The Two Anointed Ones = The Two Witnesses

[TribulationSigns]

If one would read Mat. 27:54 and Rev. 11:11, both scriptures give the reaction of the people who literally SAW "Dead men walking", they feared greatly.
And so would you, if you were there. I don't know about you, but if I never heard of or had seen what a resurrection looks like, as that of people coming out of their graves, and then walking around, yeah I would say that I too would be somewhat fearful.

If you are not an Amillennial believer in Christ, you will always believe that there is coming two people in the future who would be Elijah and Enoch coming back to life again. And you think that I have problems?

Time out. Even you are amillennialist (with seasonings of preterism), you still get the interpreation wrong.

You are trying to join Matthew 27:54 and Revelation 11:11 together without biblical evidence that they describe the same people or the same event.

Matthew 27:54 happened at the crucifixion of Christ. The centurion and those with him saw the earthquake and what had happened and “feared greatly.” The resurrection of the "bodies of the saints" is mentioned immediately afterward in Matthew 27:52–53. This belongs to the historical events surrounding Christ's death and resurrection.


Revelation 11 is describing something entirely different. The Two Witnesses first prophesy and bear testimony (Rev. 11:3–7). When their testimony is finished, the beast makes war against them, overcomes them, and kills them. After the symbolic three-and-a-half days, “the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them” (Rev. 11:11).


The fact that both passages mention great fear does not make them the same event as you think. People “fear greatly” in many different biblical circumstances.


There is also a chronological problem with your argument. Matthew 27 occurs before Pentecost. At Pentecost Christ poured out the Holy Spirit upon His people and empowered them to become His witnesses:


“Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me...unto the uttermost part of the earth.” — Acts 1:8


That worldwide Gospel witness is what characterizes the New Testament Church age. Revelation 11 similarly describes the witnesses prophesying and giving testimony until their testimony is completed (Rev. 11:3, 7).


Therefore Matthew 27 cannot simply be imported into Revelation 11 as proof that Revelation's Two Witnesses are literally resurrected individuals walking around. Matthew never identifies the resurrected saints of Matthew 27 as Revelation's Two Witnesses. Revelation never identifies its Two Witnesses as those saints.


And Revelation 11:11 itself does not say “dead men walking," as you falsely alleged. It says:


“the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet.”


You are adding “walking” to the passage again. “Stood upon their feet” is not the Greek expression for “walked.”


Within my interpretation, the imagery is perfectly consistent: God's faithful witnesses proclaim the Gospel throughout the New Testament period; the beast eventually makes war against them and overcomes their testimony; their testimony appears dead and silenced; then God restores and publicly vindicates His witnesses as they begin to prophesy judgment against unfaithful churches as they depart, producing great fear among their enemies.

Matthew 27:54 does not refute it. To establish your argument, you would need Scripture actually connecting the saints raised around Christ's crucifixion with the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. Merely observing that both passages contain the words “feared greatly” does not establish that connection. Selah!

 

[Jay Ross]

Again my worth: -

G:4153 has this meaning: -



And Rev 11:13 should be paraphrased in this manner: -

Revelation 11:13: - 13 And at that hour there was great turmoil, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the turmoil, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Shalom

 

[TribulationSigns]

Again my worth: -

G:4153 has this meaning: -

And Rev 11:13 should be paraphrased in this manner: -

Revelation 11:13: - 13 And at that hour there was great turmoil, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the turmoil, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Shalom

My million dollar questions are:

1. When is that hour?
2. What city is this?
3. What does the tenth signifies?
4. Who are the Seven Thousand?
5. How will they be killed?
6. Who are the rest?
7. Why did they give glory to God of Heaven?

 

[ewq1938]

If you are not an Amillennial believer in Christ, you will always believe that there is coming two people in the future who would be Elijah and Enoch coming back to life again.

No one knows who they will be. Some ppl think it's them because both did not die yet but while a valid interpretation, it's still a guess. My position is we cannot know who they are until those exact events happen. Thinking the two prophets of Rev 11 were Jesus and John is more outlandish and I doubt many Amills would agree with it.

And you think that I have problems?

Your interpretation is not good (only the interp, not you).

 

[Jay Ross]

My million dollar questions are:

1. When is that hour?
2. What city is this?
3. What does the tenth signifies?
4. Who are the Seven Thousand?
5. How will they be killed?
6. Who are the rest?
7. Why did they give glory to God of Heaven?

Your valuation of the seven questions is questionable to say the least.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Your valuation of the seven questions is questionable to say the least.

Ha! Calling my seven questions “questionable” is not an answer to any of them.

You have spent considerable time insisting that Revelation 11 must be understood according to your interpretation, yet when I ask you to explain Revelation 11:13 in its own context, you dismiss the questions instead of answering them.

