Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[sondring7]

No. 1 Thes 4 is talking about the rapture of the Church. The rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened, before the great tribulation. The Lord Himself comes for His bride.

After the great tribulation God turns His attention to Israel. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits from 12 tribes as the Jews will be the second harvest of the fig tree. Immediately after the great tribulation the Lord will come for the 12 tribes across the earth who are the seed of the woman Israel. They will be raptured at the 6th seal. This is the second coming. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. Those raptured go to heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb and are the great multitude.

Then the 7th seal is opened and it is the day of vengeance which is the ONE YEAR wrath of God. At the end wrath, 7th trumpet / 7th vial, the Lord returns for the Day of the Lord with the armies of heaven for Armageddon. After that He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives which is the second advent.

Then it is the time of judgement.

++++No. 1 Thes 4 is talking about the rapture of the Church. The rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened, before the great tribulation.

That's the way I see it too Light

 

[The Light]

No, not what that Scripture shows. Look at what Revelation 11:18 shows once the 7th Trumpet sounds and all the nations of this world become those of The Father and The Son.

When the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means Armageddon is over. After that Christ sets His feet on the Mount of Olives...the second advent.

Those 7 trumpets and 7 vials are the wrath of God. The Church is not appointed to wrath and yet you have the Church on the earth when the wrath of God occurs. Was Noah left on the earth when the flood came which was Gods wrath. Was Lot left in Sodom when the wrath of God came...........NO. Why would you think that God would change His character and pattern and leave the Church on the earth while His wrath is going on?

The Church won't even be here for the great tribulation, let alone the wrath of God. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. It is the Jews that will be hunted and killed by the dragon, not the Church. The Jews, the twelve tribes across the earth will have their blindness removed. When the dragon can't get to the woman, Israel, because she has fled to a place of protection, he goes after her seed. These are 12 tribes across the earth.

The 12 tribes across the earth will be raptured at the 6th seal at the second coming. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and are part of the great multitude that are seen in heaven in Rev 7 and 19. They are not appointed to wrath either.

It is only then that the 'rewards' are handed out to His Church.

Here is the Church in heaven.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Here are 24 elders with reward crowns which prove that Jesus has come and His reward was with Him.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

No, the "great tribulation" will be upon ALL... nations, specifically the "very elect" of Christ's Church, i.e., those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. That is what the Revelation 13:4-8 and Revelation 17:8 reveals. Everyone else in the WHOLE WORLD will be deceived by the false-Messiah which comes first.

I'm not sure how you are missing this Davy.

The Church is keeping the word of His patience. We will be kept from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world. God keeps His Word. Why don't you see this scripture?

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We will also escape ALL THESE THINGS and stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Nope, the symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27 has not started yet today. It is represented a a 7 year period, two 1260 day halves.

This is true..........and yet there only remains 3.5 years in the 70th week of Daniel.

And scripture confirms.

Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Only the latter half of 1260 days represents the time of "great tribulation". The "abomination of desolation" idol is placed in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem at the mid point of that 7 years, and that is what will kick off the "great tribulation" of the latter 1260 day period.

The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. The Church is already gone. Those of the 12 tribes whose eyes are opened to the Messiah will be raptured immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal. Then the 7th is opened and the wrath of God begins which are the 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

Nope again. Per Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4, Lord Jesus gathers His resurrected saints from heaven on the last day, and they descend to earth with Him, with the saints still alive "caught up" to Jesus and the resurrected Church, and ALL... go with Jesus to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem,

No Davy. In I Thessalonians 4 the Church is gathered from the earth and are taken to heaven. This happens before the seals are opened. Once the Church is in heaven, the earth is in chaos. The 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse ride. Then the great tribulation which is when the dragon hunts down the seed of the woman, Israel, the 12 tribes across the earth. They will keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. These are the second harvest of the fig tree and will be raptured on the last day of the age which is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

We see this event spoken of in Daniel 12. We see war in heaven. We see the great tribulation, and we see that MANY are raised. Not all are raised............MANY.

Daniel 12
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

ON EARTH. They do NOT go to Heaven. And that resurrection will only happen on the LAST DAY of this world, like Jesus showed in John 6.

I don't have time to spend all day to show what God's written Word actually says.

And you can try... to put your own words in my mouth, but it will only show dishonesty.

There are many, many things that you do not understand. The end of the age does not occur at the 7th trumpet. It occurs at the second coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God occurs. It is the day of vengeance which lasts ONE YEAR, according to the Word of God.

