++++No. 1 Thes 4 is talking about the rapture of the Church. The rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened, before the great tribulation.
That's the way I see it too Light
Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ
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That's the way I see it too Light
The Light
Well-Known Member
When the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means Armageddon is over. After that Christ sets His feet on the Mount of Olives...the second advent.
Those 7 trumpets and 7 vials are the wrath of God. The Church is not appointed to wrath and yet you have the Church on the earth when the wrath of God occurs. Was Noah left on the earth when the flood came which was Gods wrath. Was Lot left in Sodom when the wrath of God came...........NO. Why would you think that God would change His character and pattern and leave the Church on the earth while His wrath is going on?
The Church won't even be here for the great tribulation, let alone the wrath of God. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. It is the Jews that will be hunted and killed by the dragon, not the Church. The Jews, the twelve tribes across the earth will have their blindness removed. When the dragon can't get to the woman, Israel, because she has fled to a place of protection, he goes after her seed. These are 12 tribes across the earth.
The 12 tribes across the earth will be raptured at the 6th seal at the second coming. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and are part of the great multitude that are seen in heaven in Rev 7 and 19. They are not appointed to wrath either.
Here is the Church in heaven.
Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Here are 24 elders with reward crowns which prove that Jesus has come and His reward was with Him.
Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
I'm not sure how you are missing this Davy.
The Church is keeping the word of His patience. We will be kept from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world. God keeps His Word. Why don't you see this scripture?
Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
We will also escape ALL THESE THINGS and stand before the Son of man.
Luke 21
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
This is true..........and yet there only remains 3.5 years in the 70th week of Daniel.
And scripture confirms.
Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. The Church is already gone. Those of the 12 tribes whose eyes are opened to the Messiah will be raptured immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal. Then the 7th is opened and the wrath of God begins which are the 7 trumpets and 7 vials.
No Davy. In I Thessalonians 4 the Church is gathered from the earth and are taken to heaven. This happens before the seals are opened. Once the Church is in heaven, the earth is in chaos. The 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse ride. Then the great tribulation which is when the dragon hunts down the seed of the woman, Israel, the 12 tribes across the earth. They will keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. These are the second harvest of the fig tree and will be raptured on the last day of the age which is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.
We see this event spoken of in Daniel 12. We see war in heaven. We see the great tribulation, and we see that MANY are raised. Not all are raised............MANY.
Daniel 12
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
There are many, many things that you do not understand. The end of the age does not occur at the 7th trumpet. It occurs at the second coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God occurs. It is the day of vengeance which lasts ONE YEAR, according to the Word of God.
After Armageddon Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives. The comes the judgement.
Who is judged?. It's not the Church. The Church is already in heaven and the 24 elders with crowns prove that Jesus has come and His reward was with Him.
It's not the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth. They are already in heaven as the ones that come out of the great tribulation and the ones that are raised up on the last day.
So who is judged at the time of judgement after Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives?
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, Christ's coming happens WHEN He comes to take over all the kingdoms of this world. That is 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial timing. The battle of Armageddon is fought by Christ and His armies coming from Heaven on the day of His future coming, the ONLY coming left written of in God's Word (See Zech.9:9-10; only TWO advents by Christ Jesus are written). That is the same day of His coming to gather His faithful Church.
Nope.
There's a difference between the 'wrath' of the 1-6 Vials and the final 7th Vial. The final 7th Vial is the 'cup' of God's Wrath on the day of Christ's coming to end this present world and takeover all kingdoms on earth. It is that particular 'cup' of God's Wrath on the 7th Vial that Apostle Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that Christ's Church is not appointed to.
That is why Paul was also talking about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" in that 1 Thessalonians 5 Chapter. That means the LAST DAY of this present world. And that is the day when that "sudden destruction" will happen upon the wicked like Paul also revealed accompanies the coming of that "day of the Lord."