These are not trick questions. They are valid! Every one of them comes directly from the verse you are attempting to interpret:

What is the hour? What is the city? Why one-tenth? Who are the seven thousand? How are they killed? Who are the rest? Why do the rest give glory to the God of heaven?

If your interpretation is biblically sound, then you should be able to demonstrate it from Scripture. Don't simply call the questions “questionable.”

You have insisted upon literal meanings for the Two Witnesses, their bodies, and their standing upon their feet. Fine. Then follow your method consistently through the rest of the passage. Explain the city, tenth, earthquake, seven thousand, remnant, and giving glory to God then!

Otherwise, you are selecting the portions you want interpreted literally while avoiding the surrounding details that test whether your interpretation actually holds together.

I asked seven valid biblical questions. You answered zero. Surprise, surprise!

So rather than criticizing my “valuation” of the questions, please answer them one by one from Scripture. Then we can examine whose interpretation best accounts for the whole passage rather than isolated phrases.

Selah!

 

[Douggg]

My million dollar questions are:

1. When is that hour?
2. What city is this?
3. What does the tenth signifies?
4. Who are the Seven Thousand?
5. How will they be killed?
6. Who are the rest?
7. Why did they give glory to God of Heaven?

1. When is the hour ? Answer, within the same hour that the two witnesses ascended up to heaven in cloud. v12-13.

2. What city is this ? Answer, Jerusalem. Where people celebrated the two witnesses death.

3. What does the tenth signifies ? Answer, ten percent of the buildings in Jerusalem.

4. Who are the Seven thousand ? Answer, seven thousand persons died in the collapsed buildings.

5. How will they be killed ? Answer, by the weight of collapsing buildings

6. Who are the rest ? Answer, the survivors of the earthquake, who were frightened by it.

7. Why did they give glory to God of Heaven ? Answer, they were frightened, hoping that God would not issue another judgment for their misdeeds of celebrating the two witnesses deaths.

 

[PeterAndroz]

1. When is the hour ? Answer, within the same hour that the two witnesses ascended up to heaven in cloud. v12-13.

2. What city is this ? Answer, Jerusalem. Where people celebrated the two witnesses death.

3. What does the tenth signifies ? Answer, ten percent of the buildings in Jerusalem.

4. Who are the Seven thousand ? Answer, seven thousand persons died in the collapsed buildings.

5. How will they be killed ? Answer, by the weight of collapsing buildings

6. Who are the rest ? Answer, the survivors of the earthquake, who were frightened by it.

7. Why did they give glory to God of Heaven ? Answer, they were frightened, hoping that God would not issue another judgment for their misdeeds of celebrating the two witnesses deaths.

Keep up the good work Douggg, I like the way you slam dunk some of the nonsense you choose to respond to.

 

[TribulationSigns]

1. When is the hour ? Answer, within the same hour that the two witnesses ascended up to heaven in cloud. v12-13.

2. What city is this ? Answer, Jerusalem. Where people celebrated the two witnesses death.

3. What does the tenth signifies ? Answer, ten percent of the buildings in Jerusalem.

4. Who are the Seven thousand ? Answer, seven thousand persons died in the collapsed buildings.

5. How will they be killed ? Answer, by the weight of collapsing buildings

6. Who are the rest ? Answer, the survivors of the earthquake, who were frightened by it.

7. Why did they give glory to God of Heaven ? Answer, they were frightened, hoping that God would not issue another judgment for their misdeeds of celebrating the two witnesses deaths.

Wow! Thanks for the good laugh. A full response is coming tomorrow after I get a good night’s sleep.

But I have to say—an exact literal 7,000 people killed because exactly 10% of Jerusalem’s buildings collapsed on them?

Oh man!!! That’s quite an interpretation filled with speculations! We’ll examine tomorrow whether the text actually says any of that!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Keep up the good work Douggg, I like the way you slam dunk some of the nonsense you choose to respond to.

Slam dunk…without any scriptural support?

Ha! I think your victory celebration is a little premature. A “slam dunk” still has to make it through the hoop—and in this case, the hoop is Scripture.

Good Night!
(Chuckle).

 

[Jay Ross]

Ha! Calling my seven questions “questionable” is not an answer to any of them.

You have spent considerable time insisting that Revelation 11 must be understood according to your interpretation, yet when I ask you to explain Revelation 11:13 in its own context, you dismiss the questions instead of answering them.

These are not trick questions. They are valid! Every one of them comes directly from the verse you are attempting to interpret:

What I was questioning was the value of $1,000,000 that you put upon your seven questions.

As for me having spent considerable time insisting that Rev 11 must be understood in a particular manner, I simple provided the Interlinear for Rev 11:8, and Strong's definition/understanding for the Greek Root words G:1909 and G:4113 for people to consider. In that Post, #211, I did not indicate what my thoughts were on my understanding of Rev 11:8. Later I provided the Strong definition for G:4153 and also did not indicate what my understand was in post #222.