After Armageddon Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives. The comes the judgement.

Who is judged?. It's not the Church. The Church is already in heaven and the 24 elders with crowns prove that Jesus has come and His reward was with Him.

It's not the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth. They are already in heaven as the ones that come out of the great tribulation and the ones that are raised up on the last day.

So who is judged at the time of judgement after Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives?

 

[Davy]

When the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means Armageddon is over. After that Christ sets His feet on the Mount of Olives...the second advent.

No, Christ's coming happens WHEN He comes to take over all the kingdoms of this world. That is 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial timing. The battle of Armageddon is fought by Christ and His armies coming from Heaven on the day of His future coming, the ONLY coming left written of in God's Word (See Zech.9:9-10; only TWO advents by Christ Jesus are written). That is the same day of His coming to gather His faithful Church.

Those 7 trumpets and 7 vials are the wrath of God.

Nope.
There's a difference between the 'wrath' of the 1-6 Vials and the final 7th Vial. The final 7th Vial is the 'cup' of God's Wrath on the day of Christ's coming to end this present world and takeover all kingdoms on earth. It is that particular 'cup' of God's Wrath on the 7th Vial that Apostle Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that Christ's Church is not appointed to.

That is why Paul was also talking about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" in that 1 Thessalonians 5 Chapter. That means the LAST DAY of this present world. And that is the day when that "sudden destruction" will happen upon the wicked like Paul also revealed accompanies the coming of that "day of the Lord."

The Church won't even be here for the great tribulation, let alone the wrath of God. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. It is the Jews that will be hunted and killed by the dragon, not the Church. The Jews, the twelve tribes across the earth will have their blindness removed. When the dragon can't get to the woman, Israel, because she has fled to a place of protection, he goes after her seed. These are 12 tribes across the earth.

The 12 tribes across the earth will be raptured at the 6th seal at the second coming. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and are part of the great multitude that are seen in heaven in Rev 7 and 19. They are not appointed to wrath either.

I won't waste my time responding to the above, because that is NOT what is written in God's Word in Rev.7 nor Rev.19. That instead is ADDING men's doctrine to God's written Word.

Here is the Church in heaven.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

You show lack of reading comprehension, because the above Scripture about "hast made us unto our God kings and priests:..." is FUTURE TENSE FOR AFTER CHRIST'S FUTURE RETURN AND TAKEOVER OF ALL KINGDOMS ON THIS EARTH. The 7th Vial and 7th Trumpet will have happened when the above is fulfilled. Thus it is gross error to try and apply that to a pre-trib rapture.

Here are 24 elders with reward crowns which prove that Jesus has come and His reward was with Him.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Like I pointed out to you per Revelation 11:18, Christ's rewards (like the crowns), are not handed out to the saints until AFTER Jesus future coming on the 7th Trumpet (i.e., Paul's "last trump" of 1 Cor.15). You are ADDING to the Scripture.

The Church is keeping the word of His patience. We will be kept from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world. God keeps His Word. Why don't you see this scripture?

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We will also escape ALL THESE THINGS and stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You do not understand what that "hour of temptation" is about. Man's false pre-trib rapture theory does not prepare you for it.

Since Lord Jesus showed in Mark 13 that some in His Church will be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan in order to give a TESTIMONY for Jesus against the beast, that reveals the "hour of temptation" must involve a major event of DECEPTION. And that is what Christ's elect escape during the coming tribulation going through it and giving that WITNESS for Jesus by The Holy Spirit.

Likewise, like Jesus forewarned in Matthew 24:23-26 about the coming of a pseudo-Christ that will have power of GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS, that IF... it were possible, would deceive even His "very elect", that also reveals Christ's elect Church WILL BE HERE THROUGH THE COMING "great tribulation".

Thus the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture teaches USING THEIR FLESH that "hour of temptation" is about PHYSICAL ESCAPE.

But it is NOT ABOUT PHYSICAL ESCAPE. It is about ESCAPE FROM SPIRITUAL DECEPTION IN THAT HOUR. That is why that "hour" is also used as a symbol for the "great tribulation" time when all ten virgins fall asleep waiting on The Bridegroom. It represents the 11th hour in that parable, as it shows the Bridegroom (Jesus) coming at Midnight. (See also Matthew 20:6-16; Matthew 26:40-41; Mark 13:11.)

