You and I are Amillennialists, so therefore Hallelujah, we already have alot in common.

The Greek of Revelation 11:8 reads:

καὶ τὸ πτῶμα αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τῆς πλατείας τῆς πόλεως τῆς μεγάλης

Literally: “and their corpse/body [is] upon the street of the great city.”

The important word is πτῶμα (ptōma)—a fallen body, corpse, or dead body. The KJV supplied “shall lie” because English requires a verb to make the sentence natural. The translators were not "inventing" the idea that the witnesses were dead. The Greek noun itself communicates that!

Therefore, replacing “lie” with “walk” does not merely substitute one harmless English word for another. It changes the meaning of the Greek text. A πτῶμα is not a resurrected person walking around.

In the Textus Receptus Greek [1611 KJV], the Greek for the words "shall lie" ARE NOT THERE, thus revealing that the words "shall lie" is an insertion by human means.

The context makes this even clearer:
Then:
Then:
And only afterward:
Notice the sequence:
Killed → dead bodies → remain dead → Spirit of life enters them → they stand.

?? I don't know what you were trying to show.

If the “dead bodies” of verse 8 are already resurrected saints walking around, then what exactly happens in verse 11 when the Spirit of life enters them and they stand upon their feet?

God was revealing His foreknowledge of what the 2Ws were GOING to do in the street of the great city. My suggested change of the human biblical insertion is: They were going to WALK in the street of the great city (Jerusalem).

Your interpretation effectively moves the resurrection into verse 8 even though Revelation itself places their revival in verse 11.

Nope! You are drawing a false conclusion, thinking that verse 8 is the reality of verse 11, when all that verse 8 reveals is the foreknowledge of God.

I also disagree that the “great city” must be literal first-century Jerusalem. John himself warns us against such a simplistic geographical identification:

“the great city, which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt…” — Revelation 11:8.

Yes! The great city is earthly Jerusalem, but is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Surely you do know why. Sodom is about sin; Egypt is about captivity. Jerusalem, as well as all of us are held captive by sin.

That word “spiritually” matters.

This city is characterized spiritually as Sodom, Egypt, and the place “where also our Lord was crucified.” The imagery describes the spiritual condition of the New Testament congregation that has become hostile to Christ and His testimony. Revelation uses “city” imagery symbolically elsewhere as well.

I agree to understand that the situation is spiritual and not literal.
The words: "Where also our Lord was crucified". Is an identifier, that's all.

From the amillennial understanding I am presenting, the Two Witnesses represent the witnessing Church—the Elect people of God—not resurrected Old Testament saints walking around first-century Jerusalem. Selah!

Revelation 11:3 says:

“I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy…”

Verse 4 immediately identifies them symbolically:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

That deliberately draws upon Zechariah 4 while also using Revelation's own established symbolism of candlesticks/lampstands for churches (Revelation 1:20).

I agree that the 2A0s in Zech. 4:14 (520 BC) are the prophesied 2Ws in Rev. 11, but they are not to be into the far, far future, upto today of 2026 without any show for (520+2026)= 2546 years!!
Surely both of them DID SHOW UP during the time of Jesus First appearance, in the manifestation of Him in the likeness of our mortal flesh, as prophesied in Zech. 3:8-10
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth**my servant the Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10. In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
**The words "bring forth" are applied to Jesus, and do identify Jesus to be Him that God shall "bring forth".
Proverbs 8:24
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverbs 8:25
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

The 1,260 days therefore portray the Church's divinely appointed period of Salvation Gospel Witness. God's people proclaim the Gospel under His authority until their testimony has accomplished God's purpose to ensure all Elect are secured, Revelation 7:1-4.

I can perceive this as being the time of the latter part of the 70th week of 7 years.
Messiah was cut off/ crucified in the midst of the 70th week, that being 6 mos. for John, and 3.0 years for Jesus. The latter 3.5 years are fulfilled by Jesus, through His Spirit nurturing the early church for 3.5 years, as was witnessed by Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus.
I do see here how it is that you want to apply the latter 3.5 years of the 70th week through Jesus to the early church. At the moment, I can partly agree.

Then comes the beast's spiritual war against them.

Their “death” signifies the silencing of their faithful testimony during the final apostasy/Great Tribulation. They have not suddenly become "resurrected Old Testament saints strolling through Jerusalem" as you think! Not at all! Their testimony has been overcome and publicly treated as dead as if they do not care about the Truth.

