Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[shepherdsword]

You do understand that in the text habitual sin is spoken of here

God does not overrule your free will. A new believer is a babe in Christ. While his nature is changed he does not even know every possible sin

Again if you think you never sin. I would take heed to what John said.

I didn't say I never sin. However, I do recognize that Christ's work allows a full victory and I fail to achieve it because I am weak.

Because it is a dangerous place to be

It is very dangerous to make a provision for sin claiming there is no victory. Why not just humble yourself and acknowledge your failure? We can't do it without grace anyway. God gives grace to the humble. He will resist us if we are proud.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't know what they are teaching in the churches these days....but whatever it is it's just adding to the confusion.

1. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world...buying it back with His shed blood. How? The world fell into sin because of Adam's sin....but Jesus defeated sin and death. God saves people in two ways....by mercy, and for glory. The righteous will see mercy. The saints will know glory.

Here again is the flaw in Epi's gospel.

the righteous will see mercy? The righteous does not need mercy, because they are righteous. the sinner needs mercy, because they have no hope.

Jesus paid the debt we owe God, which is perfect righteousness. The law required perfection. No one has met that standard. All have sinned and fall short.

Jesus because the lamb of God who removed the wage of sin in our place. He who knew no sin was made sin so we may be made the righteousness OF CHRIST. through him.

2. That sacrifice makes it possible to live in God's presence.. for the saint right now, and for the righteous, in the next age as they INHERIT life in the future nations.

Again, He puffs himself up. and leads people astray. Thinking like the pharisees did that is their righteousness which makes them right with God. They crucified Christ because he rejected their percieved righteousness..

3. The only salvation right now is to be saved from sin.

From the penalty of sin. I have been saved.. the wage of sin is death, the GIFT OF GOD IS LIFE!

Salvation is a gift. it can not be earned, Salvation is from the wage of sin.. Thats what Justification is..

That salvation includes translation into the kingdom realm so that we are then under grace...the power over sin. From there we walk in the Spirit just as Jesus walked....overcoming as Jesus overcame.

and hear we go. The higher walk epi demands his followers must achieve if they want to see God. hance again rejecting the grace of God

4. There are 2 standards we will be judged by. For the righteous, meek and God-fearing...there is mercy. For the saint a MUCH HARDER judgment unto eternal glory....or eternal shame

there is one standard we will be judged by

1. The law.. no one has kept the law. As jesus said no one is good but God

2. The cross - Forgiveness of sin paid for by the redemption which is Christ Jesus. who shed his blood for the forgiveness of sin

no one will stand in front of god based on their own righteousness and make it out of hell

5. Most modern believers CLAIM to be God's and call on the name of the Lord. That is fine unless one also judges others and refuses to extend mercy to others. Unless we show mercy then we will not receive mercy. Believers must depart from iniquity or suffer rejection on judgment day.

A child of God will depart iniquity.. Like most legalistic people. they deny God changed us and made us to a new creation. They continue to deny Gods mercy and salvation and make themselves right with God.

well like the jew find out. these people will find out

6. If we want an easier judgment, then we won't condemn others, make outlandish claims, speak lies, twist the meaning of scriptures etc... Also, God judges teachers a lot harder....since IF they have believed a lie and spread that lie they are more responsible for it. It would be better not to have been born in that case.

There will be no easier judgment

You either come to God in faith and recieve his grace.

Or you reject his grace and suffer the second death

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn't say I never sin. However, I do recognize that Christ's work allows a full victory and I fail to achieve it because I am weak.

you and I will have full victory, when we meet Christ in our glorified body.

We will also have many victories in this lifetime

We will not however. be fully sanctified in this lifetime. We are a work in progress. that work will continue until we die.

Thats why we MUST take the focus off self. and put it on Christ. If I think I made it, if I think I finished the race. I can no longer learn. and will no longer be trained by God. because we do not think we need help.

It is very dangerous to make a provision for sin claiming there is no victory.

No one is making a provision for sin.

Why not just humble yourself and acknowledge your failure?