In regard to Revelation 11:13, I presented how I would translate/paraphrase that verse at the bottom of my post #222 and suggested that the Greek word "seismos" should be understood to have the meaning of "turmoil" rather than "earthquake."

I do not believe that I have forcible state how people should understand Rev 11.

Shalom

 

[TribulationSigns]

What I was questioning was the value of $1,000,000 that you put upon your seven questions.

As for me having spent considerable time insisting that Rev 11 must be understood in a particular manner, I simple provided the Interlinear for Rev 11:8, and Strong's definition/understanding for the Greek Root words G:1909 and G:4113 for people to consider. In that Post, #211, I did not indicate what my thoughts were on my understanding of Rev 11:8. Later I provided the Strong definition for G:4153 and also did not indicate what my understand was in post #222.

In regard to Revelation 11:13, I presented how I would translate/paraphrase that verse at the bottom of my post #222 and suggested that the Greek word "seismos" should be understood to have the meaning of "turmoil" rather than "earthquake."

I do not believe that I have forcible state how people should understand Rev 11.

Shalom

You are focusing on the “million-dollar” expression while still avoiding the substance of the seven questions. Obviously, “million-dollar questions” is an idiom meaning questions of great importance. Their value is precisely that answering them requires more than consulting Strong’s definitions—you must actually search the Scriptures and explain Revelation 11:13 in its biblical and symbolic context.

And that is where I believe your approach falls short!

Quoting Strong’s definitions for ἐπί (epi), πλατεία (plateia), πνεῦμα (pneuma), or σεισμός (seismos) can tell us the lexical range of Greek words, but a lexicon does not interpret an apocalyptic symbol for us.

For example, Revelation 11:4 calls the witnesses “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks.” Strong’s can tell us what an olive tree and a candlestick are. That does not mean we should start looking for two botanical trees and two pieces of furniture, right, eh? Revelation itself requires us to understand what those images signify! Selah!

The same problem applies to σεισμός (seismos) in Revelation 11:13. Whether you translate it “earthquake,” “shaking,” or even “turmoil,” you still have not answered the interpretive question: What does the shaking signify in John's vision, hello?

My position is that this is not merely a geological report about the ground physically shaking. It signifies divine judgment—a shaking of what had stood as God's house and visible kingdom on earth.

Scripture repeatedly uses shaking as judgment imagery. Haggai 2:6–7 speaks of God shaking heaven, earth, sea, and dry land. Hebrews 12:26–28 takes up that imagery and speaks of God shaking and removing what can be shaken so that the unshakable kingdom remains. Peter likewise says:

“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God.” — 1 Peter 4:17

That is the biblical framework I am applying to Revelation 11:13: God's judgment upon His house, a shaking of the visible church as it ceases faithfully to represent His kingdom. That is fundamentally different from reducing the passage to buildings physically shaking and collapsing.

And notice what surrounds this “earthquake.” We have a great city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt (Rev. 11:8), two olive trees and two candlesticks (11:4), a beast from the bottomless pit (11:7), three-and-a-half days (11:9, 11), a tenth of the city falling, seven thousand being killed, and the rest becoming afraid and giving glory to God (11:13).

This is exactly why my seven questions matter!

Scripture must interpret Scripture.

So yes, I still call them my “million-dollar questions,” because answering them forces us beyond isolated Greek definitions and into the theology and symbolism of Revelation itself.

You have given me lexical definitions and your paraphrase. I am asking for the biblical interpretation of the symbols.

There is a big difference.

Shalom!

 

[TribulationSigns]

1. When is the hour ? Answer, within the same hour that the two witnesses ascended up to heaven in cloud. v12-13.

2. What city is this ? Answer, Jerusalem. Where people celebrated the two witnesses death.

3. What does the tenth signifies ? Answer, ten percent of the buildings in Jerusalem.

4. Who are the Seven thousand ? Answer, seven thousand persons died in the collapsed buildings.

5. How will they be killed ? Answer, by the weight of collapsing buildings

6. Who are the rest ? Answer, the survivors of the earthquake, who were frightened by it.

7. Why did they give glory to God of Heaven ? Answer, they were frightened, hoping that God would not issue another judgment for their misdeeds of celebrating the two witnesses deaths.

The problem is that several of your answers are not established by Scripture. They rely on assumptions and speculation added to the text in order to construct a literal narrative. I will respond to each of your answers individually, sometimes in separate posts due to the length required to address them properly.

1. When is “the same hour”?

You answered: “Within the same hour that the two witnesses ascended up to heaven.”

Huh?