I won't waste my time responding to the above, because that is NOT what is written in God's Word in Rev.7 nor Rev.19. That instead is ADDING men's doctrine to God's written Word.
You show lack of reading comprehension, because the above Scripture about "hast made us unto our God kings and priests:..." is FUTURE TENSE FOR AFTER CHRIST'S FUTURE RETURN AND TAKEOVER OF ALL KINGDOMS ON THIS EARTH. The 7th Vial and 7th Trumpet will have happened when the above is fulfilled. Thus it is gross error to try and apply that to a pre-trib rapture.
Like I pointed out to you per Revelation 11:18, Christ's rewards (like the crowns), are not handed out to the saints until AFTER Jesus future coming on the 7th Trumpet (i.e., Paul's "last trump" of 1 Cor.15). You are ADDING to the Scripture.
You do not understand what that "hour of temptation" is about. Man's false pre-trib rapture theory does not prepare you for it.
Since Lord Jesus showed in Mark 13 that some in His Church will be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan in order to give a TESTIMONY for Jesus against the beast, that reveals the "hour of temptation" must involve a major event of DECEPTION. And that is what Christ's elect escape during the coming tribulation going through it and giving that WITNESS for Jesus by The Holy Spirit.
Likewise, like Jesus forewarned in Matthew 24:23-26 about the coming of a pseudo-Christ that will have power of GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS, that IF... it were possible, would deceive even His "very elect", that also reveals Christ's elect Church WILL BE HERE THROUGH THE COMING "great tribulation".
Thus the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture teaches USING THEIR FLESH that "hour of temptation" is about PHYSICAL ESCAPE.
But it is NOT ABOUT PHYSICAL ESCAPE. It is about ESCAPE FROM SPIRITUAL DECEPTION IN THAT HOUR. That is why that "hour" is also used as a symbol for the "great tribulation" time when all ten virgins fall asleep waiting on The Bridegroom. It represents the 11th hour in that parable, as it shows the Bridegroom (Jesus) coming at Midnight. (See also Matthew 20:6-16; Matthew 26:40-41; Mark 13:11.)
The 1 Thessalonians 4:17 verse is about your so-called 'rapture' idea, which the word rapture is not written in God's Word. It instead is the Greek word harpazo translated to "caught up" in the KJV. That 17th verse ONLY is about the saints still alive on earth being "caught up" to Jesus at His coming.
The previous 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 verses are about Jesus' gathering of the asleep saints that had already died, and are already there with Him. Paul said Jesus will bring those with Him when He descends to earth, and that they must first be resurrected.
Thus what Apostle Paul actually taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:
1. Jesus gathers TWO SEPARATE GROUPS of His saints on the day of His future coming.
2. Jesus gathers first the RESURRECTED SAINTS, FROM HEAVEN, AND BRINGS THEM WITH HIM ON HIS DESCENT TO EARTH.
3. Then, Jesus gathers the saints still alive on earth, as they will be "caught up" to Him ON HIS DESCENT TO THIS EARTH.
4. Then per the Zechariah 14 Scripture on that day, Jesus' feet touch down upon the MOUNT OF OLIVES ON EARTH, bringing all... His faithful saints with Him there, TO EARTH, and takes over all kingdoms of this world and begins His promised reign with a "rod of iron."
There is NO SCRIPTURE WRITTEN THAT SAYS JESUS COMES TO GATHER HIS CHURCH AND THEN GOES BACK INTO HEAVEN.
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The Light
Well-Known Member
This is totally incorrect and a misrepresentation of what I am saying. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is GODS WRATH. We are not appointed to GODS WRATH. And yet you have the Church on earth during the wrath of God.
As I said. Your argument is nonsense because I am fully aware that it is GODS WRATH that is being discussed in 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
Now explain why your view has the Church on the earth during the wrath of God. Your view doesn't work.
You are missing the part where Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days which is the great tribulation and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth..........AT THE 6TH SEAL.