I humble myself and acknowledge my failure. I am not the one here claiming sinless perfection.. Why are you not asking them this question. it relates to them not me

We can't do it without grace anyway. God gives grace to the humble. He will resist us if we are proud.

100 %

so if I think I have arrived on some higher plane where I no longer sin.. then I am in trouble.. I need to humble myself and not pump my chest or pat myself on the back that I have made it.

 

[Behold]

Personally, I've never heard a pastor use the term "sinless perfection." But whenever I have taught that Jesus said He takes away our sin,

Reader,

The reason so many carnal Christians and religous people pretending to be a Christian on this Forum are so utterly confused about God's ""GIFT of Salvation"""....= what it is, and how it is provided.........is very simple.

Most of the time, their confusion is related to "works" and "water baptism".

So, if we just look at "works"...

Now, be honest...Reader,..... and tell God how many good works you were doing for Him, during your lifetime of living in sin, .......before you were saved.....

Ok, if you are honest, then your answer is......>"well, sometimes i did good deeds, but i was not doing them while thinking i was pleasing God".
Now isn't that true or must you continue to lie?
Listen, you had no GOD in your mind, or in your heart, or in your reason for doing something good, when you were a hell bound sinner.

So, the HONEST answer is...>"well, until i was SAVED......i was living in sin and enjoying it and sometimes i did some good deeds, but not for God...........it was just that the situataion called for a good deed and i happened to be available and so i did it".

Now, when we are honest about our sinful past lives and our sometimes good deeds we did as unsaved SINNERS.........we see that we never did any of this trying to please God......(especially the "lifetime of sinning" .. part.

So, what happens is........ you have a Chrisitian who forgot what they were doing all their sinning LIVES, right up until they were saved, who are now preaching mindless theolgical ignorance/heresy... that sounds like Episkopos's Videos and Threads.

= "well, im doing all these works to stay saved"........>"im doing all these works that are required by God, so that i can keep from losing my salvation". "im doing all these works to try to prove that im doing righteousness of MYSELF"....

YET< you were not doing any of that on the day in your past when God saved you for all eternity, while you were "Yet and ungodly sinnder".
So, how did you get confused about that to such an extreme that you now want to teach the lie that your stupid works are somehow a part of God's Eternal Justification of YOU ?

OK, i know why.
And here is why.

1st) You are under the dark influence of a Heretic and a Cult and their Cross Rejecting Theology.

2.) You have not yet understood that your SALVATION is JESUS on THE CROSS.............and your Discipleship is simply the works you do, now that God has SAVED you while you were "yet a sinner".

So, just as soon as you understand that Salvation is what God does for you, and your Discipeship is what you do AFTER you are already SAVED and Heaven Bound.............then once you understand that Salvation and Discipeship are not the same.....then you have literally begun to finally : "work out your Salvation".

 

[Episkopos]

Reader,

The reason so many carnal Christians and religous people pretending to be a Christian on this Forum are so utterly confused about God's ""GIFT of Salvation"""....= what it is, and how it is provided.........is very simple.

Most of the time, their confusion is related to "works" and "water baptism".

So, if we just look at "works"...

Now, be honest...Reader,..... and tell God how many good works you were doing for Him, during your lifetime of living in sin, .......before you were saved.....

Ok, if you are honest, then your answer is......>"well, sometimes i did good deeds, but i was not doing them while thinking i was pleasing God".
Now isn't that true or must you continue to lie?
Listen, you had no GOD in your mind, or in your heart, or in your reason for doing something good, when you were a hell bound sinner.

So, the HONEST answer is...>"well, until i was SAVED......i was living in sin and enjoying it and sometimes i did some good deeds, but not for God...........it was just that the situataion called for a good deed and i happened to be available and so i did it".

Now, when we are honest about our sinful past lives and our sometimes good deeds we did as unsaved SINNERS.........we see that we never did any of this trying to please God......(especially the "lifetime of sinning" .. part.

So, what happens is........ you have a Chrisitian who forgot what they were doing all their sinning LIVES, right up until they were saved, who are now preaching mindless theolgical ignorance/heresy... that sounds like Episkopos's Videos and Threads.