That also explains why those dwelling upon the earth “rejoice over them…make merry, and shall send gifts one to another” (Revelation 11:10). The faithful prophetic testimony that tormented them about their sin has finally been silenced. Professed Christians of the fallen congregation then can celebrate because the voice that exposed it appears defeated.

But it does not remain defeated.

After the symbolic three-and-a-half days:

“The Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet.” — Revelation 11:11.

God vindicates and revives His witnesses.

So I cannot accept changing your “lie” to “walk.” There is no Greek manuscript evidence supporting “walk,” the Greek word πτῶμα means a corpse/dead body, verse 7 explicitly says they are killed, verse 9 continues calling them dead bodies, and verse 11—not verse 8—is where they finally stand again.

We should interpret Revelation symbolically where Revelation itself signals symbolism, but symbolism does not give you the permission to replace the words of the text to make them fit your interpretation.

Let Scripture determine our interpretation—not alter Scripture to accommodate one.

Selah!

To much of what you say, I surely do agree to, but the word "LIE" is a human insertion, for the purpose of translation, and is not found in the TR-Greek text. Therefore, I don't see the questioning of that insertion to be any violation against the original TR-Greek used for translation. My suggestion for different insertion, such as "walk", that is exactly what Jesus DID DO for 40 days. As for the many of OC. Israel that resurrected after Jesus' death on the cross, THEY ALSO went (walked) into the city of Jerusalem.
ER22214]rwb[/USER]

 

[TribulationSigns]

All that I can do is point you in the right direction by providing you with reliasble material.

What you do with this information is beyond my ability to control.

Beyond your ability to control? LOL! How about your ability to receive the truth? Let me use this to teach you something according to the Word of God:

Your word study of ἐπί (epi) and πλατεία (plateia) does not refute my interpretation. I have never denied that plateia can mean a physical street, broad place, or public square. The issue is not the dictionary definition of “street.” The issue is what the street and great city symbolize in Revelation 11.

Revelation 11:8 itself warns us against forcing a merely geographical reading:

“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

John explicitly uses πνευματικῶς — “spiritually.” The great city is called Sodom and Egypt, although Christ was not literally crucified in either Sodom or Egypt, right? So therefore John is already interpreting geographical language spiritually. Showing that plateia means “street” does not establish that John means a literal modern street with two literal corpses lying upon it.

More importantly, Revelation itself establishes the symbolism of the witnesses. Revelation 11:4 says:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

And Revelation has already interpreted candlesticks/lampstands as churches:

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.” — Revelation 1:20

Zechariah 4 supplies the olive-tree imagery, while Revelation applies that imagery to God's witnessing testimony. The emphasis throughout Revelation 11 is therefore not merely on two biological individuals but upon God's prophetic witness in the earth.

Notice also what happens when their testimony is completed:

“And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make WAR against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.” — Revelation 11:7

That language parallels Revelation 13:7:

“And it was given unto him to make WAR with the saints, and to overcome them.”

That parallel is important. Revelation 11 says the beast makes war against the witnesses and overcomes them; Revelation 13 says the beast makes war against the saints and overcomes them. That strongly supports understanding the witnesses corporately as representing the faithful people of God, the SAINTS, in their prophetic testimony!

Nor does “kill” require the physical annihilation of every believer. Revelation repeatedly uses death imagery spiritually. Christ tells Sardis:

“Thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.” — Revelation 3:1

The congregation physically existed, yet Christ called it dead. Therefore a church or testimony can be “dead” while people remain physically alive.

This fits the larger pattern I am arguing for. During the church age, God's faithful witnesses assemble and bear testimony in the visible sphere of the church which is the great city. Through that Gospel witness, God gathers His elect. Compare Christ's command to preach the Gospel to the nations with Revelation 7's sealing of God's servants before judgment proceeds.

Once God's witnessing purpose has been accomplished, Revelation portrays the beast arising to wage war against the saints. False christs and false prophets arise as Christ warned (Matthew 24:24), deception intensifies, and the faithful testimony is overcome and silenced. Thus the “dead bodies” lying in the broad place of the great city picture the public defeat and silencing of the Church's faithful testimony, not necessarily "two literal men" whose corpses are lying on pavement.

There is another important detail: Revelation 11:13–14 continues directly into the seventh trumpet. The seventh trumpet announces:

“The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.” — Revelation 11:15

So the witnesses' persecution, apparent defeat, vindication, and resurrection occur immediately in the context leading to Christ's final triumph—not a separate earthly thousand-year kingdom afterward.

