What is the atonement?

[markalan]

How far can we go in explaining the atonement (reconciliation)?

Romans 5:11​

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, ​

by whom we have now received the atonement​

​

2 Cor 5:18​

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, ​

and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation​

Isaiah 53:6​

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; ​

and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.​

Another way of asking the same question, might be "how does Jesus' death and resurrection save us"?

 

[quietthinker]

How far can we go in explaining the atonement (reconciliation)?

Romans 5:11​

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, ​

by whom we have now received the atonement​

​

2 Cor 5:18​

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, ​

and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation​

Isaiah 53:6​

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; ​

and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.​

Another way of asking the same question, might be "how does Jesus' death and resurrection save us"?

Forgiveness of sins patently visible for any who care to avail themselves.

 

[markalan]

Forgiveness of sins patently visible for any who care to avail themselves.

Yes, I agree the visible image of Jesus dying on the cross is effective in helping us to accept His sacrifice for our sins so we can be forgiven.

I would like to dig even further to ask why, or how, Jesus' death atoned for our sins.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, I agree the visible image of Jesus dying on the cross is effective in helping us to accept His sacrifice for our sins so we can be forgiven.

I would like to dig even further to ask why, or how, Jesus' death atoned for our sins.

It is assumed that God is angry with sinners. This is not true. God went looking for A&E in their shame; he came bearing gifts not punishment.
The death of Jesus (murdered by men) showed us that God would rather die than kill. He gave his life, it wasn't taken from him.
God forgives. He does not need payment to activate forgiveness. God forgives because he loves. It is his character.
As an illustration, do you require payment from your children before you forgive them? of course not. Why not? might it have something to do with loving them?

 

[markalan]

It is assumed that God is angry with sinners. This is not true. God went looking for A&E in their shame; he came bearing gifts not punishment.
The death of Jesus (murdered by men) showed us that God would rather die than kill. He gave his life, it wasn't taken from him.
God forgives. He does not need payment to activate forgiveness. God forgives because he loves. It is his character.
As an illustration, do you require payment from your children before you forgive them? of course not. Why not? might it have something to do with loving them?

I was prompted to pose the question in this thread by an article summarizing the 7 different explanations of the atonement.

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

It sounds to me that you would agree with the first of these explanations (theories) which is the "Moral Influence Theory" where the primary purpose of Jesus' life and death were an example of how believers should live.

 

[quietthinker]

I was prompted to pose the question in this thread by an article summarizing the 7 different explanations of the atonement.

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

It sounds to me that you would agree with the first of these explanations (theories) which is the "Moral Influence Theory" where the primary purpose of Jesus' life and death were an example of how believers should live.

Jesus' primary purpose is to reveal the REAL character of God,..... then and now.
It is God's character which has been maligned from the very beginning, from Lucifer onwards, specifically in every religion of the World.
The prophets railed against Israel's misrepresentation of God. Jesus shot straight when he highlighted the hypocrisy of the religious fraternity re their misrepresentation of God's character.

 

[markalan]

Jesus' primary purpose is to reveal the REAL character of God,..... then and now.
It is God's character which has been maligned from the very beginning, from Lucifer onwards, specifically in every religion of the World.
The prophets railed against Israel's misrepresentation of God. Jesus shot straight when he highlighted the hypocrisy of the religious fraternity re their misrepresentation of God's character.

Does that you mean you do not see Jesus' death as a sacrifice in payment for our sins?

How then are we to understand the references to Jesus' blood?

1 Peter 1:18-19
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things,
as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 

[Lambano]

I was prompted to pose the question in this thread by an article summarizing the 7 different explanations of the atonement.

Ah, you beat me to it.