No Davy. In I Thessalonians 4 the Church is gathered from the earth and are taken to heaven.

The 1 Thessalonians 4:17 verse is about your so-called 'rapture' idea, which the word rapture is not written in God's Word. It instead is the Greek word harpazo translated to "caught up" in the KJV. That 17th verse ONLY is about the saints still alive on earth being "caught up" to Jesus at His coming.

The previous 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 verses are about Jesus' gathering of the asleep saints that had already died, and are already there with Him. Paul said Jesus will bring those with Him when He descends to earth, and that they must first be resurrected.

Thus what Apostle Paul actually taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:
1. Jesus gathers TWO SEPARATE GROUPS of His saints on the day of His future coming.
2. Jesus gathers first the RESURRECTED SAINTS, FROM HEAVEN, AND BRINGS THEM WITH HIM ON HIS DESCENT TO EARTH.
3. Then, Jesus gathers the saints still alive on earth, as they will be "caught up" to Him ON HIS DESCENT TO THIS EARTH.
4. Then per the Zechariah 14 Scripture on that day, Jesus' feet touch down upon the MOUNT OF OLIVES ON EARTH, bringing all... His faithful saints with Him there, TO EARTH, and takes over all kingdoms of this world and begins His promised reign with a "rod of iron."

There is NO SCRIPTURE WRITTEN THAT SAYS JESUS COMES TO GATHER HIS CHURCH AND THEN GOES BACK INTO HEAVEN.

 

[The Light]

The false Pre-trib Rapture school loves to take Bible Scripture and twist it to fit their pet doctrine. What you did above shows that, as the 6th Seal Scripture and the 1 Thessalonians 5 Scripture are covering different aspects of Christ's future 2nd and only coming.

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 is where The Light is pulling from with that idea that the Church is not appointed to wrath. The problem with the Pre-trib Rapture theory, it does not properly know just WHICH WRATH Paul was speaking about.

For example -- Pre-trib wrongly teaches the "wrath" of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is about Satan's wrath during the "great tribulation". It is NOT... about Satan's wrath.

This is totally incorrect and a misrepresentation of what I am saying. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is GODS WRATH. We are not appointed to GODS WRATH. And yet you have the Church on earth during the wrath of God.

The "wrath" Apostle Paul was pointing to is about GOD's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on the last day of this world, on the "last trump" and "7th Vial". That is the specific 'wrath' we in Christ are not appointed to. HOW do I know for sure Paul was pointing to GOD's cup of wrath there in verse 9?

As I said. Your argument is nonsense because I am fully aware that it is GODS WRATH that is being discussed in 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

Now explain why your view has the Church on the earth during the wrath of God. Your view doesn't work.

It is because at the first of the 1 Thessalonians 5 Chapter, Paul is talking about events to occur on the "day of The LORD", which is the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church. Leading up to that day, Paul shows the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety". Then Paul shows when they start believing that, then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. WHERE did Paul get that idea from?

You are missing the part where Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days which is the great tribulation and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth..........AT THE 6TH SEAL.

You claims are totally and completely unscriptural. You have the Church on the earth during the wrath God when the Word clearly says that we are not appointed to wrath.

By the way, Pre trib has so called tribulation saints on the earth during the wrath of God. They fail to understand that there are two raptures and it is the Jews that go through the great tribulation. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. And it is Jews that are raptured at the 6th seal, because BELIEVERS ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH......which is the 7th seal.

Paul got that "sudden destruction" idea on the LAST DAY, the "day of The LORD", from the Old Testament prophets. That is how we KNOW Paul was pointing to GOD's cup of wrath poured out on the "7th Vial" upon the wicked. And we, Christ's Church, are not appointed to that.

The last day of the age that is spoken of in Matthew 24 is coming of Jesus AT THE 6TH SEAL. It is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. These TWO FOLDS are joined into ONE FOLD which is the great multitude seen in Rev 7 and Rev 19.

Gods people are not appointed to wrath and yet you have the Church ON THE EARTH going through God's wrath in your incorrect interpretation of the Word of God.

 

[The Light]

No, Christ's coming happens WHEN He comes to take over all the kingdoms of this world. That is 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial timing. The battle of Armageddon is fought by Christ and His armies coming from Heaven on the day of His future coming, the ONLY coming left written of in God's Word (See Zech.9:9-10; only TWO advents by Christ Jesus are written). That is the same day of His coming to gather His faithful Church.

