Who are the Saved?

[marks]

Modern western Christianity is simply obsessed with assuring people of salvation.

I don't know whether I'd characterize "modern western Christianity" in any particular way, nonetheless, you and I are simply two people. I think it's more important what you and I think ourselves, then whether we perceive "modern western Christianity" in any particular way.

I'm just reading the Scriptures here, and showing you what they say, and am calling attention to things they don't say as well.

My first focus is in being assured whether I actually know God or not. Many will come to Him in their day of judgment claiming to have done all the right works, but they never actually had a relationship with Jesus. It's not about what we do, but who we know, and if we've joined His family.

Once we know Him, we can begin to do those things that please Him. But faith is first, not works. Without faith, it's impossible to please God.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus said we had to endure to the end.

Matthew 24:13

King James Version
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

You hang in there sister. People tend to overthrow the basic verses by selecting a verse they think cancels others. And still others have outlandish notions about what they think grace is and the gospel is.

The truth holds all verses in proper balance.

Nobody can win a race unless they complete it till the end.

 

[marks]

Jesus said we had to endure to the end.

Matthew 24:13

King James Version
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Keep everything in context. Jesus also said, what you do, do quickly, but each of these have a context.

This verse in 1 John 3 is explicit, no ambiguity. No other verse in Scripture will contradict it. You cannot rightfully claim that while John wrote that if you are a child of God now, that you will be like Him then, and at the same time say, that's only true if you "endure to the end".

That "enduring to the end" hasn't happened yet for either you or I, and even so, we still have His promise, "a child of God now, you shall be like Him then".

In fact the statement of enduring to the end, in it's context, is written to those who will endure the great tribulation, and that when Jesus comes, He will rescue all those who remain alive.

Scripture does not and will not contradict itself. God spoke in complete harmony.

Not everyone believes this, nor is everyone sincere in what they say. My counsel is that each of us weigh very carefully to whom we will listen, and first and foremost, to know exactly what the Scriptures state, making certain we are holding to what God says, word for word, without mentally changing the meaning in order to make it fit to our other ideas.

I can have a certain view, like that we "must endure to the end" of our lives, somehow "proving" to God that He has regenerated us, and made us His children, or however one may think of it, and then come to a verse like:

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

which makes a similar kind of statement as in 1 John. Here, we read that this part applies to those who are risen with Christ (cp Romans 6), that we are dead, our life hid with Christ in God. He promise to those who are raised with Him, who are hid with Him, that when He appears, these SHALL appear with Him in glory.

We have to be able to accept these clearly stated teachings, or in this case, this is prophecy, exactly as they are written, without mentally negating any of it by adding things that are not there.

Any time we find we are not holding to the particular thing a passage states, we need to go back and find where we went wrong, so that we truly can hold all Scriptures in harmony.

Much love!

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Keep everything in context. Jesus also said, what you do, do quickly, but each of these have a context.

This verse in 1 John 3 is explicit, no ambiguity. No other verse in Scripture will contradict it. You cannot rightfully claim that while John wrote that if you are a child of God now, that you will be like Him then, and at the same time say, that's only true if you "endure to the end".

That "enduring to the end" hasn't happened yet for either you or I, and even so, we still have His promise, "a child of God now, you shall be like Him then".

In fact the statement of enduring to the end, in it's context, is written to those who will endure the great tribulation, and that when Jesus comes, He will rescue all those who remain alive.

Scripture does not and will not contradict itself. God spoke in complete harmony.

Not everyone believes this, nor is everyone sincere in what they say.

Much love!

Since you believe 1 John 3, do you agree we ought not to sin at all?

1 John 3:9

King James Version
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[shepherdsword]

I don't know whether I'd characterize "modern western Christianity" in any particular way,

I think "Babylon" is a good characterization

 

[marks]

I think "Babylon" is a good characterization

Broad brush over-generalization. I don't see it as useful. But to each their own.

Much love!

 

[mailmandan]

Who are the saved ?
++++
If referencing to 2026 then the answer is simple.
1 Cor 15.1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Those who believe in the death and burial and resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.

Amen! Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[marks]

Since you believe 1 John 3, do you agree we ought not to sin at all?

1 John 3:9

King James Version
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Not only that we ought not to sin, but that we can actually live without any known sin, only that we cannot do so on our own, and require God's help by His Spirit to do so.

We are admonished, if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. We are told, if we walk in the Spirit, we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Let us walk in the Spirit, and not fulfill our fleshy lusts! May we trust in God for His power to fulfill this in our lives! Our part is to choose righteousness in our thoughts and actions, His part is to empower us to make those choices and walk in them.

Philippians 2:12-13 KJV
12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Much love!

 

[shepherdsword]

Not only that we ought not to sin, but that we can actually live without any known sin, only that we cannot do so on our own, and require God's help by His Spirit to do so.

We are admonished, if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. We are told, if we walk in the Spirit, we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Let us walk in the Spirit, and not fulfill our fleshy lusts! May we trust in God for His power to fulfill this in our lives! Our part is to choose righteousness in our thoughts and actions, His part is to empower us to make those choices and walk in them.

Philippians 2:12-13 KJV
12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Much love!

This is actually a good post

 

[mailmandan]

Biblical "hope" is not the same as our wistful, maybe kind of hope.

Amen! Biblical "hope" is not some cross your fingers maybe it will happen kind of hope. Unlike the English word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

Strong's Greek: 1680. ἐλπίς (elpis) -- expectation, hope

If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

 

[TitusTwoWife]

In other words, to try to transform the flesh into being "perfect"--is not at all the plan of God. On the contrary--He has determined to put it to death physically, and literally--and save our souls by the greater works of the spirit...which is what we are to be found doing--not playing dress-up with sin. That is just another form of Law--which saves not. But no, we are to take our flesh bodies under subjection of our new spirit bodies, and reign with Christ in the service of building His church throughout our generations, unto the end. It is for this reason we are told to "endure."