That tells us what immediately precedes Revelation 11:13, but it does not explain what “that hour” signifies. Revelation itself identifies this hour by showing the same climactic judgment repeatedly from different perspectives.

Revelation 3:10 says:

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [trial], which shall come upon all the world.”

This is the hour from which Christ promises to preserve His faithful people. Compare that with Revelation 18:4:

“Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

Why must God’s people come out of her? Because the unfaithful city is about to come under God’s judgment, while His Elect are spiritually separated and preserved from participating in that judgment.

Now look at Revelation 11:13:

“And the same hour was there a great earthquake...and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.”

What is “that hour”? Revelation later identifies its character explicitly:

“Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come.” — Revelation 14:7

Notice the parallel:

Revelation 11:13: THAT HOUR → great shaking/judgment → fear → give glory to God.

Revelation 14:7: THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGMENT → fear God → give glory to God.

Then Revelation 14:15 presents the same hour from the perspective of harvest:

“Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time [hour] is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”

Revelation 18 presents the same climactic judgment from yet another perspective:

“Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.” — Revelation 18:10

“For in one hour so great riches is come to nought.” — Revelation 18:17

“For in one hour is she made desolate.” — Revelation 18:19

So these are not merely unrelated occurrences of the word “hour.” Revelation clearly is showing the same appointed hour of God’s judgment from different perspectives: the hour of trial, the hour of judgment, the hour of harvest, the hour of the great city’s destruction, and the hour associated with the vindication of the Two Witnesses.

This also explains Revelation 3:10. The Elect are kept from that hour because God has spiritually called His people out from the apostate body that is coming under judgment, Selah!

“Come out of her, my people.”

They do not partake of her sins and therefore do not partake of her plagues.

Now return to Revelation 11.

The Two Witnesses represent God’s faithful testimony throughout the New Testament Church age. When they have “finished their testimony” (Rev. 11:7), the beast makes spiritual war against them, overcomes them, and kills—silences—their testimony. God then vindicates His witnesses, and “that same hour” the great shaking occurs.

See? The “great earthquake” as the shaking of God’s house under divine judgment, not merely as a geological earthquake knocking down buildings. Compare the biblical language of divine shaking in Haggai 2:6–7 and Hebrews 12:26–28, together with the principle that “judgment must begin at the house of God” (1 Peter 4:17).

And notice where Revelation 11 immediately takes us afterward:

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” — Revelation 11:14

Then the seventh trumpet sounds:

“The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.” — Revelation 11:15

Therefore, “that same hour” is not simply telling us that a literal earthquake occurred within sixty minutes of two men ascending into the sky as you dream of!

It signifies the appointed hour of God’s judgment after the faithful testimony has accomplished its purpose, the beast has overcome that testimony, God has vindicated His witnesses, and judgment falls upon the unfaithful church.

Revelation itself tells us what kind of hour this is:

“THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGMENT IS COME.” — Revelation 14:7

This proved that your assumption for number one is incorrect!

 

[TribulationSigns]

2. What city is this ? Answer, Jerusalem. Where people celebrated the two witnesses death.

1. What city is this?

You answered: “Jerusalem, where people celebrated the Two Witnesses’ death.”

Huh? That answer assumes from the beginning that John is describing the literal Middle Eastern city of Jerusalem. But Revelation 11:8 itself tells us not to approach the city merely geographically:

“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

Notice the word SPIRITUALLY.

John does not say, “the city of Jerusalem.” He calls it “the great city” and then deliberately gives it spiritual identities: Sodom and Egypt.

Was Jesus literally crucified in Sodom? No.

Was Jesus literally crucified in Egypt? No.

Then why does God call the city Sodom and Egypt?

Because we are being given its SPIRITUAL CHARACTER, not merely its geographical location.

That is exactly where your literal interpretation breaks down. You see “where our Lord was crucified” and immediately conclude, “Literal Jerusalem!” while passing over John’s explicit statement that the city is being identified SPIRITUALLY.

Furthermore, after the Cross, Scripture develops a distinction between earthly Jerusalem and the Jerusalem that belongs to the people of God.

Paul writes:

“But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.” — Galatians 4:26

And Hebrews says to New Testament believers:

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” — Hebrews 12:22

Notice: “YE ARE COME.”

Not, “Someday you will travel to the geographical city of Jerusalem.”

The New Testament people of God have already come to Mount Zion and heavenly Jerusalem.

Peter likewise applies Old Testament covenant language to the Church:

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.” — 1 Peter 2:9

And Paul says:

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” — 1 Corinthians 3:16

Therefore, on this side of the Cross, the dwelling place and covenant people of God are not defined by a geographical city in the Middle East. God dwells among His people.

That fits Revelation itself.

Revelation 1:20 tells us:

“the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”

Then Revelation 11:4 identifies the Two Witnesses as:

“the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

So we already have CHURCH imagery attached directly to the Two Witnesses!