I participated in some wonderful discussions on the Atonement in another forum with a brother who came to Christ from a Buddhist background. He found the Penal Substitution model that is dominant in Protestant theology to be grossly illogical. How can punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty be considered in any way, shape, or form "justice"? Is God so hypocritical that He can't forgive us the way He told us to forgive one another? And if a human father killed his own son because he was mad at his servants, they'd lock him up and throw away the key. Ransom theory? Who got paid off, Satan? Why does God bother to deal with terrorists? Just send in some of those 10 legions of angels Jesus talked about, drag ol' Beelzebub out by his forked tail and publicly string him up like we did Saddam Hussein. Modeling Christ's sacrifice after the OT sin offerings or Yom Kippur sacrifice? Ever seen a real blood sacrifice? He'd seen a Santeria sacrifice in Haiti and found it primitive, barbaric, and utterly repulsive, and expected better from Christians. And I couldn't disagree. He was intrigued by the Scapegoat model, so I bought the book Saved From Sacrifice by some weird theologian named Mark Heim. I was not impressed by Heim's arguments and was able to explain coherently why it was weak.

I don't know where we left it. I know more about the Atonement than I did before, but I don't find any of the models satisfactory.

 

[Lambano]

I don't know where we left it. I know more about the Atonement than I did before, but I don't find any of the models satisfactory.

This I do know: In His death, Christ identified with me in my sinfulness, and in my life, I am to identify with Him in His righteousness.

 

[quietthinker]

Does that you mean you do not see Jesus' death as a sacrifice in payment for our sins?

How then are we to understand the references to Jesus' blood?

1 Peter 1:18-19
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things,
as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Blood represents life. Jesus gave his life; it was not taken from him by anyone (John 10:18)

The idea that God requires blood for payment is Pagan in origin. This Pagan idea of an angry God has been appropriated by the Church and in so doing has joined with the pagan idea that God requires appeasing.

 

[markalan]

Blood represents life. Jesus gave his life; it was not taken from him by anyone (John 10:18)

Yes.

The idea that God requires blood for payment is Pagan in origin. This Pagan idea of an angry God has been appropriated by the Church and in so doing has joined with the pagan idea that God requires appeasing.

Penal substitution appears to be the most widely accepted explanation of the atonement among Evangelicals.

"Penal Substitution Theory: This theory sees the atonement of Christ as being a vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice that satisfied the demands of God’s justice upon sin. With His sacrifice, Christ paid the penalty of man’s sin, bringing forgiveness, imputing righteousness, and reconciling man to God. Those who hold this view believe that every aspect of man—his mind, will, and emotions—have been corrupted by sin and that man is totally depraved and spiritually dead. This view holds that Christ’s death paid the penalty for sin and that through faith man can accept Christ’s substitution as payment for sin. This view of the atonement aligns most accurately with Scripture in its view of sin, the nature of man, and the results of the death of Christ on the cross."​

​

Rather than seeing Jesus' death as appeasing an angry God, PS sees His life was given as a sacrifice "that satisfied God's justice".
God's law requires a penalty which humans could not pay ... so God Himself paid the penalty.
By accepting this atonement by faith, humans can receive the forgiveness of their sins.

Even if one were to accept this as the best Biblical explanation, it leaves the question of how Jesus' physical death paid the penalty of our sin which is spiritual death.

​

​

 

[markalan]

I don't know where we left it. I know more about the Atonement than I did before, but I don't find any of the models satisfactory.

I agree, however, I would say that aspects of each model contributes something to a more complete understanding.

 

[Taken]

What is the atonement?​

I would say “THE” atonement, “IS”
AN OFFERING…
OF…
A specific WAY;

BY…
Example;
For a human having been naturally Born Against God;

TO…
Become Forgiven;

AND…
Highly Blessed WITH;
A “specific” GIFT OFFERING;

TO…
Become “MADE ANEW”…
WITH God;

AND…
A Highly Prized “ASSURED PROMISE”;

BY…
Gods “SUPREME POWER”…

FOR ETERNITY;
Once the individual IS MADE ANEW WITH God …
NEVER AGAIN, can that Individual AND God,

BE…
ONE “WITH-OUT”, the OTHER.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[markalan]

What is the atonement?​

I would say “THE” atonement, “IS”
AN OFFERING…
OF…
A specific WAY;

BY…
Example;
For a human having been naturally Born Against God;

TO…
Become Forgiven;

AND…
Highly Blessed WITH;
A “specific” GIFT OFFERING;

TO…
Become “MADE ANEW”…
WITH God;

AND…
A Highly Prized “ASSURED PROMISE”;

BY…
Gods “SUPREME POWER”…

FOR ETERNITY;
Once the individual IS MADE ANEW WITH God …
NEVER AGAIN, can that Individual AND God,

BE…
ONE “WITH-OUT”, the OTHER.

