Loss = vessels of shame. Outer darkness. Saved yet examples of dishonour.
Who are the Saved?
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Where is Outer darkness?
Maybe Rev 22:15 describes it ?
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Those people outside the city of light (in darkness) might see the city of light from a distance Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth realizing what they have missed.
It seems the most informative way that a person is saved by the words of Christ, as written in
Scripture, is, to work out our Salvation in fear and trembling, to attain the inward changes
Christ demands, while without following a
List a instructions to study, since it cannot
Be something in which needs to be recognized as how to gain with our minds, rather, in penance so that our new life is only lived in
The spirit of truth, so the question ppl commonly ask, of, “ are we saved”, or how can we know, the answer is, At Judgement, and
Not before, so when you hear ppl say “ we are saved”, you know they can only have judged
Themselves, and they want to believe their
Own assessment.
To that Jesus says, “ to the humble I will
Give Grace”, but to the Proud, “ I Despise”.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
No, you have effectively closed the door at Christ's knocking ("Behold I stand at the door and knock..."). Which speaks of those born again of the spirit of God, the first resurrection, in whom it is no longer they/we who live but Christ.
All who are actually born again of the spirit of God, know immediately that they have been changed and saved.
I watched the video just now. I can't wait to chat with my husband about the distinction you pointed out between righteous and Saints.
When I first got saved, all I wanted was to do good to others. Worldiness dampened this in me as well as very many lukewarm "Christian sayings".
Oh, why did I not keep my initial zeal for the Lord? I would have arrived to where Im at now sooner.
But in earnestly pursuing the obedience and fear of God and putting off sin, my husband and I have been greatly blessed.
There's so many "Christian sayings" that are myths but they can greatly diminish the purity of your walk.
When I first got saved, all I wanted was to do good to others. Worldiness dampened this in me as well as very many lukewarm "Christian sayings".
Oh, why did I not keep my initial zeal for the Lord? I would have arrived to where Im at now sooner.
But in earnestly pursuing the obedience and fear of God and putting off sin, my husband and I have been greatly blessed.
There's so many "Christian sayings" that are myths but they can greatly diminish the purity of your walk.
This is so true. I think the pearl of great price is not so much something so large and seemingly costly....but small we overlook UNTIL we see its value. It takes time to put the same value on something that God does.
The Once Saved Always Saved falsehood and its surrounding doctrine were especially harmful to me in my walk before. Whenever I felt guilty about the sins mopping the floor up with me, the advice was, "Just rest in the finished work of the cross." Aka, you're Saved, so dont worry about it.
I continued to be in a cycle of guilt, "rest, sin, guilt for years. Thankfully I started reading Scripture for myself.
I just knew Id find a lot of verses about resting in that finished work on the cross and never being able to lose salvation ...
I was so wrong.
Instead I felt so upset at all the pastors and speakers who never taught me that God expects obedience, righteousness, and to go on to perfection. I could have been purifying myself this whole time not "resting".
Have I experienced a supernatural period of time where Im sinless? No. But I look for the way out of temptation that Scripture promises. I transform my mind with the Word. I make no provision for the flesh.
Im walking so much better since I rejected mainstream teachings on grace and what Jesus came to do.
Jesus died to get rid of sin in us, not just to be good so we don't have to be.
Yeah, if you turn sin into some kind of default state and move the goalpost, it seems like its impossible to stop sinning. But the Bible is right. Its possible to be righteous in Christ. Its victory over being a slave to sin and being a slave to righteousness. Do something good. Then the next. Keep doing it.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
You have a way with words. You sound right, even when you're wrong.
Let me ask you - if I was after a sleepy Christianity where everything is easy, would I have spent thousands and thousands of hours studying?
My views on thanatology have been formulated with some rigor, both in Scripture, and outside it. They are expressed most clearly in 1Enoch 22:
[Chapter 22]
1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. 3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.' I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ?' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.' 8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
In this place, our certainty that we will in fact become like Him when we see Him, this is what leads us to purifying ourselves, which is what we want, isn't that right?
Every man that has this hope - Biblical "hope" is the expectation of what will come based on our faith. That is to say, Jesus promised us resurrection, and I believe Jesus, so I'm expecting to be resurrected.
Here, we are promised that when we see Him, we will be like Him. I believe Him, so I believe this is true. My hope therefore is that when I see Him, I will be like Him.
And every man that has this hope purifies himself, even as He - Jesus - is pure.
Knowing this is real, knowing this is permanent, this knowing, expectation, this hope, everyone who has this purifies themself. These two things are inextricably linked in this passage.
Much love!