Where do Christ’s witnesses testify?

Not merely inside geographical Jerusalem.

Jesus said:

“Ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and UNTO THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH.” — Acts 1:8

That is precisely the New Testament witnessing mission.

The faithful witnesses of Christ proclaim the Gospel throughout the world during the Church age. Therefore, if the Two Witnesses represent the faithful witnessing Church, their prophetic testimony cannot be confined to one literal street in Middle Eastern Jerusalem.

And Revelation 11 itself says their enemies are worldwide:

“And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies...” — Revelation 11:9

Then:

“And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them...” — Revelation 11:10

This is much larger than a local Jerusalem street scene, hello people?!

The whole earth is involved because the testimony of Christ’s witnesses has gone throughout the earth.

So what happens to the “great city”?

The city represents the visible covenant sphere—the Church—which has become spiritually corrupted. That is why the place that should represent God can now be called SPIRITUALLY “Sodom and Egypt.”

This pattern is not foreign to Scripture.

God called rebellious Jerusalem “Sodom” long before Revelation! As it is written:

“Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.” — Isaiah 1:10

They were not literally living in ancient Sodom. God was describing the spiritual condition of His covenant people, world wide, through the CHURCH which is supposed to represents God's Kingdom, Selah!

That is exactly the kind of prophetic language John employs in Revelation 11:8.

Therefore, answering simply “Jerusalem” misses the very spiritual identification John deliberately gives us.

The question is not:

“What modern geographical coordinates correspond to the city?”

The question is:

“What does this city REPRESENT in the vision?”

My answer is that on this side of the Cross, the imagery concerns the visible Church—the sphere in which God’s faithful witnesses have testified throughout the New Testament age. When that professing Church becomes apostate, persecutes and silences the faithful testimony, the place that outwardly claims to belong to God has spiritually become Sodom and Egypt and comes under His judgment.

So saying, “It is Jerusalem because Jesus was crucified there,” does not settle Revelation 11:8.

You have identified the historical imagery.

You have NOT explained its spiritual significance!

And John himself tells us that spiritual significance is exactly what we are supposed to look for:

“WHICH SPIRITUALLY IS CALLED SODOM AND EGYPT.”

That word “spiritually” cannot simply be brushed aside to preserve a literal Jerusalem interpretation like you think!

Therefore, your answer to number two is WRONG!

 

[TribulationSigns]

3. What does the tenth signifies ? Answer, ten percent of the buildings in Jerusalem.

1. What does “the tenth part of the city” signify?

You answered: “Ten percent of the buildings in Jerusalem.”

Huh? But where does Revelation 11:13 say anything about buildings?

It doesn’t.

The verse says:

“And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell...” — Revelation 11:13

You have inserted “buildings” into the text. John does not say that "ten percent of Jerusalem’s buildings collapsed." That is failed speculation created to make the passage read like a literal earthquake report.

The question I asked was not, “What percentage is one tenth mathematically?” Obviously, God said, "tenth part."

My question was: WHAT DOES THE TENTH PART SIGNIFY?

That requires us to interpret Revelation’s symbolic language by Scripture.

As I have already explained, "that hour” as the hour of God’s judgment, and the great earthquake as the divine shaking associated with that judgment. Therefore, when “the tenth part of the city fell,” we should ask what the FALLING OF THE CITY signifies—not imagine apartment buildings and houses physically collapsing in Jerusalem.

Scripture repeatedly uses shaking and falling imagery in connection with God removing what stands under His judgment.

Haggai 2:6 says:

“Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth...”

Hebrews interprets this shaking:

“Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.”

And then explains:

“And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken...” — Hebrews 12:26–27

That is precisely the biblical principle involved: God SHAKES in judgment, and what He has determined to remove FALLS.

This also corresponds with Christ’s warning concerning an unfaithful covenant people:

“The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” — Matthew 21:43

So Revelation 11:13 is not giving us a structural-damage percentage for Middle Eastern Jerusalem. It is depicting God’s judgment upon the apostate city—the visible, unfaithful Church that has ceased faithfully representing His kingdom.

And Scripture repeatedly uses TEN and its multiples in ways associated with fullness of whatever is in view! We see tens, hundreds, and thousands used symbolically throughout Scripture as fullness of whatever is in view, and Revelation itself is saturated with symbolic numerical language.

Therefore, “the tenth part” must be examined within that symbolic framework. I understand it in relation to the fullness and completeness of God’s judgment against His unfaithful house—not as an engineering statistic telling us that exactly 10 percent of Jerusalem’s physical buildings collapse.

Remember what is happening in the vision:

1. The faithful testimony has been completed.
2. The beast has made war against that testimony.
3. The testimony has been overcome and silenced.
4. God vindicates His witnesses.
5. Then comes “that hour”—the hour of judgment.
6. The great earthquake—the great SHAKING—occurs.
7. And the fullness of the city FALLS under that judgment.