Just one question.

If what you are saying is true, why is Christ coming immediately AFTER the tribulation for Armageddon. If He only comes one time that would be impossible.

Nope.
There's a difference between the 'wrath' of the 1-6 Vials and the final 7th Vial. The final 7th Vial is the 'cup' of God's Wrath on the day of Christ's coming to end this present world and takeover all kingdoms on earth. It is that particular 'cup' of God's Wrath on the 7th Vial that Apostle Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that Christ's Church is not appointed to.

Negative. All the trumpets and vials are Gods wrath. And yes, the Day of the Lord occurs at the 7th trumpet / 7th vial.

God wrath is the day of vengeance and it lasts for ONE YEAR.

That is why Paul was also talking about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" in that 1 Thessalonians 5 Chapter. That means the LAST DAY of this present world. And that is the day when that "sudden destruction" will happen upon the wicked like Paul also revealed accompanies the coming of that "day of the Lord."

The end of the age is the second coming and that occurs at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God lasts ONE YEAR before Jesus returns for Armageddon.

The Day of the Lord is the day of sudden destruction and it occurs at the 7th trumpet.

I won't waste my time responding to the above, because that is NOT what is written in God's Word in Rev.7 nor Rev.19. That instead is ADDING men's doctrine to God's written Word.

You can't respond because you lack understanding. Why do you have the Church on the earth during the wrath of God. God CLEARLY tells us that believers are not appointed to wrath.

You say the Church is raptured from the earth just prior to the Day of the Lord, BUT AS WE KNOW, there is no scripture to support this line of thought. You add to scripture.

Please provide a scripture that show a rapture just before the 7th trumpet. You can't.

You show lack of reading comprehension, because the above Scripture about "hast made us unto our God kings and priests:..." is FUTURE TENSE FOR AFTER CHRIST'S FUTURE RETURN AND TAKEOVER OF ALL KINGDOMS ON THIS EARTH. The 7th Vial and 7th Trumpet will have happened when the above is fulfilled. Thus it is gross error to try and apply that to a pre-trib rapture.

Please. Future tense???????? Please. It's present tense in the vision and the kings and priests are in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened in the vision.

Why does every single argument you have go against the scripture? The Church will be kings and priests before the seals are opened and the 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Cut and dried, FACT. The Church will be in heaven before the great tribulation.

Cut and dried, FACT. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble and it is for the Jews.

Cut and dried, FACT. Part of Israel will have its eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Cut and dried, FACT. Believers are not appointed to wrath and yet you have the Church on the earth during the wrath of God.

Like I pointed out to you per Revelation 11:18, Christ's rewards (like the crowns), are not handed out to the saints until AFTER Jesus future coming on the 7th Trumpet (i.e., Paul's "last trump" of 1 Cor.15). You are ADDING to the Scripture.

What have I added? You're the one adding to scripture. You add FUTURE TENSE to the kings and priests in Rev 5 when it is present tense in the vision and in the vision, the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened and the 5th seal is the great tribulation.

You have to continually go against the facts of scripture and deny what is written to get you views work. I don't have to deny or change anything because what is written is what I believe.

You do not understand what that "hour of temptation" is about. Man's false pre-trib rapture theory does not prepare you for it.

Again. You have to deny what is written. The Lord says, He will keep the Church from the hour of temptation that will come upon the whole world. He also says that we can escape ALL THESE THING that will come to pass, which includes the great tribulation, and stand before the Son of man.

You can hang around for the great tribulation and the wrath of God if you want. I plan to continue watching and being ready for the coming of the Lord, as the Word of God instructs.

Since Lord Jesus showed in Mark 13 that some in His Church will be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan in order to give a TESTIMONY for Jesus against the beast, that reveals the "hour of temptation" must involve a major event of DECEPTION. And that is what Christ's elect escape during the coming tribulation going through it and giving that WITNESS for Jesus by The Holy Spirit.

The hour of temptation that will come upon the whole world is the great tribulation. The Church is clearly told that we will be KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, and yet you have the Church giving testimony in a synagogue.

There is very little that you say that agrees with the Word of God. And yet you can't see that. You make things up that are contrary to what is written and go about you business like nothing has happened.

Maybe if you changed your views to agree with the Word of God you would gain some understanding.