Glory to God,
Taken

A very good enumeration of the blessings bestowed on us by the atonement.

How would you reply to the question that often comes up - how did Jesus' physical death pay the penalty for our sin which is spiritual death?

 

[Taken]

Blood represents life.

Blood IS the Life of a human.

The idea that God requires blood for payment is Pagan in origin. This Pagan idea of an angry God has been appropriated by the Church and in so doing has joined with the pagan idea that God requires appeasing.

Disagree. Not pagan.

God Himself “Requires” the Life (Blood) of every Human Period.

Human men “WHO” Freely, Willingly…
Promise, Give, their Human Blood Life… TO the Lord God Almighty…

In “Return”…
Gods “Payment of debt unto That individual”…
IS …
Eternal SPIRITUAL Life, With God.

Gen 9:
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will Irequire; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

It is a curious thing…
A “blood life” human is naturally Born Against God.

All human “Blood Life Must, Shall, Will Die”.

While the human “Blood Life IS Living”…
That IS, that humans Opportunity / Chance / Specific, Limited Timing…
TO…
Decide, Pick, Choose, Elect…
To (Heartfully) Believe IN God…(or not).

Once that “Blood Life IS Deceased”…the Blood Life, has NO Option to Choose Anything.

Once that Living Blood Life HAS Committed Their Heartful Choice, Choosing, Election To and Of God…

Their “timing” of their Natural Blood Life, “That MUST” IS Secure … That God Shall, Will, Must…
Raise Their Body ANEW in A “blood-less”… Body, Spiritual Life Forever With God.

1 Cor. 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Glory to God
Taken

 

[quietthinker]

Rather than seeing Jesus' death as appeasing an angry God, PS sees His life was given as a sacrifice "that satisfied God's justice".
God's law requires a penalty which humans could not pay ... so God Himself paid the penalty.
By accepting this atonement by faith, humans can receive the forgiveness of their sins.

It's an identical idea, iow, the same thing.

God Himself “Requires” the Life (Blood) of every Human Period.

I'd say the Devil does, not God. The Devil makes it appear that God requires it. God no more requires life of a person than you do the life of your child when they are recalcitrant.

Do we resort to OT texts when they suit our theology of blood lust or do we rely on the attitude and character of Jesus?

I find it peculiar when it is said, 'the law has been done away with' so people can excuse and with impunity break the law but when it comes to penal substitution which they favour( as do pagans) they hurriedly pull out the law.

 

[markalan]

It's an identical idea, iow, the same thing.

I do not see justice and anger as the same thing ... perfect love requires perfect justice.

Justice requires law and penalty.

God's "wrath" can be understood as total rejection of sin.

The OT gives us insight into God's nature ... and if we look at the book of Hebrews we see that the author appeals to the OT (esp Heb 9) in presenting his arguments concerning the atonement and the blood of Jesus.

 

[Taken]

A very good enumeration of the blessings bestowed on us by the atonement.

How would you reply to the question that often comes up - how did Jesus' physical death pay the penalty for our sin which is spiritual death?

Sort of a “How” - “Why” question.
Wordy, hope it answers your question with perspective.

Backing up Anciently to Modernly…
God IS Spirit and Invisible.
The anomaly…
Teaching to any Human, what they can Not, see, hear, smell, touch, feel, taste…

The remedy…
Teach TO…Eager Listeners
In the Fashion OF…Little by Little
Similitudes OF what the Listener already knows.

Names, Titles, Roles,
Dad, Head, God, Creator, Father, Director…
Mom, Helper, Lord, Son, Maker, Hand holder, Example, showing how to…
(Obviously more detailed)…

The Lord Himself IS Spirit, IS Invisible…
Yet…ALSO … “the MADE Example” for humans…
Thus…
Considering… A humans Natural inability, to Believe… What he can Not See, hear, etc.