Hope and certainty aren't the same thing. One is about what's possible. The other is just an expectation.
You purify yourself because you hope to appear with Jesus. Otherwise, you can simply expect to appear with Jesus whether you're pure or not.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
You are doing everything right...but still you are not fully understanding. Converting the flesh into would-be righteousness is not the task at hand. The gospel of Christ Jesus is to be a completely new and different spirit body creation born of the spirit of God--not a whitewash of the flesh. Yes, we are to take our old flesh bodies under subjection of our new spirit body--but the two are completely different bodies.
The struggle that you describe is what Paul also struggled--but He taught as Jesus did, of two different bodies: one that still sins if we are weak and dies, and the other that will never die. This was and is a new existence never before experienced by mankind--that is, sharing the same space with our old body of sin while having a new spirit body within us that knows better and wants nothing to do with sin. "For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?" But it is in that state that God has entrusted the building of His church--"in weakness."
In other words, to try to transform the flesh into being "perfect"--is not at all the plan of God. On the contrary--He has determined to put it to death physically, and literally--and save our souls by the greater works of the spirit...which is what we are to be found doing--not playing dress-up with sin. That is just another form of Law--which saves not. But no, we are to take our flesh bodies under subjection of our new spirit bodies, and reign with Christ in the service of building His church throughout our generations, unto the end. It is for this reason we are told to "endure."
So then...the idea of Once Saved, Always Saved, is not allowing sin to continue, but is the Spirit saying, "I do" to Christ--and "I AM."
It's not that I think you have to just whitewash the flesh. Im just seeking to do what Scripture says instead of thinking that its impossible to even do. If it says make no provision for the flesh, that's what I do. I'm not sure if Im missing what you're saying.
Are you saying being a new creation in Christ means we won't struggle with sin? I'd agree except I still think it's possible to put the dead flesh back on and sin. That's why we're to avoid tempting scenarios.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Good point!
For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? Romans 8:24
Unfortunately, Paul goes on to speak figuratively as if referring to one body that is transformed and made new. But he also teaches the opposite, and we are expected to "spiritually discern" "rightly dividing"--the whole counsel of scripture, which confirms the born again words of Christ (Son of David) and even Solomon (son of David) who declared, "the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."
Two different births, two different bodies, one that dies, and one that will never die.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
The Law taught that it was impossible.
Making no provision for the flesh is good regarding making sin a provision, but even God has made provision for the flesh. By which we workout (walkout) our own salvation--which is not to say--we do anything to save ourselves--but rather that we are sentenced to walk this valley of the shadow of death and confirm our eternal choice of "life and death, blessing and cursing." The provision then, is that by sin and by the Law, we know of ourselves what it is that we choose--and then "Blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection"--having been born again of the spirit of God, that for us, "to live is Christ."
Which then, Paul does not condone the struggle of sin in "we who are alive and remain" (alive in God, but remaining in sinful flesh and in the world), but explains it as a reality of those who would be like Christ if they only could. But only One can, and it is only in Him that we too are without sin. But while we are yet in the body of sin and death--only One finishes righteously--and only we also, if we are "in Him."
I would suggest you do a word study on the word used there, and it's related words.
Biblical "hope" is not the same as our wistful, maybe kind of hope.
Regardless, this passage makes a clear declaration.
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
In in fact you are God's child now, you can know that when He appears, you shall be like Him. This is not a qualified statement other than that you are His child.
If you are His child now, this will happen.
Much love!
If you are His child is a conditional statement. You also have to endure to the end. It's not automatic.
Modern western Christianity is simply obsessed with assuring people of salvation. And them hyper fixating on whether they get to heaven or not. I think the focus should be obeying God in the present. Let Him sort it out on judgement day when we each give an account of our lives.
The same word is used here:
Romans 8:19-21 KJV
19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
God Himself has a hope - a certain expectation - that His plan will happen, that His children shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption. Not maybe, not "oh, I sure hope that happens", rather, it's a sure thing, that's not happened yet, but we know it will, because God says so.
In 1 John 3, God says so, that His children will be like Jesus when they see Him. No other qualifiers. It will happen. This is our hope.
Much love!
That was my statement. Here is John's:
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Are you a child of God? If you are, then this will apply to you:
we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Now we are the sons of God . . . When He appears we shall be like Him.
This is what God says, flat out, unambiguous, and no additional qualifiers. The only question that remains is whether we will believe it.
You've added "if we endure to the end", however, that's not included in these statements. If you add it, you are doing just that, adding it.
Much love!
Jesus said we had to endure to the end.
Matthew 24:13
King James Version
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
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