You claims are totally and completely unscriptural. You have the Church on the earth during the wrath God when the Word clearly says that we are not appointed to wrath.
By the way, Pre trib has so called tribulation saints on the earth during the wrath of God. They fail to understand that there are two raptures and it is the Jews that go through the great tribulation. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. And it is Jews that are raptured at the 6th seal, because BELIEVERS ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH......which is the 7th seal.
The last day of the age that is spoken of in Matthew 24 is coming of Jesus AT THE 6TH SEAL. It is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. These TWO FOLDS are joined into ONE FOLD which is the great multitude seen in Rev 7 and Rev 19.
Gods people are not appointed to wrath and yet you have the Church ON THE EARTH going through God's wrath in your incorrect interpretation of the Word of God.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Just one question.
If what you are saying is true, why is Christ coming immediately AFTER the tribulation for Armageddon. If He only comes one time that would be impossible.
Negative. All the trumpets and vials are Gods wrath. And yes, the Day of the Lord occurs at the 7th trumpet / 7th vial.
God wrath is the day of vengeance and it lasts for ONE YEAR.
The end of the age is the second coming and that occurs at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God lasts ONE YEAR before Jesus returns for Armageddon.
The Day of the Lord is the day of sudden destruction and it occurs at the 7th trumpet.
You can't respond because you lack understanding. Why do you have the Church on the earth during the wrath of God. God CLEARLY tells us that believers are not appointed to wrath.
You say the Church is raptured from the earth just prior to the Day of the Lord, BUT AS WE KNOW, there is no scripture to support this line of thought. You add to scripture.
Please provide a scripture that show a rapture just before the 7th trumpet. You can't.
Please. Future tense???????? Please. It's present tense in the vision and the kings and priests are in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened in the vision.
Why does every single argument you have go against the scripture? The Church will be kings and priests before the seals are opened and the 5th seal is the great tribulation.
Cut and dried, FACT. The Church will be in heaven before the great tribulation.
Cut and dried, FACT. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble and it is for the Jews.
Cut and dried, FACT. Part of Israel will have its eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
Cut and dried, FACT. Believers are not appointed to wrath and yet you have the Church on the earth during the wrath of God.
What have I added? You're the one adding to scripture. You add FUTURE TENSE to the kings and priests in Rev 5 when it is present tense in the vision and in the vision, the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened and the 5th seal is the great tribulation.
You have to continually go against the facts of scripture and deny what is written to get you views work. I don't have to deny or change anything because what is written is what I believe.
Again. You have to deny what is written. The Lord says, He will keep the Church from the hour of temptation that will come upon the whole world. He also says that we can escape ALL THESE THING that will come to pass, which includes the great tribulation, and stand before the Son of man.
You can hang around for the great tribulation and the wrath of God if you want. I plan to continue watching and being ready for the coming of the Lord, as the Word of God instructs.
The hour of temptation that will come upon the whole world is the great tribulation. The Church is clearly told that we will be KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, and yet you have the Church giving testimony in a synagogue.
There is very little that you say that agrees with the Word of God. And yet you can't see that. You make things up that are contrary to what is written and go about you business like nothing has happened.
Maybe if you changed your views to agree with the Word of God you would gain some understanding.
Jesus is talking about the Jews. How do you not understand this?
The Church will not be on the earth during the great tribulation. The great tribulation is the time of Jacob trouble. The Church will escape all these things including the great tribulation.
Of course it is a physical escape. Escaping all these things and STANDING BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. It is a physical thing.
And yet you have the Church on the earth during the great tribulation AND during the wrath of God. Totally and completely going against the Word of God.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Please. Why would you even say this? Surely, you are aware that the Word rapture come from the Latin word rapio. This is a nonsense argument.
The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain.......just as it is written.
Uh. No. Jesus come for the dead in Christ first. This is the spring barley harvest. The alive remain.
When Jesus returns for the alive that remain, He brings the dead in Christ with Him.
What chapter and verse do you find this???????????????????????????????????????