Likewise, like Jesus forewarned in Matthew 24:23-26 about the coming of a pseudo-Christ that will have power of GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS, that IF... it were possible, would deceive even His "very elect", that also reveals Christ's elect Church WILL BE HERE THROUGH THE COMING "great tribulation".

Jesus is talking about the Jews. How do you not understand this?

The Church will not be on the earth during the great tribulation. The great tribulation is the time of Jacob trouble. The Church will escape all these things including the great tribulation.

Thus the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture teaches USING THEIR FLESH that "hour of temptation" is about PHYSICAL ESCAPE. But it is NOT ABOUT PHYSICAL ESCAPE. It is about ESCAPE FROM SPIRITUAL DECEPTION IN THAT HOUR. That is why that "hour" is also used as a symbol for the "great tribulation" time when all ten virgins fall asleep waiting on The Bridegroom. It represents the 11th hour in that parable, as it shows the Bridegroom (Jesus) coming at Midnight. (See also Matthew 20:6-16; Matthew 26:40-41; Mark 13:11.)

Of course it is a physical escape. Escaping all these things and STANDING BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. It is a physical thing.

And yet you have the Church on the earth during the great tribulation AND during the wrath of God. Totally and completely going against the Word of God.

 

[The Light]

The 1 Thessalonians 4:17 verse is about your so-called 'rapture' idea, which the word rapture is not written in God's Word. It instead is the Greek word harpazo translated to "caught up" in the KJV. That 17th verse ONLY is about the saints still alive on earth being "caught up" to Jesus at His coming.

Please. Why would you even say this? Surely, you are aware that the Word rapture come from the Latin word rapio. This is a nonsense argument.

The previous 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 verses are about Jesus' gathering of the asleep saints that had already died, and are already there with Him. Paul said Jesus will bring those with Him when He descends to earth, and that they must first be resurrected.

The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain.......just as it is written.

Thus what Apostle Paul actually taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:
1. Jesus gathers TWO SEPARATE GROUPS of His saints on the day of His future coming.
2. Jesus gathers first the RESURRECTED SAINTS, FROM HEAVEN, AND BRINGS THEM WITH HIM ON HIS DESCENT TO EARTH.

Uh. No. Jesus come for the dead in Christ first. This is the spring barley harvest. The alive remain.
When Jesus returns for the alive that remain, He brings the dead in Christ with Him.

3. Then, Jesus gathers the saints still alive on earth, as they will be "caught up" to Him ON HIS DESCENT TO THIS EARTH.

What chapter and verse do you find this???????????????????????????????????????

This is something you have had to make up because what you are saying does not agree with scripture.

Again. If Jesus comes only one time.........immediately after the tribulation.......that means He has to come AFTER the Day of the Lord in your view. Are you unable to see why your view doesn't work?

4. Then per the Zechariah 14 Scripture on that day, Jesus' feet touch down upon the MOUNT OF OLIVES ON EARTH, bringing all... His faithful saints with Him there, TO EARTH, and takes over all kingdoms of this world and begins His promised reign with a "rod of iron."

Are you trying to say that you have finally produced a scripture that you can agree with?

There is NO SCRIPTURE WRITTEN THAT SAYS JESUS COMES TO GATHER HIS CHURCH AND THEN GOES BACK INTO HEAVEN.

Are you able to understand what is written? Why do most of your beliefs disagree with the written Word of God?

John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Why are MANY raised in Daniel 12 and not ALL raised if Jesus only comes once? Why are you unable to address the questions regarding scripture?

 

[PinSeeker]

You have not been listening for some time now...

Hmmm, well, just woodenly/literally speaking, I actually have ~ I always do, whether I then agree or not ~ and thus my repeated rebuttals to what you have said. But to what you say here, yeah, right back atcha, Scott.

But now... 'listening'... <chuckles> We can talk about "listening" in two very different senses. In Genesis 3, God does what He does regarding Adam because He listened to his wife Eve and thus did what she wanted him to do rather than what God told him not to do (lest he die in that very day; Genesis 2:17). And in that same sense, right, I have not and will not listen to what you're saying... in the sense of believing it, because, well, it's wrong... <smile> ...because the Holy Spirit has told me otherwise. <smile> The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself, certainly, so that necessarily means that one of us... <chuckles> ...has misheard. <smile>

...so that's enough ("He who is wrong, let him be wrong still").

I agree; it is quite enough. Should be anyway... <chuckles> And I agree... except in the reverse, regarding you and me, yes, he who is wrong, let him be wrong still. Or, in the words of those... "prophets" <chuckles> ...Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel, "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." (The Boxer, 1968).