That is the theological significance of the passage.

So your answer, “ten percent of the buildings in Jerusalem,” does not come from Revelation 11:13. The word “buildings” is not there. You make it up. You supplied it because your interpretation requires a literal earthquake damaging physical structures. That is why! Bad move because you did not compare Scripture with Scripture like I do!

This is why I am asking something much deeper:

WHY does God say “the tenth part”?

WHAT does the falling signify?

WHAT is God shaking and removing?

This is the judgment and falling of the unfaithful house of God as His visible kingdom representative. The Church that has become spiritually Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon is shaken under divine judgment and falls from the position she once professed to occupy. Selah!

That is a biblical interpretation of the SYMBOL.

“Ten percent of Jerusalem’s buildings” is merely a literal scenario imposed upon it - of course, coming from anyone with carnal mind without spiritual discernment.

 

[TribulationSigns]

It is halftime for me. I am taking a break to do chores and will finish response to the rest of your answers tonight, Douggg!

Take care!

 

[TribulationSigns]

4. Who are the Seven thousand ? Answer, seven thousand persons died in the collapsed buildings.

1. Who are the “seven thousand”?

You answered: “Seven thousand persons died in the collapsed buildings.”

Oh boy... again, where does Revelation 11:13 say that 7,000 people were physically crushed beneath collapsed buildings?!

It doesn’t.

There are no “collapsed buildings” mentioned in the verse. That detail exists only because you have already decided that the earthquake must be geological, the city must be literal Jerusalem, and therefore the slain must be literal casualties buried beneath rubble.

The problem is that is circular reasoning. You are using your literal interpretation to prove your literal interpretation. Which is incorrect!

My question was: WHO ARE THE SEVEN THOUSAND, and WHY does God specifically give us the number 7,000?

Revelation itself teaches us to take numerical symbolism seriously.

Consider the number SEVEN.

John writes to “the seven churches which are in Asia” (Revelation 1:4), yet the message repeatedly extends beyond those individual congregations:

“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” — Revelation 2:7

Christ stands “in the midst of the seven candlesticks” (Revelation 1:13), and Revelation itself interprets those candlesticks:

“the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.” — Revelation 1:20

Seven repeatedly appears throughout Revelation in connection with completeness of whatever is in view: seven churches, seven Spirits, seven seals, seven trumpets, seven thunders, and seven bowls.

Then we have TEN and its multiples, such as hundred and thousand, which Scripture can use to express fullness of whatever is in view, rather than a strict mathematical limit.

“The cattle upon a thousand hills” belong to God (Psalm 50:10).

Surely that does not mean God owns the cattle on hills 1 through 1,000, but the cattle on hill 1,001th or 1,053th belong to somebody else! The thousand expresses fullness.

Likewise:

“For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.” — Psalm 90:4

And:

“one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” — 2 Peter 3:8

So when Revelation gives us SEVEN THOUSAND, we have good reason to ask whether God is communicating totality and fullness rather than giving us a literal casualty count.

And there is an important biblical precedent for exactly seven thousand.

God told Elijah:

“Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal.” — 1 Kings 19:18

Paul brings that same number into his discussion of God’s remnant:

“I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.” — Romans 11:4

That does not mean we automatically give Revelation 11:13’s seven thousand the identical meaning as Elijah’s seven thousand. Context determines their identity. But it certainly demonstrates why the number deserves biblical examination rather than simply being assumed to mean exactly 7,000 earthquake casualties.

Now look at Revelation’s own context concerning judgment.

Before judgment proceeds, Revelation 7 presents God sealing His servants:

“Hurt not the earth...till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.” — Revelation 7:3

That distinction becomes extremely important in Revelation 9:

“And it was commanded them that they should not hurt...BUT ONLY those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.” — Revelation 9:4

Notice the division.

There are those whom GOD HAS SEALED (Elect) and those who DO NOT HAVE HIS SEAL. (Professed Christians). Many are called, few are chosen! Selah!

Revelation 9:6 then gives us extraordinary death imagery:

“And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.”

That alone should warn us against assuming that every reference to death in Revelation must describe ordinary physical death.

Revelation is describing spiritual judgment upon those within God's House all over the world to remain without God’s seal.

When the Gospel testimony has accomplished God’s purpose of gathering and securing His Elect, the restraint is removed. The beast rises against the faithful testimony, overcomes it, and the final spiritual judgment upon the unfaithful house proceeds and then attack those who have not yet seal of God!

That is why the great earthquake of Revelation 11:13 is not merely buildings shaking in Jerusalem.

It is the SHAKING OF THE HOUSE under God’s judgment.