Therefore highlighting Strong's definitions for epi and plateia proves only that John used ordinary Greek words meaning upon/in a street or broad public place. I agree with that. But it does not prove what that street represents.

You cannot establish the interpretation of an apocalyptic symbol merely by showing the literal lexical meaning of the noun. If we did that consistently, the “olive trees” would have to be literal botanical trees and the “candlesticks” literal pieces of furniture. Yet Revelation itself teaches us to interpret these images symbolically.

The question is not, “Can πλατεία mean street?” Yes, it can. The question is, “What does that street signify in John's symbolic vision?”

That is the point your word study has not answered, and therefore it does not refute my interpretation of the Two Witnesses. Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

In the Textus Receptus Greek [1611 KJV], the Greek for the words "shall lie" ARE NOT THERE, thus revealing that the words "shall lie" is an insertion by human means...

To much of what you say, I surely do agree to, but the word "LIE" is a human insertion, for the purpose of translation, and is not found in the TR-Greek text. Therefore, I don't see the questioning of that insertion to be any violation against the original TR-Greek used for translation.ER22214]rwb[/USER]

Well, I see that you are still confusing translation into idiomatic English with “inserting doctrine into Scripture.”

Yes, there is no separate Greek verb in Revelation 11:8 corresponding exactly to the KJV words “shall lie.” The Textus Receptus reads:

καὶ τὰ πτώματα αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τῆς πλατείας...

Literally: “and their dead bodies/corpses upon the street...”

The KJV translators supplied “shall lie” to express that Greek construction naturally in English. Modern interlinears similarly render the construction “[will be] upon the street.”

But where in that Greek text do you find “walk”?

There is no Greek verb for “walk” in Revelation 11:8. The normal NT verb for walking is περιπατέω (peripateō), and nothing resembling that occurs here.

Even more importantly, the actual noun is πτώματα (ptōmata), plural in the Textus Receptus. The word refers to fallen/dead bodies, corpses. The grammatical analysis identifies ptōmata as the bodies/corpses, followed by ἐπὶ τῆς πλατείας — “upon the street.”

And the context makes the matter even clearer. Revelation 11:7 says immediately beforehand:

“the beast...shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and KILL them.”

Then verse 8 speaks of their πτώματα — dead bodies/corpses upon the street. Verse 9 again speaks of their dead bodies and says they will not permit them to be put into graves. Obviously they were not "walking" but DEAD! Then verse 11 says:

“the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet.”

So the sequence is:

Killed → dead bodies → not buried → life enters them → they stand. Get it?!

So YOUR ATTEMPT to turn verse 8 into the witnesses “walking” breaks the entire sequence of Revelation 11:7–11!

Therefore, saying “shall lie is not a separate Greek word” is technically true but proves nothing about your proposed interpretation. “Shall lie” is an English translation supplied to express the Greek construction.

But claiming that the passage therefore means the witnesses “walk” is something entirely different. There is no Greek word for “walk” in Revelation 11:8. You make it up, actually!

If you believe the Greek means “walk,” then please identify the Greek verb in Revelation 11:8 that means “to walk.” It isn't there!

Your belief also does nothing to refute the symbolic interpretation of the Two Witnesses. I fully agree that Revelation depicts their testimony as being killed. My argument is that this depicts the faithful Church's testimony being overcome and silenced, followed by its divine vindication—not that two literal men physically walk around after supposedly being killed.

Revelation itself gives us spiritual imagery: the city where this happens is “spiritually called Sodom and Egypt” (Rev. 11:8), and the witnesses themselves are identified as “the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks” (Rev. 11:4). The question is therefore what these deaths, bodies, city, street, olive trees, and lampstands represent within John's apocalyptic vision.

You cannot remove “shall lie” and replace it with “walk.” That is not translation; that is supplying an idea for which Revelation 11:8 contains no Greek verb at all. Sorry!