= "well, im doing all these works to stay saved"........>"im doing all these works that are required by God, so that i can keep from losing my salvation". "im doing all these works to try to prove that im doing righteousness of MYSELF"....

YET< you were not doing any of that on the day in your past when God saved you for all eternity, while you were "Yet and ungodly sinnder".
So, how did you get confused about that to such an extreme that you now want to teach the lie that your stupid works are somehow a part of God's Eternal Justification of YOU ?

OK, i know why.
And here is why.

1st) You are under the dark influence of a Heretic and a Cult and their Cross Rejecting Theology.

2.) You have not yet understood that your SALVATION is JESUS on THE CROSS.............and your Discipleship is simply the works you do, now that God has SAVED you while you were "yet a sinner".

So, just as soon as you understand that Salvation is what God does for you, and your Discipeship is what you do AFTER you are already SAVED and Heaven Bound.............then once you understand that Salvation and Discipeship are not the same.....then you have literally begun to finally : "work out your Salvation".

Jesus on the cross is about the world...not the church. US on the cross is Christianity. Those who follow Christ (amazingly few) follow Him through His death and resurrection...to inherit glory in the next age.

The atonement for the world by the blood of Jesus concerns saving the meek and God-fearers who DO righteousness.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34-35

The reader who I am responding to here does not respect God's word or follow the teachings of Jesus. Readers beware.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

the sin nature is crucified, but we still have the flesh.

it is the lfesh that causes us to sin. while it is no longer natural for us to sin, we stil war with the flesh.

thats why we will never be sinless in this lifetime. Until the flesh is gone.. when we are ressurected

You are talking about our body of flesh that is visible, but that is not where sin resides. When your invisible carnal nature called "the flesh" has been crucified, you are free from sins unto death. That is the first phase of our faith by the Author of our faith, Jesus. The second faith is a phase of Jesus as the Finisher of our faith maturing the fruit of the Spirit as we abide in Jesus. If we stop abiding in Jesus for some reason, and we stop bearing fruit, we will be cut off and burned. John 15:1-4

EG, you are not reckoning yourself free from sin are you? That is a dangerous place to be and you've opened yourself to a doctrine of demons that wants you to still be sinning when you die. But if you experience being born again and as a result have no desire to break a commandment of God, then claim that and "reckon yourself dead to sin, lest sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts."

 

[CrowCross]

I believe it was actually added to some bibles

but either way it does not matter

there is no condemnation to those who are in christ. Who are those who are in christ. They walk not after the flesh but after the spirit.

that is not prescriptive, it is descriptive.

I agree. Those who walk after the flesh....are not saved.

On the other hand many forget as christians we slip and fall...have a bad season...and sometimes walk after the flesh.
But, this is not the context Romans 8 is speaking about.

 

[CrowCross]

I don't know what they are teaching in the churches these days....but whatever it is it's just adding to the confusion.

1. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world...buying it back with His shed blood. How? The world fell into sin because of Adam's sin....but Jesus defeated sin and death. God saves people in two ways....by mercy, and for glory. The righteous will see mercy. The saints will know glory.

2. That sacrifice makes it possible to live in God's presence.. for the saint right now, and for the righteous, in the next age as they INHERIT life in the future nations.

3. The only salvation right now is to be saved from sin. That salvation includes translation into the kingdom realm so that we are then under grace...the power over sin. From there we walk in the Spirit just as Jesus walked....overcoming as Jesus overcame.

4. There are 2 standards we will be judged by. For the righteous, meek and God-fearing...there is mercy. For the saint a MUCH HARDER judgment unto eternal glory....or eternal shame

5. Most modern believers CLAIM to be God's and call on the name of the Lord. That is fine unless one also judges others and refuses to extend mercy to others. Unless we show mercy then we will not receive mercy. Believers must depart from iniquity or suffer rejection on judgment day.

6. If we want an easier judgment, then we won't condemn others, make outlandish claims, speak lies, twist the meaning of scriptures etc... Also, God judges teachers a lot harder....since IF they have believed a lie and spread that lie they are more responsible for it. It would be better not to have been born in that case.

