Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[PinSeeker]

No, it's a written, quoted, recorded "thing."

Oh you’re arguing about that, now. Cool. No, I have not disrespected you. You not liking something someone says to you doesn’t necessarily amount to disrespect, Scott.

I shall be as it is written.

<chuckles> What does this even mean? Ohhhhh, I get it... So yes, I agree, we all "shall be"... <chuckles> We who have (already, in this life) been born again of the Spirit shall be completely of God, completely conformed to the image of Christ, physical body and all. <smile> And there it is again: saved... but also being saved, so now, or already... and not yet.

But you have unsoundly not included all of what is written...and that is written of also--you even quoted it.

In your… humble <chuckle> …opinion. And that’s cool, too, I guess… <smile>

Goodness gracious. Grace and peace to you, Scott. Especially grace…

 

[sondring7]

Precious friend, you will have to wait until the pre-trib rapture and ask Christ for "ONE Scripture reference"
to make His Sound Doctrine, Meanwhile There are Over 100 Plain and Clear Scriptures Here for it, eh?:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Of course, if that's too much work to prayerfully and Carefully 'study', then, please Be Blessed!:

View attachment 90866

-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[The Light]

As I have said, Jesus gave ONLY 7 Main Signs leading up to His future coming in His Olivet discourse, and they are the SEALS of Revelation 6. I even have a study somewhere on this Forum showing their parallel. Jesus' coming to gather His Church only happens on the LAST TRUMPET, like Apostle Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

Even you yourself said that Jesus returns at the 6th seal. That has nothing to do with the 7th seal as it is not opened until the 6th seal is complete. Jesus will be in heaven with the great multitude when the 7th seal is opened.

You are simply trapped in sequential numbering for how John was given to see the events. Not everything John was given is written down in the exact order the events happen.

Ok. I can buy that. However, the things that are written in order happen in order or there is no point showing the order.

This becomes obvious when one notices all the islands being moved in their places on the 6th Seal parallels that same event written on the 7th Vial at Rev.16:20. Some Churches simply believe all the events are in order that John wrote them down, that ALL... the Seals happen first, the ALL the Trumpets happen next, and then ALL the Vials happen last.

What is obvious is that you understand that Jesus returns at the 6th seal, but somehow, you want to put this return in the 7th seal because you don't understand what is happening. It's the sledgehammer approach. Just beat everything into the order that you want regardless of what the Word says. This is why you do not understand endtimes.

 

[ewq1938]

The problem with your line of thought is that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

It's not over at the opening of the 6th seal. It only ends at the 7th trump. The 6th seal describes 7th trump events LONG before the events happen just like in the OD where, again, the events are described but do not happen anywhere near the description.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Church will be in heaven before the great tribulation begins.

No such thing as a Pre-Trib rapture found is scripture as you claim, post supporting scripture, waiting?

 

[Truth7t7]

Even you yourself said that Jesus returns at the 6th seal. That has nothing to do with the 7th seal as it is not opened until the 6th seal is complete. Jesus will be in heaven with the great multitude when the 7th seal is opened.

Ok. I can buy that. However, the things that are written in order happen in order or there is no point showing the order.


What is obvious is that you understand that Jesus returns at the 6th seal, but somehow, you want to put this return in the 7th seal because you don't understand what is happening. It's the sledgehammer approach. Just beat everything into the order that you want regardless of what the Word says. This is why you do not understand endtimes.

Jesus returns immediately after the great tribulation, simple and clear

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[The Light]

Jesus returns immediately after the great tribulation, simple and clear

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Exactly. Good job.

Jesus returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. This occurs at the 6th seal. It is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven as we are raptured before the great tribulation, and 12 tribes are gathered from the earth at the 6th seal. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. These two folds become one-fold which is the great multitude. Believers are in heaven during the 7th seal wrath of God as believers are not appointed to wrath.

At the end of wrath, ONE YEAR later, Jesus returns for the Day of the Lord which is Armageddon.

 

[The Light]

No such thing as a Pre-Trib rapture found is scripture as you claim, post supporting scripture, waiting?

No problem.

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[The Light]

No such thing as a Pre-Trib rapture found is scripture as you claim, post supporting scripture, waiting?

The Church will escape ALL THESE THINGS that come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Davy]

I don't know how you draw that conclusion. I have never seen a pretribber or only one post tribber that understands that the wrath of God lasts one year before Jesus returns at armageddon.

Like I said before, the Vials 1-6 happens while the beast kingdom and beast king ("dragon") is STILL IN POWER OVER THE EARTH. But NOT on the final 7th VIAL, because that LAST VIAL ends Satan's beast kingdom, for that is when Jesus returns to destroy it. And it is THAT final 7th VIAL which Apostle Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 because Paul was giving events that occur ONLY on the very LAST DAY of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night," and the "sudden destruction" upon the deceived on earth that will be saying, "Peace and safety."