Compare Hebrews 12:26:

“Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.”

Then verse 27 explains:

“And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the REMOVING of those things that are shaken...”

And 1 Peter 4:17 says:

“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God.”

Therefore, the 7,000 of Revelation 11:13 as signifying the TOTALITY and FULLNESS of those WITHIN the judged house who are not sealed by God.

SEVEN signifies totality or completeness.

THOUSAND signifies fullness.

SEVEN THOUSAND therefore signifies the complete fullness of those in view under this judgment.

Their being “slain” does not require 7,000 physical bodies lying underneath Jerusalem rubble. It signifies their coming completely under spiritual judgment, being given over to deception and bondage rather than possessing the saving testimony of Christ.

Compare 2 Thessalonians 2:11:

“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”

That is divine judgment without requiring physical execution.

So your interpretation gives us:

Literal Jerusalem + literal earthquake + literal buildings + literal collapse + exactly 7,000 physical casualties.

Wrong! The “buildings,” “crushing,” and “rubble” are NOT even stated in Revelation 11:13. Those details were supplied by your carnal interpretation.

I asked why GOD chose the number 7,000 and reads it within Revelation’s own themes of SEALING, COMPLETENESS, SPIRITUAL DEATH, SHAKING, and JUDGMENT UPON THE HOUSE OF GOD.

That is the difference.

Revelation is not an earthquake casualty report. It is prophecy, and prophecy must be interpreted by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Selah.

 

[Earburner]

Time out. Even you are amillennialist (with seasonings of preterism), you still get the interpreation wrong.

You are trying to join Matthew 27:54 and Revelation 11:11 together without biblical evidence that they describe the same people or the same event.

Matthew 27:54 happened at the crucifixion of Christ. The centurion and those with him saw the earthquake and what had happened and “feared greatly.” The resurrection of the "bodies of the saints" is mentioned immediately afterward in Matthew 27:52–53. This belongs to the historical events surrounding Christ's death and resurrection.

One thing I have noticed about Bible based (word) Christians, most all are literists in the extreme, leaving no room whatsoever for what the Holy Spirit teaches through those literal words.
Not because they can't hear Him, but rather "the wisdom of men", in their deciphering of human words, is primemost in their daily and collective studies, and not that of comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Cor. 2:13.

Revelation 11 is describing something entirely different. The Two Witnesses first prophesy and bear testimony (Rev. 11:3–7).

John the Baptist and Jesus did the same in their Joint ministry. One cannot be without the other, just as you can't have salvation without repentance.
6 mos. for John
3.0 years for Jesus equals
Their Joint ministry for 3.5 yrs., aka 1260 days.

When their testimony is finished, the beast makes war against them, overcomes them, and kills them. After the symbolic three-and-a-half days, “the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them” (Rev. 11:11).

Absolutely true. John was ordered killed by King Herod, and Jesus was ordered killed by Pilate,
but only after they each had finished their testimony within the 3.5 years. “The Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them” (Rev. 11:11) Jesus was resurrected, and the MANY OC. Saints resurrected also, out of their graves, whereby John the Baptist was one of them.

The fact that both passages mention great fear does not make them the same event as you think. People “fear greatly” in many different biblical circumstances.

I understand the reality of interpreting words within the mechanical structures of phrases and paragraphs, however let's not lose sight of how the Holy Spirit teaches us symbolism within God's prophetic words.
Since God is teaching us by His foreknowledge, by Him who lives in Eternity, where there is "no time", there is nothing that must be strictly chronological, unless He ordained it.

There is also a chronological problem with your argument. Matthew 27 occurs before Pentecost. At Pentecost Christ poured out the Holy Spirit upon His people and empowered them to become His witnesses:

Mat. 27 has to do with the OC Saints who had spent years, even after their death, waiting for the Promise to come, who was Jesus. There wasn't one single person under the OC, who had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, until AFTER Jesus was glorified. John 7:39.
Those that came out of graves were "under the altar" of the OC.
Malachi 3:16-18 speaks of them being written in God's book of Remembrance. John the Baptist died under the OC. Many of them, but not all, were resurrected during "The First resurrection", who is Christ. These "many" are the 144,000 of OC Israel. The remainder under the altar of the OC. are seen in Rev. 6:9-11 receiving their white robes, which is symbolic of the Holy Spirt. All of them are told to rest yet a little season....
The next event after "the First Resurrection" who is Jesus, would be Pentecost.

“Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me...unto the uttermost part of the earth.” — Acts 1:8

Agreed. This is under the NC., whereby all (both Jews and Gentiles) who come to repentance towards God, and are Born again of His Holy Spirit, having faith in Jesus, they will be of "the Great Multitude"

That worldwide Gospel witness is what characterizes the New Testament Church age. Revelation 11 similarly describes the witnesses prophesying and giving testimony until their testimony is completed (Rev. 11:3, 7).