 

[Truth7t7]

To much of what you say, I surely do agree to, but the word "LIE" is a human insertion, for the purpose of translation, and is not found in the TR-Greek text. Therefore, I don't see the questioning of that insertion to be any violation against the original TR-Greek used for translation. My suggestion for different insertion, such as "walk", that is exactly what Jesus DID DO for 40 days. As for the many of OC. Israel that resurrected after Jesus' death on the cross, THEY ALSO went (walked) into the city of Jerusalem.
ER22214]rwb[/USER]

Your not going to insert your private interpretation "Walk In" the streets as if the KJV interpretation "Lie In" is wrong and your right

The over qualified KJV translators knew exactly what was needed, they saw literal dead bodies (Their Dead Bodies) and it states (In A Street Where Jesus Was Crucified) Your claim that these dead bodies are "Walking In" the street where Jesus was crucified is "Laughable" the farthest thing away from the context of scripture seen in Rev 11:3-18 below

These (Dead Bodies) are later seen being celebrated over by a watching world exchanging gifts, these dead bodies are later seen being raised from the dead standing on their feet, being raised to heaven before a literal world watching, (Future-Literal-Unfulfilled)

(The Future Two Witnesses, And Biblical Truth)

Zechariah 4:11-14 below clearly "Interprets" the olive trees and candlestick as being (The Two Anointed Ones) who are (The Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11, they are described as having literal physical bodies that die, and their dead bodies are literally raised from the dead before a literal world watching (Future, Literal)

Conclusion: (The Two Witnesses) do not represent the "Church" as posters "Falsely" suggest, the events seen in Revelation Chapter 11 are (Future Unfulfilled)

Future Fulfillment: The (Two Witnesses) will prophesy for 1260 literal days bringing all plagues upon this wicked world at their will, they will be killed and lay dead in a literal Jerusalem street for 3.5 literal days as a wicked world watches in celebration of their deaths exchanging gifts, they will be raised from the dead standing on their feet and they will ascend into heaven as the literal world watches, the same hour there will be a great earth quake in Jerusalem, the 2nd woe is complete and the 3rd woe comes quickly in the 7th Angel-Trump sounding (The End) Final Judgement Seen in Rev 11:18 (The End)

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-18KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill t
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

My argument is that this depicts the faithful Church's testimony being overcome and silenced, followed by its divine vindication—not that two literal men physically walk around after supposedly being killed.

Revelation itself gives us spiritual imagery: the city where this happens is “spiritually called Sodom and Egypt” (Rev. 11:8), and the witnesses themselves are identified as “the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks” (Rev. 11:4). The question is therefore what these deaths, bodies, city, street, olive trees, and lampstands represent within John's apocalyptic vision.

(The Future Two Witnesses, And Biblical Truth)

Zechariah 4:11-14 below clearly "Interprets" the olive trees and candlestick as being (The Two Anointed Ones) who are (The Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11, they are described as having literal physical bodies that die, and their dead bodies are literally raised from the dead before a literal world watching (Future, Literal)

Conclusion: (The Two Witnesses) do not represent the "Church" as posters "Falsely" suggest, the events seen in Revelation Chapter 11 are (Future Unfulfilled)

Future Fulfillment: The (Two Witnesses) will prophesy for 1260 literal days bringing all plagues upon this wicked world at their will, they will be killed and lay dead in a literal Jerusalem street for 3.5 literal days as a wicked world watches in celebration of their deaths exchanging gifts, they will be raised from the dead standing on their feet and they will ascend into heaven as the literal world watches, the same hour there will be a great earth quake in Jerusalem, the 2nd woe is complete and the 3rd woe comes quickly in the 7th Angel-Trump sounding (The End) Final Judgement Seen in Rev 11:18 (The End)

Revelation 11:4 & Zechariah 4:14 The Very Same Reading And Interpretation Given

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-18KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill t
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Earburner]

Dead bodies do not walk but they do tend to lie still because of the being dead thing.

If one would read Mat. 27:54 and Rev. 11:11, both scriptures give the reaction of the people who literally SAW "Dead men walking", they feared greatly.
And so would you, if you were there. I don't know about you, but if I never heard of or had seen what a resurrection looks like, as that of people coming out of their graves, and then walking around, yeah I would say that I too would be somewhat fearful.

Then it would not say DEAD. The passage clearly says two people are killed, their dead bodies lie (they added that because that's what dead bodies do) in the street not walk around, and only after 3.5 days are they resurrected back to life but they do not walk around but rise into heaven. You are just re-writing the text to match what you want it to say, not what it actually says.





I disagree.




Might as well say they moonwalk then fly around the city.

If you are not an Amillennial believer in Christ, you will always believe that there is still coming two people in the future who would be Elijah and Enoch, coming back to life again. And you think that I have problems?

Edit:
Please understand, I am not attempting to avoid scripture or make scripture void. That is not my point. But I will examine scripture spiritually, as we are told to do by the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor. 2:13.