The Brilliant…Plan of God…
4,000 years… of humans, hearing ABOUT, wondering, trials, errors, believing, rejecting, fears, frustrations, noticing … “good / bad” …
And noticing results.

So, CAN God DO All things? No.
Can God Lie? No.
Can God Be Created? No
Can God Be Made? Yes

What is the difference between…
Created AND Made?
Created “Exists”…
Made “IS” A specific “Effect” upon a “thing” that “exists”.

Earth was “created dark”… then “made to have light”
Adam was “created bodily whole”…then “made alive”

Gods Word was Not “Created”, but Hidden IN God.
Gods Word was “Made” … Revealed…when God Sent His Word forth out of His Mouth and “Said”…
Gen 1:3 “God said…”

For 4,000 years, repeatedly “God said”…
And?
The population of men increased, wonderings increased…
Challenges increased… Many… never experienced, noticed, heard God speaking TO them.
Debates, philosophies, science discoveries, easy street, poverty, famines… Each individual…hearing ABOUT this invisible God…
And wondering or settling on their own personal experience of fear, comfort, trust, rejection.

2,000 years ago… a Dramatic, Phenomenal,
(Foretold Promise,) was Manifested For Human men… TO SEE, hear, smell, touch, taste…eat.

Isa. 55: (full chapter for context)
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Eph 1 ( Purposed in WHO ?)
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

What?
Phil 2:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Why? (For, Because)
(Mankind struggled to Believe what he could Not See.)

And In Keeping God Holy… unseen by Sinful eyes of mankind…

God Prepared a Body for His Word, FOR ManKind To See…
Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

And God Said…
While Father God remained unseen IN Heaven, and His Word remaineth In God, His Word would Be Sent TO Earth, in a prepared Body…
Called Gods Son, Gods Faithful, Gods Truth, Gods Power…Gods Offering of That Prepared Body, (with Blood)…for the Blood Life of All men…
WHO freely Choose Him.

Heb 1:
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son

His prepared blood bodily death…
Secured the Option for a man, committing to “heartful belief”… that that man’s own Blood life… ( which will, shall, must Die…)…
Shall Die, whenever, where-ever, how-ever…
That ONLY God, can claim the man’s body…
And Shall, Will, Must…
Raise that Body in Eternal living Glory, unto (with), God Himself.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I'd say the Devil does, not God. The Devil makes it appear that God requires it. God no more requires life of a person than you do the life of your child when they are recalcitrant.

Disagree.

Gen 9:
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will Irequire; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Do we resort to OT texts when they suit our theology of blood lust or do we rely on the attitude and character of Jesus?

OT text set the stage, so to speak.

I find it peculiar when it is said, 'the law has been done away with' so people can excuse and with impunity break the law but when it comes to penal substitution which they favour( as do pagans) they hurriedly pull out the law.

The Law… was Not “done away with”.

Done “away with the Law is a repeal. As if the Law had not existed”.

The Law…was given to a people.

The Positive / Law has no Effect, without a people agreeing to abide by the Law.

The “penal / Negative Effect of the Law, does not Require the “people’s agreement” before the Law is used in purpose.

The Mosaic Law… was given the Hebrews / then generationally…the Tribes / Jews.

The Hebrews…Agreed to Abide.

Ex 19:

1. [8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

The law was not destroyed.
The Law was fulfilled.
A task fulfilled, does not require repeating.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[quietthinker]

I do not see justice and anger as the same thing ... perfect love requires perfect justice.

Justice requires law and penalty.

God's "wrath" can be understood as total rejection of sin.

The OT gives us insight into God's nature ... and if we look at the book of Hebrews we see that the author appeals to the OT (esp Heb 9) in presenting his arguments concerning the atonement and the blood of Jesus.

Man's definition of justice is payback
God's definition of justice is liberation from oppression, iow forgiveness.

God's wrath is to be understood as Paul aptly defines it in Romans 1.

If one chooses the definition of justice to mean payback, one either consciously or unconsciously chooses the methods of Satan. Now that's deception. It attributes to God the character of the Devil.