I can't make it any more simple for you than that.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

All the of the tribulation spoken of in the Bible, yes... which encompasses the bringing in of Gentile believers and the removal of the partial hardening now on Israel... in this way all of God's Israel ~ all of His elect ~ will be saved (Romans 9, 11:25-26) and Satan's "little season," in which He is loosed. It doesn't seem like it to us, for sure, but all of this time of tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect... (Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20). However... <smile>

The Church is gathered from heaven as we are raptured before the great tribulation... believers are not appointed to wrath.

...there is no "rapture." There is no need for Christ's church to be... removed, or taken... anywhere, by anyone. It is absolutely true, of course, that believers are not appointed to ~ will not be subject to ~ God's wrath. But God will never pour out His wrath on any part of His creation here on earth. His wrath will be the result of the final judgment and administered only to the unrepentant, those on Jesus's left during the final judgment (Matthew 25:41-46)... yes, unbelievers... in the form of the "second death" of Revelation 20. They will depart into this place of outer darkness, of weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 7:21-23, 8:12, 22:13, 25:30) ~ into eternal punishment, having been resurrected to it (John 5:28-29). This eternal punishment is God's wrath, the image of which in Revelation 20 is the "lake of fire." There is no need for Christ's church to be... removed, or taken... anywhere, by anyone. After the final judgment, heaven will be brought down to us, all will be made new, and heaven and earth will again be one. (Revelation21:1-8),

At the end of wrath, ONE YEAR later, Jesus returns for the Day of the Lord which is Armageddon.

Yeah, no; see above. When Jesus returns, He will... finish Satan... <smile> ...and conquer sin and death once and for all. And then... yeah, see above. There is no need for... gymnastics... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

The Church will escape ALL THESE THINGS that come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual one.

 

[ewq1938]

No problem.

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

7 churches are mentioned of the Christians in the first century yet pre-trib takes one line from one letter and uses it as if this one thing somehow proves the entire church will be raptured before the great tribulation. That's horribly bad exegesis.

The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

2, The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation.

So which is it? No tribulation or some? Pre-trib is inconsistent and misleading when they cite Rev 3:10 and not also Rev 2:10.

 

[Truth7t7]

Exactly. Good job.

Jesus returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. This occurs at the 6th seal. It is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven as we are raptured before the great tribulation, and 12 tribes are gathered from the earth at the 6th seal. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. These two folds become one-fold which is the great multitude. Believers are in heaven during the 7th seal wrath of God as believers are not appointed to wrath.

At the end of wrath, ONE YEAR later, Jesus returns for the Day of the Lord which is Armageddon.

Your Claim Is 100% "False"

When Jesus returns its fire and final judgement time (The End), why do you disregard the very clear and simple scripture below "Sad"!

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Truth7t7]

No problem.

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 3:10 doesn't suggest or even hint at a pre-trib rapture, it's your private interpretation adding to scripture, it's that simple

 

[Truth7t7]

The Church will escape ALL THESE THINGS that come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Once again not one word in Luke 21:34-36 below even suggest or hints at a pre-trib rapture, your imagination is working overtime

It teaches (That DAY) and its the second coming (The End) "The Last Day"

This (Last Day) will come upon the unsaved world like a woman travailing in birth, suddenly

Luke 21:34-36KJV
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[The Light]

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual one.

Why would you bother to quote this?

Why would you compare temptation of sin to the Great Tribulation?

Always flawed logic.

 

[The Light]

Your Claim Is 100% "False"

When Jesus returns its fire and final judgement time (The End), why do you disregard the very clear and simple scripture below "Sad"!

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Why would you compare 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 21:1-5 to the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24?

Do you not understand that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal and it is a HARVEST?

Do you not understand the difference between a harvest and destruction?

Here is another view of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

[The Light]

Rev 3:10 doesn't suggest or even hint at a pre-trib rapture, it's your private interpretation adding to scripture, it's that simple

Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

All that dwell upon the earth will face the hour of temptation. But I will keep you from the hour of temptation..

We won't be dwelling upon the earth. He will come for His bride and His reward is with Him.

Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Seems cut and dried. It says what it says.

 

[The Light]

Once again not one word in Luke 21:34-36 below even suggest or hints at a pre-trib rapture, your imagination is working overtime

It teaches (That DAY) and its the second coming (The End) "The Last Day"

This (Last Day) will come upon the unsaved world like a woman travailing in birth, suddenly

Luke 21:34-36KJV
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Right. The Church will escape ALL THESE THINGS.

The twelve tribes across the earth will go through the great tribulation and then be raptured at the 6th seal.

Believers are not appointed to wrath, but you have believers on the earth during the wrath of God.