I am perceiving that scripture by God's witness is providing the witness of what the people experienced about their witness of WHAT THEY SAW!!
MANY People coming out of their graves, SOON AFTER Christ died on the cross IS NOT ANY EXPERIENCE OF ANYONE, except those who saw it!!

Please take notice that the story line doesn't even wait until the 3rd day of when Christ is actually, visibly seen by Mary Magdeline, walking in the garden.

In all reality, my question is this:
Q. WHEN exactly did Christ resurrect into New Life within the tomb?
A. Soon after they sealed it with the roll stone on Friday evening.
Has anyone ever seen "The Shroud of Tourin"? Think of it what you will. But, it may literally reveal the event of Jesus' literal Resurrection!!

the shroud of turin images at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

My point is, Christ, Who is Eternal, NEVER DIED Spiritually, therefore AFTER His mortal death, and Him receiving His New Immortal Body,
He would have literally appeared to all who would visibly see Him as a "dead man walking".
That IS WHY when they saw the MANY people coming out of the graves, they all who saw it, FEARED GREATLY!! They also were seen by them as being MANY "dead men walking".

Mat. 27:50-54 and Rev. 11:3-13 are the same event, but being spoken from a different perspective.
The book of Revelation, at the time of its writing (96AD), is about past, present and future events, and is not only about all future events, as in these present latter years!!

Mat. 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus [dieing on the cross], SAW the earthquake, and those things that were done [temple veil torn, and dead people coming out of graves], they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Rev. 11:7,11. No! They weren't zombies (as they would've thought), they were many literal people in the Newness of their resurrection!!
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony [1260 days aka 3.5 yrs.], the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. (John finished his testimony in 6 mos. and King Herod killed him. Jesus, 3.0 years later, finished his testimony' and Roman Gov. Pilate killed Him. (All totalling 3.5 yrs. aka 1260 days).
11. And after three days and an half [1260 days aka 3.5 yrs.,after their testimonies] the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev. 11:11 and Mat. 27:54 ARE THE SAME EVENT!! These are the accounts that happened to and around God's prophesied Two anointed ones, that were to come, who did come, being themselves John the Baptist and Jesus, who were the Two witnesses of Rev. 11:11.

In all the world and for all time, John the Baptist and Jesus are the ONLY TWO people who were ever physically born having the (golden oil) the Holy Spirit within them ALREADY.

Therefore, in the testimony of who Jesus and John were, BEFORE THEIR resurrection, THEY HAD NOT BEEN LIEING in the street, but rather walking.

So also, AFTER their death and resurrection,
though terribly misunderstood by the audience around Jesus' cross, it was viewed BY the audience that Jesus Himself, the many OC Saints, that came out of their graves, including John the Baptist, that they were dead people walking. No one was lieing in the street of Jerusalem. But, they sure were walking!! Jesus did so for 40 days after His Resurrection!!
They were NOT DEAD people "LIEING" in the street, but rather resurrected people "WALKING" in the street.
Unfortunately people then did not know WHAT A RESURRECTION WAS OR what it LOOKED LIKE!! Therefore, t>hey were literally IN FEAR of what they were seeing!

 

[Truth7t7]

If one would read Mat. 27:54 and Rev. 11:11, both scriptures give the reaction of the people who literally SAW "Dead men walking", they feared greatly.
And so would you, if you were there. I don't know about you, but if I never heard of or had seen what a resurrection looks like, as that of people coming out of their graves, and then walking around, yeah I would say that I too would be somewhat fearful.

When the dead came out of the graves at the crucifixion of Jesus, it wasn't a resurrection as you claim, they were raised from the dead just as Lazarus and Tabitha were

There is one future time of resurrection and it takes place on (The Last Day) John 6:39-40

If you are not an Amillennial believer in Christ, you will always believe that there is coming two people in the future who would be Elijah and Enoch coming back to life again. And you think that I have problems?

I dont believe in a future 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

I believe and see two future witnesses that have literal physical bodies that die, and these dead bodies will be raised from the dead and ascend to heaven before a literal world watching Rev 11:3-18

You can't group Ahmillennialist into one simple box as you do, not everyone believes in your "Preterist" doctrines in changing future literal things that will take place, into symbolic allegory in fairy tales with Rev Chapter 11 being a prime example (Future/Literal/Unfulfilled)

Jesus Is The Lord