This is something you have had to make up because what you are saying does not agree with scripture.
Again. If Jesus comes only one time.........immediately after the tribulation.......that means He has to come AFTER the Day of the Lord in your view. Are you unable to see why your view doesn't work?
Are you trying to say that you have finally produced a scripture that you can agree with?
Are you able to understand what is written? Why do most of your beliefs disagree with the written Word of God?
John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Why are MANY raised in Daniel 12 and not ALL raised if Jesus only comes once? Why are you unable to address the questions regarding scripture?
Hmmm, well, just woodenly/literally speaking, I actually have ~ I always do, whether I then agree or not ~ and thus my repeated rebuttals to what you have said. But to what you say here, yeah, right back atcha, Scott.
But now... 'listening'... <chuckles> We can talk about "listening" in two very different senses. In Genesis 3, God does what He does regarding Adam because He listened to his wife Eve and thus did what she wanted him to do rather than what God told him not to do (lest he die in that very day; Genesis 2:17). And in that same sense, right, I have not and will not listen to what you're saying... in the sense of believing it, because, well, it's wrong... <smile> ...because the Holy Spirit has told me otherwise. <smile> The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself, certainly, so that necessarily means that one of us... <chuckles> ...has misheard. <smile>
I agree; it is quite enough. Should be anyway... <chuckles> And I agree... except in the reverse, regarding you and me, yes, he who is wrong, let him be wrong still. Or, in the words of those... "prophets" <chuckles> ...Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel, "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." (The Boxer, 1968).
Scott. Scott, Scott, Scott... <chuckles> You said above (and I quote), "You" (referring to me) "...have cited the origins of the cutting in two, but I have cited the fulfillment by Jesus, involving the born again." There should be no 'but' there, because, on its face, I most certainly agree with you on the fulfillment by Jesus., yes, involving... well, I would say for, or on behalf of... in place of... the born again. Maybe you would agree, but you know, suit yourself... <smile>
However, you said above, "if one wants to hang their hat (their life) on the flesh and physical rather than the spirit within--they are "cut in two" and cut out of the "half"...that might have been." And that statement itself seems misplaced... misapplied... seems to reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of God's covenant with Abram, and maybe even of Jesus Himself, and why you at least seemingly seem to get a lot of things wrong, even down to... yes, what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15:44-53, the nature of the second resurrection of Revelation 20, and what our state will be in eternity, the New Heaven and New Earth.
Yes, Jesus fulfills the... well the Abrahamic covenant... God promised... covenanted... with Abram (and his progeny) that, if He did not uphold His end of the covenant, He would suffer the same fate as the animals (He would die the same death), but also that if Abram (and his progeny through Isaac) did not uphold his/their end of the covenant that He (God, not Abram) would suffer the same fate as the animals (die the same death). Well Abram (and his progeny) failed, of course, and God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ, satisfied Abram's end (our end) of the covenant on our behalf... in our place. And this is how we who are in Christ are redeemed to God. And not subject to the second death of Revelation 20.
But the animals in Genesis 15 were not cut in two in the sense of a "good half" and a "bad half," as you ~ and others; you're certainly not alone ~ seem to be saying. Likewise, Jesus was not "cut in two" in the sense of "Good Jesus" being separated from "Bad Jesus"... <wide eyes> ...and in the second resurrection, whenever you think that occurs, our physical being separated (and destroyed, in the sense of annihilation) from the spiritual. This... among other things, I guess, is what we disagree on. Our physical bodies... along with the rest of creation, will be "made new"... Our redeemed, even now, spirit will be reunited with our then (so not yet) redeemed physical body, and thus we will be completely spiritual... of God, completely, in body and in spirit, conformed to the image of Christ, Who Himself is the very image of God. As Paul says, speaking of our second resurrection, in Romans 6:5, "if we have been united with Him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His."