I see a form of legalism.

The elect are righteous in Gods eyes.

You then have the gall to say...."Believers must depart from iniquity or suffer rejection on judgment day."
EVERY, EVERY, EVERY Christian has moments or even days or seasons of iniquity. EVEN YOU.
Do you know what that means???? According to your theology?....You're gonna suffer rejection on judgment day because you still sin.

Now, considering you still sin...how you gonna make it in?

 

[CrowCross]

...in the form of power against sin. There are no favourites with God. All will be judged by what they do. We reap as WE sow.

Grace is not a license to sin. Or an excuse to think you can just try in your flesh to not sin. Grace is God's power over sin. Enter INTO Christ and walk in victory.

I never said grace was a license to sin. Never. But, we still do sin. For you I would imagine it's only 2 or 3 times a year that you sin.

 

[ProDeo]

does anyone walk after the spirit 24/7?

They can not live in sin (1 John 3) but to say they have no sin. John said we are decieved if we think this.

You people pull out this single verse as if it is a visa card to remain in sin. It's the only verse you have but it doesn't mean what you think it does

What an ugly thing to say, notable you as a mod, accusing collectively (you people) they prefer to remain in their sins.

The subject in question is a hard theological theoretic debate, can we PLEASE do this without judgements ?

 

[ProDeo]

Reader,


So, just as soon as you understand that Salvation is what God does for you, and your Discipeship is what you do AFTER you are already SAVED and Heaven Bound.............then once you understand that Salvation and Discipeship are not the same.....then you have literally begun to finally : "work out your Salvation".

work out your Salvation with fear and trembling.

Tell me what that means to you.

For instance -

Hebr 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Hebr 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

 

[shepherdsword]

What an ugly thing to say, notable you as a mod, accusing collectively (you people) they prefer to remain in their sins.

The subject in question is a hard theological theoretic debate, can we PLEASE do this without judgements ?

I am talking to a group of people who use that single verse every time the possibility of perfection is discussed. On the one hand, you tell me not to judge...and on the other you turn around and judge me...falsely.

 

[Episkopos]

I see a form of legalism.

The elect are righteous in Gods eyes.

The elect are called to go beyond their own capacity for righteousness. They are called to fulfill God's righteousness.

You then have the gall to say...."Believers must depart from iniquity or suffer rejection on judgment day."

The truth to say....

EVERY, EVERY, EVERY Christian has moments or even days or seasons of iniquity. EVEN YOU.

You are plainly not understanding the meaning of iniquity. The bible describes 3 kinds of sin. Have you ever actually studied the bible?

So you are reacting in ignorance to something you are assuming.

The 3 kinds of sin are Pesha, chata-ah and avon. The last of these is iniquity. Think of these as a road with a ditch on each side. Do a study....

Do you know what that means???? According to your theology?....You're gonna suffer rejection on judgment day because you still sin.

The righteous still sin (chata-ah) but they have no guile or hypocrisy (avon).

Now, considering you still sin...how you gonna make it in?

By grace through faith.

 

[CrowCross]

The elect are called to go beyond their own capacity for righteousness. They are called to fulfill God's righteousness.

And according to your biblical standards....you're there?

 

[Episkopos]

And according to your biblical standards....you're there?

My biblical standards? I think you are too used to human interpretations to understand what the bible is trying to convey.

I was indeed there. But you would have to understand the way God disciples His people. The potential saint goes in and out of the spiritual realm for training in righteousness. We learn to SUPPORT in righteousness what we receive in holiness.

But you have many years of study and seeking before you can understand such things.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Amen.

Filipp 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Filipp 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Filipp 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Filipp 3:15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
Filipp 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

If Paul does not call himself perfect....... but then again he has been in his Romans 7 experience and knows all about his flesh.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The idea alone I could be perfect like Jesus is insane to me and in the hypothetical case it is possible in this life saying so would be the ultimate form of pride. That's just me, how I feel about the issue, I could be wrong, would not be the first time and so it is not meant as judgement of people who think different.