Therefore Matthew 27 cannot simply be imported into Revelation 11 as proof that Revelation's Two Witnesses are literally resurrected individuals walking around. Matthew never identifies the resurrected saints of Matthew 27 as Revelation's Two Witnesses. Revelation never identifies its Two Witnesses as those saints.


And Revelation 11:11 itself does not say “dead men walking," as you falsely alleged. It says:


“the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet.”

Yes, for those that were DEAD in their graves, the Spirit of life from God entered into them [the Holy Spirit], and resurrected them soon after Jesus died His mortal death on the cross. Recall John 7:39.

You are adding “walking” to the passage again. “Stood upon their feet” is not the Greek expression for “walked.”

Since the words shall "lie" are words inserted into the KJV bible by the human mind of translators, I see no justification for the Two resurrected bodies of Jesus and John the baptist to be "lieing in the street", when all accounts reveal that in those moments, they were indeed walking in the street, in resurrected bodies, but no one watching could tell the difference, nor could they describe it.

Within my interpretation, the imagery is perfectly consistent: God's faithful witnesses proclaim the Gospel throughout the New Testament period; the beast eventually makes war against them and overcomes their testimony; their testimony appears dead and silenced; then God restores and publicly vindicates His witnesses as they begin to prophesy judgment against unfaithful churches as they depart, producing great fear among their enemies.

Matthew 27:54 does not refute it. To establish your argument, you would need Scripture actually connecting the saints raised around Christ's crucifixion with the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. Merely observing that both passages contain the words “feared greatly” does not establish that connection. Selah!

I have provided the scriptures numerous times. Unfortunately our human minds can be stubborn as a mule, being comfortable with that which we had previously settled upon.
No one likes to accept change, even myself.

Years ago, as a Born again Christian, I once was a deeply committed Bible thumping Rapture theorist, sold entirely on the Pre-millennialist theory. However, I had an 8 translation NT Bible that caused me to crash so hard, I almost lost my mind and my salvation, for almost sliding into disbelief in Christ. Mass confusion drove me to the edge, whereby I cried out to God, repenting of all the 8 NT Bible translations, EXCEPT the KJV Bible.
In that, I vowed to God that I would read no other Bible, and that I would trust His Holy Spirit to be my only real teacher.
For the past 40 years, I have been an Amillennial believer in Christ, knowing for sure the inward experience of "His peace that passes all understanding".

 

[Jay Ross]

My million dollar questions are:

1. When is that hour?
2. What city is this?
3. What does the tenth signifies?
4. Who are the Seven Thousand?
5. How will they be killed?
6. Who are the rest?
7. Why did they give glory to God of Heaven?

1. Approximately the last 24 years before the final judgement takes place before Eternity becomes a reality.
2. Jerusalem
3. 10%
4. We are not told; we can only make assumptions to gain a satisfactory answer for ourselves.
5. We are not told; we can only make assumptions to gain a satisfactory answer for ourselves.
6. We are not told; we can only make assumptions to gain a satisfactory answer for ourselves.
7. Because they had chosen to worshipped God, even in difficult times of the Little While period.

What matters for us today is that we respond whole heartedly to God's gathering of His people how have chosen to live/take root in His Fertile Field.

That is what God's Saints should be focused upon today. Anything else is just fanciful conjecture on our part.

Shalom

 

[TribulationSigns]

Absolutely true. John was ordered killed by King Herod, and Jesus was ordered killed by Pilate,
but only after they each had finished their testimony within the 3.5 years. “The Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them” (Rev. 11:11) Jesus was resurrected, and the MANY OC. Saints resurrected also, out of their graves, whereby John the Baptist was one of them.

Wait... what?!

Revelation 11:7 says:

“And when they have finished their testimony, THE BEAST THAT RISES FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT will make war on them and conquer them and kill them.”

So if you claim the Two Witnesses were Jesus and John the Baptist, you have some serious questions to answer:

1. Who exactly is this Beast?
2. Why was the Beast in the bottomless pit in the first place?
3. When was the Beast put there?
4. How long was the Beast restrained there?
5. Are you claiming Herod and/or Pilate was this Beast who “ascended out of the bottomless pit”?
6. How does ONE Beast make war against and kill BOTH witnesses when John was killed by Herod and Jesus was condemned under Pilate?

And where does Matthew 27:52–53 say John the Baptist was among the resurrected saints? It doesn’t.

You are connecting Jesus, John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate, and Matthew 27 to Revelation 11 without Scripture actually making those identifications. Bad move!

Before declaring that you have identified the Two Witnesses, reconcile your interpretation with Revelation 11:7 and the Beast who ascends from the bottomless pit.

Otherwise, this is speculation, not Scripture interpreting Scripture.