What do you believe is "playing dress-up with sin" vs greater works of the spirit? Wouldn't getting rid of sin and obeying God always be a greater work of the Spirit?

On Judgement Day, is God going to look at believers who relieved the poor and widows and disqualify them from New Jeruselum because they did it in the flesh?

 

[marks]

This is actually a good post

This is a core belief of mine.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

What do you believe is "playing dress-up with sin" vs greater works of the spirit? Wouldn't getting rid of sin and obeying God always be a greater work of the Spirit?

On Judgement Day, is God going to look at believers who relieved the poor and widows and disqualify them from New Jeruselum because they did it in the flesh?

You don't see it, but you have answered yourself--greater works of the Spirit...are of the Spirit, not of the flesh, not of the old body of sin and death.

As for Judgement Day, if we walk and work now in the flesh, we will only begin to walk in the Spirit after the Judgement, and miss out on the greater works of the Spirit during these times wherein we are given spiritual gifts to use to profit the kingdom, not to bury our talents in worldly works. Such "is the high calling of God in Christ."

Meanwhile, good works are not wrong, but good--but if our motivation is self-endurance--we rob from God. That is not what is meant by "endure unto the end." But rather, that being left to the sufferings and struggles of this world and being coupled with our old body of sin and death, we should be encouraged to endure until our work is done--just as Christ "who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross." Which is to say--those who say they will not sin, deny to suffer as Christ suffered.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with"--not preserved as without sin.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

You don't see it, but you have answered yourself--greater works of the Spirit...are of the Spirit, not of the flesh, not of the old body of sin and death.

As for Judgement Day, if we walk and work now in the flesh, we will only begin to walk in the Spirit after the Judgement, and miss out on the greater works of the Spirit during these times wherein we are given spiritual gifts to use to profit the kingdom, not to bury our talents in worldly works. Such "is the high calling of God in Christ."

Meanwhile, good works are not wrong, but good--but if our motivation is self-endurance--we rob from God. That is not what is meant by "endure unto the end." But rather, that being left to the sufferings and struggles of this world and being coupled with our old body of sin and death, we should be encouraged to endure until our work is done--just as Christ "who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross." Which is to say--those who say they will not sin, deny to suffer as Christ suffered.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with"--not preserved as without sin.

Galatians 5:19-21

King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If youre not doing the things listed above but are walking in the fruit, isn't that working in the Spirit?

 

[ScottA]

You hang in there sister. People tend to overthrow the basic verses by selecting a verse they think cancels others. And still others have outlandish notions about what they think grace is and the gospel is.

The truth holds all verses in proper balance.

Nobody can win a race unless they complete it till the end.

That is not a proper understanding of winning the race set before us.

What is set before us is Christ, and for those born again of the spirit of God, it means remaining in this body of death with our new spirit body within to struggle and endure to the end, while doing the good works of Christ with spiritual gifts. Spiritual, acts by the Spirit--not the flesh. That is how we are to finish the race--not by our own endurance, but by His--the power of God, not by the conversion of the flesh expecting that it can do what the scriptures say only One can and does.

As for those who have not received the Holy Spirit (evidenced by not knowing by whose power the race is won), they have no work to do unless or until called. At which time, it is no more them (either) that successfully fulfill the works of the Spirit, let alone stop sinning--but is Christ in them--without which they/we can do nothing. Because the flesh is not "saved", but "done away with."

 

[ProDeo]

Since the discussion evolved into a classic OSAS vs NOSAS discussion allow me a related question.

I always wrestled with the below passage, in context the exact meaning of verse 12 -

Joh 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

So, believing in Jesus alone does not make you a child of God.

But when you believe in Jesus you have the right to become.

And you are supposed to do something with that right to become.

And John does not say how.

Unless you believe you can force yourself (using that right) to become born of God.

And I don't believe it works that way, being born again IMO is a life changing experience from God.

So, how about using that right ?

Puzzled....

 

[ScottA]

Galatians 5:19-21

King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If youre not doing the things listed above but are walking in the fruit, isn't that working in the Spirit?

It very well could be. But Paul made sure to also include everything he ever said that was not written there...which is a bunch.

But do her yourself...you are speaking of spiritual things, not things of the flesh. That difference resides in two different bodies, and just as Christ bore our sins in His flesh, we also bear our own, even unto the end...which is why we are encouraged to endure it--not because we can completely walk above all that we would like to be done with--but because we can't. Only Jesus could. And that is why we must be in Him and Him in us to be saved.

In other words, the call is not to personally overcome our sin, but to be rescued from it...by our Savior, the only One to actually do what you and Epi' have been suggesting could and should be done perhaps by anyone who would be saved.

 

[Episkopos]

That is not a proper understanding of winning the race set before us.

What is set before us is Christ, and for those born again of the spirit of God, it means remaining in this body of death with our new spirit body within to struggle and endure to the end, while doing the good works of Christ with spiritual gifts. Spiritual, acts by the Spirit--not the flesh. That is how we are to finish the race--not by our own endurance, but by His--the power of God, not by the conversion of the flesh expecting that it can do what the scriptures say only One can and does.

As for those who have not received the Holy Spirit (evidenced by not knowing by whose power the race is won), they have no work to do unless or until called. At which time, it is no more them (either) that successfully fulfill the works of the Spirit, let alone stop sinning--but is Christ in them--without which they/we can do nothing. Because the flesh is not "saved", but "done away with."

This is hyper grace twaddle. Work out your own salvation (of the soul) with fear and trembling.

 

[sondring7]

Amen! Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Thank you mail, it's heartening to see those here who understands how we are saved in 2026