Like Paul I am not already perfect, but I strive for it.

It is possible to live a sinless life! All one has to do is live in the power of the Holy Spirit 24/7 and never give in even for a nanosecond to the flesh. No one has done it. No one can and that is why god has such great mercy on His children as he is sanctifying us.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are missing the step-wise progression between "It is no longer I but sin in me" to "It is no longer I but Christ in me" maybe you didn't get the memo??? Most modern type believers see no difference between sin in a person and Christ in a person. Why??? They have never entered into Christ to be delivered from the POWER of sin. The gospel is about POWER...not just pretend religiosity.

You have not yet understood the gospel and the power of the cross.

You suck at knowing ones soul. By these words you are saying I have never been saved! That is a lie you need to repent of.

We are the children of God. Yet we still retain our old nature which can do nothing but sin. Sin tempts and WE yield to the temptation and commit sin.

1 John 1:8-10 King James Version​

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Not if one enters into Christ to walk as He walked. We are to overcome just as Jesus did by grace through faith.

and that is a process, not a one time for all act.

This is a pretend doctrine that was invented to explain away the power of the gospel. Pretending is safe for children. But it is not safe for those who call on the name of the Lord. We are to flee iniquity...not bask in it.

So now you say Paul invented false doctrine. Okay then. Have the last word.

For a man on you tube- who claims to know Scripture, you better study more.

 

[ProDeo]

I am talking to a group of people who use that single verse every time the possibility of perfection is discussed. On the one hand, you tell me not to judge...and on the other you turn around and judge me...falsely.

Preamble

Of course I am not against holiness, it is a demand.

Hebr 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Hebr 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

If someone believes and acts differently that person is playing with fire.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back to topic, 1 John is a hard nut to crack if you read / understand it literally, actually then John would contradict himself several times.

1Joh 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil;
1Joh 1:10 - If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Contradiction ?

One sin and suddenly we are from the devil, we confess and we are back, not of the devil? That does not sound like the Gospel message.

1Joh 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Joh 1:8 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Contradiction ?

I am looking for a coherent exegesis and if you have feel free to look at the speck that is in your brother's eye.

 

[Episkopos]

You suck at knowing ones soul. By these words you are saying I have never been saved! That is a lie you need to repent of.

This is a very narcissistic response. I am simply conveying what the power of the gospel is...that Paul preached. If that doesn't line up with your lack of experience, that doesn't make it wrong.

You have to remove yourself from being the center of everything. Repentance needs to come from you. You need to turn from your religious ways.

It's far better to fear the Lord and seek Him for yourself. Seek Him while He may be found.

We are the children of God.

Sure

Yet we still retain our old nature which can do nothing but sin. Sin tempts and WE yield to the temptation and commit sin.

This is not a good testimony. God gives us a NEW nature in Christ. And that new nature comes to the fore by the power of the cross that crucifies the old sin nature.

If you haven't yet experienced that, I'm not the one sinning by telling you that.

1 John 1:8-10 King James Version​

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

and that is a process, not a one time for all act.

So now you say Paul invented false doctrine. Okay then. Have the last word.

For a man on you tube- who claims to know Scripture, you better study more.

All have sinned. Find a verse that says.....ALL WILL sin. You will see that the opposite is true. You need to stop cherry picking verses that you can easily take out of context....unless you don't care about the truth.

Whoever sins has not seen Him or known Him.

He who is born again does not sin.

Try finding some balance in your understanding. I have done extensive studies....you should try it...with HONESTY....not in a self-seeking way.

 

[Behold]

The elect are called to go beyond their own capacity for righteousness. They are called to fulfill God's righteousness.

Teaching that Sinners (*The Elect)...

"Jesus came into the world to save Sinners... (The Elect)...

So, if you teach that a saved sinner (The Elect).... can "fulfill God's Righteousness", of themselves by WORKS, as you keep lying about, then you've just revealed that you have no understanding of God's "Inputed Righteousness" , and how you get it, as a Gift from God.