Again, I'm certainly not assuming... or accusing you of... anything... To frame in that way is ridiculous, but since you say it and mean it in the way you do, you can apply it in the same (really non sequitur) sense to yourself...
Ohhhhh, but you have. You think you know these things; you think you're right. <smile> And, yeah, so do I. We disagree, at least to some extent. And that's okay. What I would say here is what Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4... "the time is coming..." and is now here, of course, "...when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths." You would say that right back at me, I'm sure. Well... fair enough, but... <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
As I was looking back through the last couple of pages in this thread, Scott, I saw one thing you said that I would like to briefly respond to again:
"From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, Who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake He made Him to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:16-21)
A lot of implications, that word 'regard,' but one thing we can be sure is not in view is our physical-ness... <smile> No insinuation is made here that in eternity we will not have our physical body... <smile> ...and really quite the opposite. God originally made us ~ in Adam ~ very good, and we who are in Christ will be made new, along with the rest of creation, and thus very good again... then completely conformed to the image of Christ. In body and spirit.
Grace and peace to you.
The concept of the now-and-not-yet, the simultaneously true now and not yet of the Gospel is not even about "how time actually works." Wow... no, it's about, Scott, what is true... in part now, and without a doubt fully when Jesus returns (and after the final Judgment), which is yet future. And as I said, we can apply that concept to a lot of things, but not to time... <chuckles>... As Paul says of Christians:
"From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, Who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake He made Him to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:16-21)
A lot of implications, that word 'regard,' but one thing we can be sure is not in view is our physical-ness... <smile> No insinuation is made here that in eternity we will not have our physical body... <smile> ...and really quite the opposite. God originally made us ~ in Adam ~ very good, and we who are in Christ will be made new, along with the rest of creation, and thus very good again... then completely conformed to the image of Christ. In body and spirit.
Grace and peace to you.
No, it's just in a very different sense than your (supposed) knowing. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
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Neither Pretrib or Postrib has the church going through the wrath of God. This is a strawman fallacy Pretrib always uses. The church is here for the 6th trump which is the trib/wrath of satan. The 7th trump is when teh wrath of God happens but the church is raptured before that.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Your scripture quote is from the historic time of Christianity on the cusp. Meaning, it was written to both those before and after many great changes...and so it is wrong for you to sight what was true of some then, with what is true of others not--or even others then. Do you not see that Paul's words spoke of what was and will be--not as a permanent or longstanding reality--but as a reality faced by everyone from that point on presented as a choice in their valley of decision?
Jesus saying "today" to the thief on the cross should have clear that all up. You are not reconciling all scripture...but reverting back to the beggarly elements which Paul walked the fence with the Corinthians--that they too would come to that same "today" resolve--instead of making a religion and false doctrine of what they were taught. And 2,000 years later...you still haven't put it together (what Jesus and Paul both taught combined).
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Ah, well at least you're acknowledging my citing of Scripture... <chuckles>
Not even sure this makes any kind of sense... But "changes"... Ah, so what "great changes," Scott? Or even just changes, really. There's nothing new under the sun. Oh my goodness...
That would be 'cite,' not 'sight'... You do have a way with words, Scott... <smile>
Anyway... So you believe what Paul wrote to the church in Corinth not to be applicable to us today? I mean that would explain a lot of what you... "know" (think), for sure...
Absolutely I do. So this is good... Using what you say here, why then can you not see what Paul (and others) describe as true in part then (and) now, and in full later (at the return of Christ)? So then... the now and the not yet?
We agree on the 'today,' for sure, and so it will be for all of us who are in Christ. And that thief will be standing ~ like us who are in Christ now ~ on his own two legs ~ on Jesus's right in the final judgment... <smile> Maybe I'll get to play a few rounds of (fully sanctified and glorified) golf with him afterwards... Probably so, since we'll have eternity to do it... <smile>
I certainly am, even all the way back to Adam and Abraham. And again, we don't completely disagree... but in very, very important ways certainly do.