You obviously do not know how Jesus fulfills the "cut him in two" prophecy...even though I told you how.

Scott. Scott, Scott, Scott... <chuckles> You said above (and I quote), "You" (referring to me) "...have cited the origins of the cutting in two, but I have cited the fulfillment by Jesus, involving the born again." There should be no 'but' there, because, on its face, I most certainly agree with you on the fulfillment by Jesus., yes, involving... well, I would say for, or on behalf of... in place of... the born again. Maybe you would agree, but you know, suit yourself... <smile>

However, you said above, "if one wants to hang their hat (their life) on the flesh and physical rather than the spirit within--they are "cut in two" and cut out of the "half"...that might have been." And that statement itself seems misplaced... misapplied... seems to reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of God's covenant with Abram, and maybe even of Jesus Himself, and why you at least seemingly seem to get a lot of things wrong, even down to... yes, what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15:44-53, the nature of the second resurrection of Revelation 20, and what our state will be in eternity, the New Heaven and New Earth.

Yes, Jesus fulfills the... well the Abrahamic covenant... God promised... covenanted... with Abram (and his progeny) that, if He did not uphold His end of the covenant, He would suffer the same fate as the animals (He would die the same death), but also that if Abram (and his progeny through Isaac) did not uphold his/their end of the covenant that He (God, not Abram) would suffer the same fate as the animals (die the same death). Well Abram (and his progeny) failed, of course, and God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ, satisfied Abram's end (our end) of the covenant on our behalf... in our place. And this is how we who are in Christ are redeemed to God. And not subject to the second death of Revelation 20.

But the animals in Genesis 15 were not cut in two in the sense of a "good half" and a "bad half," as you ~ and others; you're certainly not alone ~ seem to be saying. Likewise, Jesus was not "cut in two" in the sense of "Good Jesus" being separated from "Bad Jesus"... <wide eyes> ...and in the second resurrection, whenever you think that occurs, our physical being separated (and destroyed, in the sense of annihilation) from the spiritual. This... among other things, I guess, is what we disagree on. Our physical bodies... along with the rest of creation, will be "made new"... Our redeemed, even now, spirit will be reunited with our then (so not yet) redeemed physical body, and thus we will be completely spiritual... of God, completely, in body and in spirit, conformed to the image of Christ, Who Himself is the very image of God. As Paul says, speaking of our second resurrection, in Romans 6:5, "if we have been united with Him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His."

As for what I "think"--you wrongly assume and accuse...

Again, I'm certainly not assuming... or accusing you of... anything... To frame in that way is ridiculous, but since you say it and mean it in the way you do, you can apply it in the same (really non sequitur) sense to yourself...

...I have said nothing of what I think.

Ohhhhh, but you have. You think you know these things; you think you're right. <smile> And, yeah, so do I. We disagree, at least to some extent. And that's okay. What I would say here is what Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4... "the time is coming..." and is now here, of course, "...when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths." You would say that right back at me, I'm sure. Well... fair enough, but... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ScottA]

Ohhhhh, but you have. You think you know these things; you think you're right.

That is a lie.

 

[PinSeeker]

As I was looking back through the last couple of pages in this thread, Scott, I saw one thing you said that I would like to briefly respond to again:

That "now-and-not-yet" explanation is a completely inaccurate misunderstanding of how time actually works.

The concept of the now-and-not-yet, the simultaneously true now and not yet of the Gospel is not even about "how time actually works." Wow... no, it's about, Scott, what is true... in part now, and without a doubt fully when Jesus returns (and after the final Judgment), which is yet future. And as I said, we can apply that concept to a lot of things, but not to time... <chuckles>... As Paul says of Christians:

"From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, Who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake He made Him to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:16-21)

A lot of implications, that word 'regard,' but one thing we can be sure is not in view is our physical-ness... <smile> No insinuation is made here that in eternity we will not have our physical body... <smile> ...and really quite the opposite. God originally made us ~ in Adam ~ very good, and we who are in Christ will be made new, along with the rest of creation, and thus very good again... then completely conformed to the image of Christ. In body and spirit.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

That is a lie.

No, it's just in a very different sense than your (supposed) knowing. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

Gods people are not appointed to wrath and yet you have the Church ON THE EARTH going through God's wrath in your incorrect interpretation of the Word of God.