No, we agree on this, as I just said... And here you seem to actually get, even while refuting, the concept of the now and not yet... Hm.
Paul's letters to the Corinthians was to resolve conflicts within the church at Corinth, which was rife within her.
<eye roll> And never will I "put it altogether" the way you think it should be or is. You know, unless your knowledge actually does increase. <smile>
...in your opinion... and ignorance, and hard-headedness. Oh, I'm sure you will say I'm "badmouthing" you, but it is what it is.
Grace and peace to you.
The Light
Well-Known Member
You can pretend that the following verses are not the wrath of God if you want. I know better as should any believer.
Revelation 8
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Revelation 9
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Revelation 1010 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Revelation 1111 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
I have no idea why you want to pretend that the above verses are not part of the wrath of God.
Let's have a picnic.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Please note: If you continue to mince my every post in mid-sentence pieces...at some point I am just not going to respond anymore.
What changes? Oh, just the advent, crucifixion, and ascension of Christ, His teachings and gospel, Him overcoming the world and being given all power in heaven and earth, the kingdom of God coming upon men, the finish of the House of Israel and the beginning of the Church age and times of the gentiles, God beginning to pour out His spirit at Pentecost, etc., etc. None of which "nothing new under the sun" refers to--boy did you ever miss that one by a mile, or a thousand miles!
And why you turned that all around to make me look foolish or whatever--is really telling--since you didn't even acknowledge all the great number of changes, "which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen."
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
"Now-and-not-yet" is wrong, because back "then" (that former time) when Paul wrote the "now we see dimly" passage, and "now" (this present time) serve different purposes appointed by God. So, you grouping it all together as if that same principle applies both then and now, means you are stuck in that former time and circumstance, and not tracking with God--you've effectively put Him in a box limited by you. Many do the same thing with the early church...as if they were doing everything perfect, while in reality Peter, Paul, and John said otherwise, and Jesus said He was "somewhat against" 5 out of the 7 churches He named in the book of Revelation.
So, yeah, lots of things have changed down through the ages. Even so, nothing has changed regarding each generation and person facing the same choice set before all: "life and death, blessing and cursing."
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, I am not misrepresenting what you are saying. Satan's 'wrath' is what you are pointing to when you quote Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, because that is the doctrine which the Pre-trib Rapture theory holds to on that. But it is NOT Satan's wrath, it is GOD's cup of wrath on the last day of this world poured out upon the wicked on earth. Those in Christ are not appointed to that 'cup' of God's Wrath on the 7th Vial (See Revelation 16).
If you don't really believe Christ was able to protect Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-nego while in the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, then I can understand why you feel you must 'physically' escape the cup of God's Wrath by His consuming fire being poured out upon the wicked on earth on the day of Christ's future coming (See Daniel 3).
Haven't you ever read your Old Testament Scriptures when fifty soldiers were sent to capture God's prophet Elijah, and Elijah prayed that God would bring His fire down upon them, and He did, and all fifty were burned up right there in front of Elijah? (See 2 Kings 1) And haven't you read in 1 Kings 18 how God brought His consuming fire down upon the altar of sacrifice and it sucked up all the water on the wood and in the trench that Elijah had spread upon it to show the Baal prophets Who The GOD really is?
God's consuming fire is that accurate. It will not harm His servants in Christ Jesus. And that event will happen upon the earth while those still alive in Christ are still here on earth but it changes them to their "spiritual body" by which they will be "caught up" to Jesus on His descent to the Mount of Olives.
That is why it would seem, that the majority who get suckered into men's false pre-trib rapture theory, actually do not understand God's Word regarding that other realm of Spirit and our makeup of a 'spirit' with 'soul' which is of that other realm of Spirit. Seeing only physical escape is an attribute of thinking with one's flesh only, and not understanding about our other body (spiritual body) that God also created us with (See 2 Corinthians 5).
Davy
Well-Known Member
Uh, you're thinking with your flesh again. What did Peter show will happen on that "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night"? Peter showed that's when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth (See also Hebrews 12:25-29).