Neither Pretrib or Postrib has the church going through the wrath of God. This is a strawman fallacy Pretrib always uses. The church is here for the 6th trump which is the trib/wrath of satan. The 7th trump is when teh wrath of God happens but the church is raptured before that.

 

[ScottA]

As I was looking back through the last couple of pages in this thread, Scott, I saw one thing you said that I would like to briefly respond to again:


The concept of the now-and-not-yet, the simultaneously true now and not yet of the Gospel is not even about "how time actually works." Wow... no, it's about, Scott, what is true... in part now, and without a doubt fully when Jesus returns (and after the final Judgment), which is yet future. And as I said, we can apply that concept to a lot of things, but not to time... <chuckles>... As Paul says of Christians:

"From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, Who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake He made Him to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:16-21)

A lot of implications, that word 'regard,' but one thing we can be sure is not in view is our physical-ness... <smile> No insinuation is made here that in eternity we will not have our physical body... <smile> ...and really quite the opposite. God originally made us ~ in Adam ~ very good, and we who are in Christ will be made new, along with the rest of creation, and thus very good again... then completely conformed to the image of Christ. In body and spirit.

Grace and peace to you.

Your scripture quote is from the historic time of Christianity on the cusp. Meaning, it was written to both those before and after many great changes...and so it is wrong for you to sight what was true of some then, with what is true of others not--or even others then. Do you not see that Paul's words spoke of what was and will be--not as a permanent or longstanding reality--but as a reality faced by everyone from that point on presented as a choice in their valley of decision?

Jesus saying "today" to the thief on the cross should have clear that all up. You are not reconciling all scripture...but reverting back to the beggarly elements which Paul walked the fence with the Corinthians--that they too would come to that same "today" resolve--instead of making a religion and false doctrine of what they were taught. And 2,000 years later...you still haven't put it together (what Jesus and Paul both taught combined).

 

[ScottA]

No, it's just in a very different sense than your (supposed) knowing. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Which makes your "different sense", nonsense. Before God.

 

[PinSeeker]

Your scripture quote...

Ah, well at least you're acknowledging my citing of Scripture... <chuckles>

is from the historic time of Christianity on the cusp. Meaning, it was written to both those before and after many great changes...

Not even sure this makes any kind of sense... But "changes"... Ah, so what "great changes," Scott? Or even just changes, really. There's nothing new under the sun. Oh my goodness...

and so it is wrong for you to sight what was true of some then, with what is true of others not--or even others then.

That would be 'cite,' not 'sight'... You do have a way with words, Scott... <smile>

Anyway... So you believe what Paul wrote to the church in Corinth not to be applicable to us today? I mean that would explain a lot of what you... "know" (think), for sure...

Do you not see that Paul's words spoke of what was and will be--not as a permanent or longstanding reality--but as a reality faced by everyone from that point on presented as a choice in their valley of decision?

Absolutely I do. So this is good... Using what you say here, why then can you not see what Paul (and others) describe as true in part then (and) now, and in full later (at the return of Christ)? So then... the now and the not yet?

Jesus saying "today" to the thief on the cross should have clear that all up.

We agree on the 'today,' for sure, and so it will be for all of us who are in Christ. And that thief will be standing ~ like us who are in Christ now ~ on his own two legs ~ on Jesus's right in the final judgment... <smile> Maybe I'll get to play a few rounds of (fully sanctified and glorified) golf with him afterwards... Probably so, since we'll have eternity to do it... <smile>

You are not reconciling all scripture...

I certainly am, even all the way back to Adam and Abraham. And again, we don't completely disagree... but in very, very important ways certainly do.

...reverting back to the beggarly elements which Paul walked the fence with the Corinthians--that they too would come to that same "today" resolve--

No, we agree on this, as I just said... And here you seem to actually get, even while refuting, the concept of the now and not yet... Hm.

...instead of making a religion and false doctrine of what they were taught.

Paul's letters to the Corinthians was to resolve conflicts within the church at Corinth, which was rife within her.

And 2,000 years later...you still haven't put it together (what Jesus and Paul both taught combined).

<eye roll> And never will I "put it altogether" the way you think it should be or is. You know, unless your knowledge actually does increase. <smile>

Which makes your "different sense", nonsense. Before God.

...in your opinion... and ignorance, and hard-headedness. Oh, I'm sure you will say I'm "badmouthing" you, but it is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.