So again, you don't believe Jesus was able to protect Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-nego in the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, per Daniel 3? God's consuming fire will not harm us.
And the battle of Armageddon will not be a battle like you are thinking with your flesh. It will involve God's consuming fire coming upon that great army out of the northern quarters upon Jerusalem, and they will be destroyed at an instant (except for the leftovers of Zechariah 14:26-20). God's people do not fight it. Christ with His army descending from Heaven will fight it. And God's cup of Wrath is poured out in conjunction with Christ's coming with His army. That is when ALL... even the wicked still alive on earth, will experience Paul's change to the "spiritual body" on the "last trump". ALL... peoples and nations will have their flesh bodies cast off, and their spirit body revealed, which is the body type of the world to come. And this is one of the ways GOD is going to show the whole world Who He is, that He is GOD (See Ezekiel 39 which has not happened yet).
But the 7th Vial is different, and is called, "... the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath." (Rev.16:19). Or didn't you notice that the events happening on the previous 6 Vials involve the beast still in power over the earth? The 7th Vial cup of God's Wrath ends that with Christ's future coming "as a thief".
So, did you not grasp also that when Lord Jesus said just before that 7th Vial, that He comes "as a thief", that means He was applying His future coming to the timing of the "day of the Lord" which Paul and Peter said will come "as a thief in the night"? Peter showed in 2 Peter 3 that is when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth. Satan's beast kingdom won't survive that. 7th Vial cup of God's Wrath. And all those is pointing to... what timing? The LAST DAY of this present world. That is when Jesus' only future one more time of coming to gather His Church will be.
That idea is not written. Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 5, pulling from the Old Testament prophets, that it will happen at a instant, suddenly. That is why Lord Jesus used the idea of it coming upon the world "as a thief" breaking in at night. Even in the Book of Isaiah, God gives comparisons to it being like starving men dreaming of a plush banquet and suddenly waking up finding themselves still starving. It is what Paul meant when he said it will come like the "twinkling of an eye" on the "last trump" per 1 Cor.15.
The 7th Seal is a 'selah' (a pause, like in the Psalms). That is why there is half-an hour of silence accompanied with it.
Notice on the 6th Seal all islands are moved out of their place. Notice on the 7th Vial also all islands are moved out of their place. And Paul and Peter gave the timing of the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" as the 7th Vial timing when God's cup of wrath is poured out, and His consuming fire burns man's works off the surface of this earth.
Thus the 7th Seal, 7th Vial, and 7th Trumpet are all timed together at the same time. Not all events John was given to write down happen in exact chronological order, otherwise the above would not be written as it is. That's why it's important to concentrate on learning the 'events' written, and not fall into a trap of numbers in sequential order.
Also occurs with the 7th Vial of Revelation 16.
I won't respond to the rest of your post, because you turn to personal insulting.
The Light
Well-Known Member
I just told you that I understand that 1 Thes 5 is talking about the wrath of God and not Satan.
I don't care what pre trib says.
Does pretrib understand there are two raptures. No.
Making an argument against me about things I don't believe, nor claim is nonsense.
Where have I said that I don't believe Christ was able to protect shadrach meshach and abednego. Try addressing the facts and skip the strawman.
Here's the FACTS. Christ says that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS listed in Luke 21 which includes the great tribulation and stand before the Son of man.
Do you believe this or not?
What's with the sideshow? As usual you can't address the questions and try to change the subject.
You are just making this up. There is no scripture that says this.
How can the Lord once..........immediately after the tribulation. Wouldn't He have to come before the tribulation was over?
I don't expect a response because what you claim makes no sense and you have no scripture to support your claims.
Not able to address any of my points as usual.
The reason that you can't address my points is because the Word of God doesn't say what you claim.
Once there is understanding that there are two raptures, all your claims against Christ coming in an hour that you think not go up in smoke.
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